Yellow Over Yellow vs. Yellow Over Green -- A Safety Issue

[CrazyDiamond]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

.......Now, if we were to use your system and one of those lights were burnt out, the crew would never know it unless the signal was "dark" (no light of any color). Bazoooooom, there goes your train right by the signal and into an accident.........

I've got myself thinking again. First the scenario:

We got a crew running a train down some very 'foreign' track....they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. They've 'downloaded' the books, schedules, tables, etc, and for the most part things make sense, but once in a while they get kinda confused.

Anyway they are approaching a junction which has a three signal heads. However the top head is burnt out, so instead of seeing three heads, they see two. This junction has not background lighting, the area is fairly wooded with trees and bursh, and maybe in terms of documentation it is also simplied. Another train is approaching the junction, or perhaps has just left and stopped. The first train, will be using the same 'exit' route as the 2nd. Would the crew not seeing two lit heads instead of the three give them incorrect information.....and thus lead them into disaster? Instead of seeing R/G/G (Rule 418 - Proceed, medium speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at medium speed) they instead see G/G (Rule 405 - Proceed).

What prevents scenarios like this??? I know this scenario may not be technically possible, but I think ye all see my point.......just trying to learn here. [:I]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CrazyDiamond

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

.......Now, if we were to use your system and one of those lights were burnt out, the crew would never know it unless the signal was "dark" (no light of any color). Bazoooooom, there goes your train right by the signal and into an accident.........

I've got myself thinking again. First the scenario:

We got a crew running a train down some very 'foreign' track....they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. They've 'downloaded' the books, schedules, tables, etc, and for the most part things make sense, but once in a while they get kinda confused.

Anyway they are approaching a junction which has a three signal heads. However the top head is burnt out, so instead of seeing three heads, they see two. This junction has not background lighting, the area is fairly wooded with trees and bursh, and maybe in terms of documentation it is also simplied. Another train is approaching the junction, or perhaps has just left and stopped. The first train, will be using the same 'exit' route as the 2nd. Would the crew not seeing two lit heads instead of the three give them incorrect information.....and thus lead them into disaster? Instead of seeing R/G/G (Rule 418 - Proceed, medium speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at medium speed) they instead see G/G (Rule 405 - Proceed).

What prevents scenarios like this??? I know this scenario may not be technically possible, but I think ye all see my point.......just trying to learn here. [:I]

You call for a pilot in the first place, and don't end up getting into that situation.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CrazyDiamond

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

.......Now, if we were to use your system and one of those lights were burnt out, the crew would never know it unless the signal was "dark" (no light of any color). Bazoooooom, there goes your train right by the signal and into an accident.........

I've got myself thinking again. First the scenario:

We got a crew running a train down some very 'foreign' track....they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. They've 'downloaded' the books, schedules, tables, etc, and for the most part things make sense, but once in a while they get kinda confused.

Anyway they are approaching a junction which has a three signal heads. However the top head is burnt out, so instead of seeing three heads, they see two. This junction has not background lighting, the area is fairly wooded with trees and bursh, and maybe in terms of documentation it is also simplied. Another train is approaching the junction, or perhaps has just left and stopped. The first train, will be using the same 'exit' route as the 2nd. Would the crew not seeing two lit heads instead of the three give them incorrect information.....and thus lead them into disaster? Instead of seeing R/G/G (Rule 418 - Proceed, medium speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at medium speed) they instead see G/G (Rule 405 - Proceed).

What prevents scenarios like this??? I know this scenario may not be technically possible, but I think ye all see my point.......just trying to learn here. [:I]

You state that you have made an extensive study of signals world wide. So, how come you are asking these questions? You should already know the answers.

You just proved the point of my post. A junction is protected by Absolute Signals. As the name implies, its indication are absolute and must have direct dispatcher intervention for the train to do anything other than obey the signal. If you are not qualified for the section of railroad involved, you WILL have a pilot with you who is qualified. Otherwise, you will know the territory and know that when you see only two heads of three lit, you have a problem.

And the rules (FRA Rule, by the by) state that should you come upon a signal that is supposed to be lit and is not lit, you stop. Right now. No questions asked. If you have an Absolute Signal involved, then you MUST have the dispatcher involved. If it is an intermediate signal, after stopping and waiting for the perscribed period of time and listening and looking for any other movement and not finding any and after walking your train to inspect if for air line separation, physical separation between cars or for derailed wheels and finding none of these, you may proceed at restricted speed to the next signal.

