Yellow Over Yellow vs. Yellow Over Green -- A Safety Issue

[Rodney Beck]

Amen to that wabash1 not smooth yet but working on that I have been set up for 8 months now and every train is learning time because no 2 trains of the same tonnage operate the same.

Rodney

[CrazyDiamond]

Thank you all, I have a much better understanding now.

[wabash1]

crazy diamond

you dont just jump on a engine and go running some where your lic states what track you are qualified on. if you are detoured there will be a pilot given to your train. it should be a engineer as you can give the train to him to run. must carriers will send conductors out to do this job . When we say you know your territory its hills curves little humps or a little dip that cars will "sit down in" and tear your train apart. the signals are just a small part of the big picture. and you know when your with a good engineer he is smooth and makes it look easy.

[jchnhtfd]

Several of the guys who actually drive these things have mentioned it, and its importance. I don't drive these things -- never have, unfortunately -- but I had to have it in a different way, as does MudChicken. To Emphasize: you absolutely have to know your territory. There is a good deal more to that than knowing what the signals are, and what they mean. You have to know where the curves are, and the speed limits on them. You have to know that East Podunk, the little down up the liine has a reduced speed -- and the local roadmaster likes to lurk there. You have to know where some of the bridges are. You have to know your grades. If you are running on a caution you have to know your visibilities. Can't possibly signal all of it!

And as has been said -- if you don't know the territory, it would be well to have a pilot... !

[route_rock]

Well said! Yellow over green here means go 60 basicly and be prepared to go through turnout at x speed. Get out your timetable or SSI and go from there.
Course i aint got room to talk as I am on dark territory now and a foriegn line to boot! TWC and hope like hell everyone is doing their job.

[CrazyDiamond]

Thank you everyone for your answers. Soon I will copy and paste into my own notes so that later when I start my own model RR I will have a lot of good info to help me!

Cheers,
C.D.

[Rodney Beck]

Yellow over yellow or flashing yellow on BNSF is approach medium that is telling me the engineer to do this as per signal rule 9.1.6, proceed prepair to pass the next signal not exceeding 40 mph and be prepaired to enter diverging route at procsribed speed i.e. 30, 35 or 40 mph depending on the speed through the crossovers for the subdivision. Yellow over a hard green is advance approach and means this, proceed prepair to pass next signal not exceeding 50mph and be prepaired to enter diverging route at proscribed speed signal rule 9.1.5 now theese I stated apply to BNSF which we use GCOR NORAC could be a little bit different.

Rodney

[AlcoRS11Nut]

turnout speeds are listed in the subdivision's timetable....if they either don't know the speed off hand, or don't look....then they are just asking for T-R-O-U-B-L-E.

[ValleyX]

Crazy Diamond, let us make it very clear, a crew does not "just" go running down a track they don't normally go on. It's not like you're driving to the store and decide to take a different route. When a crew operates over a route different from that which they normally take and they've not seen that route, they ask for and get a "pilot", a person that is familiar with the route and the rules and special instructions of that route. That person operates the engine if the engineer is not qualified.

[dehusman]

CrazyDiamond said:
"We got a crew running a train down some very 'foreign' track....they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. "

Then they would need a pilot, an employee who is knowledgeable about the territory.

If there was a train ahead "that just left" then they probably wouldn't get the signal you indicated. As far as having different signal systems, remember that crews operate on more or less the same territory all the time. They don't roam all over the country. even if there are several systems they have to deal with, they are the same systems day after day.

Dave H.

[CrazyDiamond]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo


You state that you have made an extensive study of signals world wide. So, how come you are asking these questions? You should already know the answers.

I did not say I did an extensive study of signals world wide! I said I did lots of reading of signals worldwide, and I also did not say I did lots of reading of railroad operations worldwide. I also did say I am (still) trying to learn. I could make a simple statement like "in a basic block system, a yellow aspect means the block in front of the signal is clear, but the next block is occupied, and the train is to proceed at a reduced speed", and I'm sure you could find flaws in that text too! I could make a statement about Germans Hp or H1 systems and I'm sure I would ask a dumb question.

Regardless, thank you for for additional comments. [:)]

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CrazyDiamond

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

.......Now, if we were to use your system and one of those lights were burnt out, the crew would never know it unless the signal was "dark" (no light of any color). Bazoooooom, there goes your train right by the signal and into an accident.........