Lastly, at an interlocking (which a CTC Jct would be), the signals display route and occupancy in preferance to speed instructions. Thus, your three head signal would display, from top to bottom, Main Track indication, 1st diverging track indication, 2nd diverging track indication. If you have been lined for the 2nd diverging route, you will have one of these signal indications --

R-R-R (stop and stay)

R-R-Flashing R (proceed at restricted speed without stopping prepared to take 2nd diverging route)

R-R-Y (proceed at reduced speed (sometimes with an actual max speed mandatory) prepared to take 2nd diverging route and be prepared to stop at the next signal which may be displaying red)

R-R-Flashing Yellow (same as solid "Y" except it would be the second signal, not the next)

R-R-G (proceed prepared to take 2nd diverging route).

If you have encountered an intermediate signal, the indication will provide speed information in preferance to block occupancy information which has the dual function of keeping an actual separation and keeping maximum traffic fluidity.

[CrazyDiamond]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo


You state that you have made an extensive study of signals world wide. So, how come you are asking these questions? You should already know the answers.

I did not say I did an extensive study of signals world wide! I said I did lots of reading of signals worldwide, and I also did not say I did lots of reading of railroad operations worldwide. I also did say I am (still) trying to learn. I could make a simple statement like "in a basic block system, a yellow aspect means the block in front of the signal is clear, but the next block is occupied, and the train is to proceed at a reduced speed", and I'm sure you could find flaws in that text too! I could make a statement about Germans Hp or H1 systems and I'm sure I would ask a dumb question.

Regardless, thank you for for additional comments. [:)]

[dehusman]

CrazyDiamond said:
"We got a crew running a train down some very 'foreign' track....they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. "

Then they would need a pilot, an employee who is knowledgeable about the territory.

If there was a train ahead "that just left" then they probably wouldn't get the signal you indicated. As far as having different signal systems, remember that crews operate on more or less the same territory all the time. They don't roam all over the country. even if there are several systems they have to deal with, they are the same systems day after day.

Dave H.

[ValleyX]

Crazy Diamond, let us make it very clear, a crew does not "just" go running down a track they don't normally go on. It's not like you're driving to the store and decide to take a different route. When a crew operates over a route different from that which they normally take and they've not seen that route, they ask for and get a "pilot", a person that is familiar with the route and the rules and special instructions of that route. That person operates the engine if the engineer is not qualified.

[AlcoRS11Nut]

turnout speeds are listed in the subdivision's timetable....if they either don't know the speed off hand, or don't look....then they are just asking for T-R-O-U-B-L-E.

[Rodney Beck]

Yellow over yellow or flashing yellow on BNSF is approach medium that is telling me the engineer to do this as per signal rule 9.1.6, proceed prepair to pass the next signal not exceeding 40 mph and be prepaired to enter diverging route at procsribed speed i.e. 30, 35 or 40 mph depending on the speed through the crossovers for the subdivision. Yellow over a hard green is advance approach and means this, proceed prepair to pass next signal not exceeding 50mph and be prepaired to enter diverging route at proscribed speed signal rule 9.1.5 now theese I stated apply to BNSF which we use GCOR NORAC could be a little bit different.

Rodney

[CrazyDiamond]

Thank you everyone for your answers. Soon I will copy and paste into my own notes so that later when I start my own model RR I will have a lot of good info to help me!

Cheers,
C.D.

[route_rock]

Well said! Yellow over green here means go 60 basicly and be prepared to go through turnout at x speed. Get out your timetable or SSI and go from there.
Course i aint got room to talk as I am on dark territory now and a foriegn line to boot! TWC and hope like hell everyone is doing their job.

[jchnhtfd]

Several of the guys who actually drive these things have mentioned it, and its importance. I don't drive these things -- never have, unfortunately -- but I had to have it in a different way, as does MudChicken. To Emphasize: you absolutely have to know your territory. There is a good deal more to that than knowing what the signals are, and what they mean. You have to know where the curves are, and the speed limits on them. You have to know that East Podunk, the little down up the liine has a reduced speed -- and the local roadmaster likes to lurk there. You have to know where some of the bridges are. You have to know your grades. If you are running on a caution you have to know your visibilities. Can't possibly signal all of it!

And as has been said -- if you don't know the territory, it would be well to have a pilot... !

[wabash1]

crazy diamond

you dont just jump on a engine and go running some where your lic states what track you are qualified on. if you are detoured there will be a pilot given to your train. it should be a engineer as you can give the train to him to run. must carriers will send conductors out to do this job . When we say you know your territory its hills curves little humps or a little dip that cars will "sit down in" and tear your train apart. the signals are just a small part of the big picture. and you know when your with a good engineer he is smooth and makes it look easy.

[CrazyDiamond]

Thank you all, I have a much better understanding now.

[Rodney Beck]

Amen to that wabash1 not smooth yet but working on that I have been set up for 8 months now and every train is learning time because no 2 trains of the same tonnage operate the same.

Rodney