I've got myself thinking again. First the scenario:

We got a crew running a train down some very 'foreign' track....they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. They've 'downloaded' the books, schedules, tables, etc, and for the most part things make sense, but once in a while they get kinda confused.

Anyway they are approaching a junction which has a three signal heads. However the top head is burnt out, so instead of seeing three heads, they see two. This junction has not background lighting, the area is fairly wooded with trees and bursh, and maybe in terms of documentation it is also simplied. Another train is approaching the junction, or perhaps has just left and stopped. The first train, will be using the same 'exit' route as the 2nd. Would the crew not seeing two lit heads instead of the three give them incorrect information.....and thus lead them into disaster? Instead of seeing R/G/G (Rule 418 - Proceed, medium speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at medium speed) they instead see G/G (Rule 405 - Proceed).

What prevents scenarios like this??? I know this scenario may not be technically possible, but I think ye all see my point.......just trying to learn here. [:I]

You state that you have made an extensive study of signals world wide. So, how come you are asking these questions? You should already know the answers.

You just proved the point of my post. A junction is protected by Absolute Signals. As the name implies, its indication are absolute and must have direct dispatcher intervention for the train to do anything other than obey the signal. If you are not qualified for the section of railroad involved, you WILL have a pilot with you who is qualified. Otherwise, you will know the territory and know that when you see only two heads of three lit, you have a problem.

And the rules (FRA Rule, by the by) state that should you come upon a signal that is supposed to be lit and is not lit, you stop. Right now. No questions asked. If you have an Absolute Signal involved, then you MUST have the dispatcher involved. If it is an intermediate signal, after stopping and waiting for the perscribed period of time and listening and looking for any other movement and not finding any and after walking your train to inspect if for air line separation, physical separation between cars or for derailed wheels and finding none of these, you may proceed at restricted speed to the next signal.

Lastly, at an interlocking (which a CTC Jct would be), the signals display route and occupancy in preferance to speed instructions. Thus, your three head signal would display, from top to bottom, Main Track indication, 1st diverging track indication, 2nd diverging track indication. If you have been lined for the 2nd diverging route, you will have one of these signal indications --

R-R-R (stop and stay)

R-R-Flashing R (proceed at restricted speed without stopping prepared to take 2nd diverging route)

R-R-Y (proceed at reduced speed (sometimes with an actual max speed mandatory) prepared to take 2nd diverging route and be prepared to stop at the next signal which may be displaying red)

R-R-Flashing Yellow (same as solid "Y" except it would be the second signal, not the next)

R-R-G (proceed prepared to take 2nd diverging route).

If you have encountered an intermediate signal, the indication will provide speed information in preferance to block occupancy information which has the dual function of keeping an actual separation and keeping maximum traffic fluidity.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CrazyDiamond

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

.......Now, if we were to use your system and one of those lights were burnt out, the crew would never know it unless the signal was "dark" (no light of any color). Bazoooooom, there goes your train right by the signal and into an accident.........

I've got myself thinking again. First the scenario:

We got a crew running a train down some very 'foreign' track....they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. They've 'downloaded' the books, schedules, tables, etc, and for the most part things make sense, but once in a while they get kinda confused.

Anyway they are approaching a junction which has a three signal heads. However the top head is burnt out, so instead of seeing three heads, they see two. This junction has not background lighting, the area is fairly wooded with trees and bursh, and maybe in terms of documentation it is also simplied. Another train is approaching the junction, or perhaps has just left and stopped. The first train, will be using the same 'exit' route as the 2nd. Would the crew not seeing two lit heads instead of the three give them incorrect information.....and thus lead them into disaster? Instead of seeing R/G/G (Rule 418 - Proceed, medium speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at medium speed) they instead see G/G (Rule 405 - Proceed).

What prevents scenarios like this??? I know this scenario may not be technically possible, but I think ye all see my point.......just trying to learn here. [:I]

You call for a pilot in the first place, and don't end up getting into that situation.

[CrazyDiamond]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

.......Now, if we were to use your system and one of those lights were burnt out, the crew would never know it unless the signal was "dark" (no light of any color). Bazoooooom, there goes your train right by the signal and into an accident.........

I've got myself thinking again. First the scenario:

We got a crew running a train down some very 'foreign' track....they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. They've 'downloaded' the books, schedules, tables, etc, and for the most part things make sense, but once in a while they get kinda confused.

Anyway they are approaching a junction which has a three signal heads. However the top head is burnt out, so instead of seeing three heads, they see two. This junction has not background lighting, the area is fairly wooded with trees and bursh, and maybe in terms of documentation it is also simplied. Another train is approaching the junction, or perhaps has just left and stopped. The first train, will be using the same 'exit' route as the 2nd. Would the crew not seeing two lit heads instead of the three give them incorrect information.....and thus lead them into disaster? Instead of seeing R/G/G (Rule 418 - Proceed, medium speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at medium speed) they instead see G/G (Rule 405 - Proceed).

What prevents scenarios like this??? I know this scenario may not be technically possible, but I think ye all see my point.......just trying to learn here. [:I]

[CrazyDiamond]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

CrazyDiamond --- your idea is a good one but has a really serious drawback. And were it not for this drawback, I think a system similar to yours would be in operation now because of the cost of multiple signal heads.

That drawback is -- (Rule) if a signal is dark (no lit) it must be considered as the most restricting indication that this signal could display. In other words, stop right now, flag the train and call the dispatcher for instructions.

Now, if we were to use your system and one of those lights were burnt out, the crew would never know it unless the signal was "dark" (no light of any color). Bazoooooom, there goes your train right by the signal and into an accident.

So, for safety, only one color can be displayed for each head at any one time. That way, if you have a burned out bulb, you will know it and not go zinging right on by.

This doesn't seem to be an issue over in the UK:
http://www.railway-technical.com/sig-uktypes.html#4-Aspect-Operating

[Anonymous]

who's intruding?

[CrazyDiamond]

You're right ironken, it is up to all of ye to read and apply. Anyway, I am gonna stand back and 'observe'....I may have intruded to much in this important discussion already.

Best wishes everyone!

C.D.

[CrazyDiamond]

I will say this too.....I believe having one universal (North America wide) signal system, that communicates great amounts of information to the engineers should be, in my mind (with zero expereince in the real rail world) much better then a simple signal system that depends on engineers knowing their track. Besides look at it from a career perspective.....if you know you can leave your job in the Southern US (for example) and take up that job that you always wanted in the Northern US, or up here in Canada, and can immediatly be a vauled employeed because you do not need to relearn the signals, I would think that be a good thing. Does a solid robust signal system not bring better and consistent information to the engineer behind the snowed up window?

It like me deciding to drive to the USA and visit all that your great country has to offer.....but....what if your traffic lights were differents, and your signage were different. I'd be in a crash no time at all.

Remember, K.P. started this thread by presenting us with a scenario of signals displaying something he feels would cause confusion, at the risk of leading to a dangerous situation. One of the key fuctions of signals are to help prevent a dangerous situation. The fact that there is confusion, and the numerous opinions in this thread prove it, leads me to think improvements can be made.

[Anonymous]

Diamond, its really not that bad. As Chief stated, it gets a little hairy where mergers meet. I can't say for sure how other lines work, but, on our RR as I said, the signals are defined in writing and made readily available. Also as Chief said, it is up to the crews to keep themselves safe. The info is there, we just have to apply it. By no means am I pro company. I just believe that we have to take responsibility to interpret these things. If these issues didn't exist, there would be no need for a 2 man crew or even a 1 man crew. Job insurance!

[CrazyDiamond]

Hi ironken,

No I am not 'a rail'. I am simply an observer who has done lots of reading about signaling all over the world. I posted an 'idea' in the previous page, and I'm sure this idea has been previously considered and defeated for various reasons. Other than that my comments on this site will really be limited simply because I don't know enough to comment. I do find the various signaling systems interesting and the "yea and nea" debates are also great to read. Someday when I build a model railroad, I hope to incorporate a lot of what ye tell me in here.

[Anonymous]

The current signaling system IS simple....when you run on different RRs trackage is when it gets a little confusing. That said, all of the signal changes/deviations are well published and made available to us via Div. General order, or the foreign RR's own instructions and timetables are made available to us. If a signal is moved, it is listed on our GTBs as a Form C or a TCM or it is stated in a General Notice or General Order. The information is there. We get paid to stay in the know. Crazydiamond...........are you a rail?

[CrazyDiamond]

Jeff wrote: "The present setup works just fine, thank you."

Gee Jeff I was thinking, it the present setup did work fine this thread (and all the comments about costs, knowing your routes versus, using 'simple' signaling versus complex signaling, etc,) would not exist. :-)

[Anonymous]

i work for 1 railroad with 3 different classes of signals. chessie, seaboard, and now conrail signals. There are places that the signals don't just tell us to go or stop or slow down to cross over they space us out and in some places they are still set up for when there were cross overs back in the wooden wheel days . The "railroad' honestly has no clue what to do about the signal systems because some of them are seriously messed up and it takes a pileup or the fra to catch it. Crews young and old work over the same territory and see the same signals time and time again, untill one day they see a different signal that they don't understand since they have never passed before. Is it because they are tired or stupid or is it because its on a small piece of railroad that is left from 3 mergers and the signals are backwards from all 500-1000 miles of railroad that they are qualified on . Maybe if it was just dark we wouldn't have the troubles but now the fra is really putting the hurt on the dark territory. I know maybe they get a guy like at the airport with the flashlights with the cones directing traffic. Naaa. Almost everywhere on csx has to call signals on the radio, but we don't have to on our local divisions BUT the conductor must keep a log and write them down. some conductors ask for the speed if they don't have a speedometer i like to lie and tell i'm speeding and see if they right it down lol bottom line WE have to care about our safety the railroad doesn't

[Anonymous]

Everybody tries to arbitrarily apply signal aspects and indications from other roads to this situation when they are as useless as trying to fit Ford rods in a GM product. Most of the indications listed here are bogus......slow, med, etc. speed......crap! I have a current UP SSI in front of me. The double yellow's indication states:Proceed prepared to advance on the diverging route at next signal at prescribed speed thru turnout. Name: Approach Diverging. Yellow Green: Proceed. Speed passing next signal must not exceed 50. Name: Approach clear 50. In all of these scenarios posed by the resident non railroaders, nobody differentiates an absolute from intermediate signal (big difference when it is red). The bottom line is KNOW YOUR TERRITORY. As I have said before, Eastern RRs and Western RRs signaling aspects and indications share very little in common. If somebody comes on here asking what a Red/Flashing yellow means on the NS, I wouldn't jump up and say, "oh that means Diverging approach medium," because that is what its name is on my RR. If you are gonna deliver info you should be accurate about it.

[CrazyDiamond]

Don't worry Jeff......North America won't up and change any time soon.

[jeffhergert]

The present setup works just fine, thank you.
Jeff

[CrazyDiamond]

That is easy to overcome. A automatic lamp changer can be used, just like they are now in numerous applications, including signaling, and airport and navigation aids.....and if that were not enough, then a dual lamp module or those new LED lamps (that contain dozens of LEDs) would work.

[kenneo]

CrazyDiamond --- your idea is a good one but has a really serious drawback. And were it not for this drawback, I think a system similar to yours would be in operation now because of the cost of multiple signal heads.

That drawback is -- (Rule) if a signal is dark (no lit) it must be considered as the most restricting indication that this signal could display. In other words, stop right now, flag the train and call the dispatcher for instructions.

Now, if we were to use your system and one of those lights were burnt out, the crew would never know it unless the signal was "dark" (no light of any color). Bazoooooom, there goes your train right by the signal and into an accident.

So, for safety, only one color can be displayed for each head at any one time. That way, if you have a burned out bulb, you will know it and not go zinging right on by.

[CrazyDiamond]

I'm new to railroading, and was never employed in the industry. I am a telecommunications engineer.

However that said, I have done a lot of reading on signaling, and am a signaling fan one could say.

I for one believe in using signaling to control speed versus using it to control only block occupuncy. However I find it very confusing (hard to remember) all thos combinations of red/yellow/red, or red/flashing green/red for example. It appears that this new speed signaling was the result of one thing, a given head can display only one color at a time. I think it would be more easy to remember signaling from a 3-lamp signal head, that can display any combination of red, yellow and green. To me this would help reduce the number of signaling rules for someone to remember.

For exmaple:
Green only = Track speed.
Green & Yellow = 45 MPH
Yellow only = 35 MPH
Yellow & Red = 20 MPH
Red only = Stop

A second head could be used to display information at a track switch.
Green = Main Route
Yellow = Diverging Route
Red = No Route

So a Yellow & Red / Yellow = 20MPH onto the diverging route. Then some short distance afterwards, the next signal could be a single head signal and display the next speed assigment:

Green & Yellow = 45MPH.

A variation of this would not be to assign actually MPH, but to assign % of track speed. So for a given area track speed could be 60MPH, and the signaled percentages would determine actual speed.

Please take this with a grain of salt, because as I said I was never employed in the railroad industry.....just a telecom guy that is becoming a fan of signaling and model railroading.

Ps, the nick name 'signals' that I am a Pink Floyd fan!