Telegraph poles

[REDDYK]

Now, any old railroad photo will show a row of poles with 40+ single wires on glass insulators on crossarms. I always believed them to be telegraph wires. Most of them are gone, but not all. Does anyone use a telegraph today? Or is it possible that the RR uses these remaining wires for lineside signals of some type? I always wonder how CSX Jacksonville can operate a switch in Ohio.

[mudchicken]

Also on there are/ were electric lines, message phones, CTC code lines, western union & other lease lines. There are still message (ds) phones and electric lines in use all over. Pole lines are dinosaurs in this day and age, but if they still work - they are used. Don't assume the line is inert.

Fiber optic cables and microwave systems are in use all over. Railroads have the largest private telecom systems in the country, a fact often forgotten.

[UPTRAIN]

I didn't know that...lol.

[Train Guy 3]

Any railrans here collect glass insulators?

[Anonymous]

Just as a historical footnote to MC's post, the original Sprint LD system was set up by SP to make a little extra money selling excess capacity on their in-house comm/PABX systems. And it was something that was well-run and innovative at the time--one of the first entities to take advantage of the Ma Bell breakup. We bought their servive early on, and for the era it was well-thought out with features that you couldn't get anywhere else, like on-like accounting code insertion per call. The down side was that (originally) you were limited to locations where the SP network/PABX operated, which was the SP service areas plus big cities where they had offices.

[tree68]

Ahhhh - the sound of the wind blowing through the wires....[:D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3

Any railrans here collect glass insulators?

I've got about 30 or so, and many different ones. A couple of rubber ones, some of the threaded wooden pegs, and even half a cross arm. I also have an example with the wire still tied on.

They turn up at garage sales a lot, for a buck or two. Most of mine have come from hikes along the right of way, shortly after the poles came down. You don't find too many good ones if you aren't there pretty fast after they come down. Most are busted.

[Modelcar]

...What am I remembering about these "glass" insulators that they contained some harmful material such as PCB's...or something like that....Any comments...?

[Anonymous]

I have a few old glass insulators that I picked up along the Santa Fe line in Santa Fe Springs California in the late '60s. I have found that inverting them, putting a small brass chain around the wire recess, plus three chains about 2 feet long to hang them from the ceiling. A votive candle fits in nicely for a mood light.

[jchnhtfd]

The glass -- and sometimes ceramic -- insulators are quite harmless; never fear (although some of them do contain lead -- but that isn't going to hurt you unless you insist on eating them... !). PCBs -- which may be harmful -- were found, however, in a wide range of electrical devices, as they are wonderful heat transfer liquids and the don't burn. Transformers, large capacitors, fluorescent lamp ballasts... all kinds of doo-dads. But not insulators.

[jeaton]

Modelcar-

Just don't have them for lunch.

Jay

[Modelcar]

...Hey thanks....I'm a sneakin' eater as it is so probably no danger....

[Ibflattop]

I have a couple of insulators off of the NYC' s Waterlevel route that runs thru Northern Indiana that I got from when my wife and I went for a walk along the ROW.
Kevin

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...What am I remembering about these "glass" insulators that they contained some harmful material such as PCB's...or something like that....Any comments...?

I haven't heard anything like that, and rather doubt that that would be the case. Most of the insulators were made long before PCB's were ever heard of. The glass ones should be just fine, as any trace agents would be trapped. If there were problems, I would be more suspicious of the non glass ones, but as long as you don't lick them, I would think they would be pretty harmless.

[Modelcar]

....I don't have any and don't consume too many of them for lunch or breakfrast but there is something in their history that was brought to light some years ago....I'll have to do a bit of searching and see if I might find what it was all about. Had a utility line that passed by my home years ago with the multiple crossarms and a couple dozen insulators attached {on the threaded wood pegs}, etc....and they were dismantled years ago and at that time there was some info published about them but can't remember enough to be more specific.

[jchnhtfd]

QM -- are you possibly thinking about the creosote which was used to treat the poles and the crossarms? That's not such neat stuff... although nowhere near as bad as it is sometimes made out to be.

[eastside]

QUOTE: Fiber optic cables and microwave systems are in use all over. Railroads have the largest private telecom systems in the country, a fact often forgotten.

The railroads' rights of way for steel track are also ever so conveniently perfect for glass fiber. I don't think they break out income from leasing the ROW but it must be some nice change. We all use the railroads, whether we know it or not, when we use the internet.

See also the thread "Telephone Poles" posted 11 Jun 2004.

[zardoz]

Many moons ago (late 70's or early 80's), a contractor laid fibre-optic cable along the entire Chicago to Milwaukee (and beyond) line of the CNW. They ran the cables about six feet underground along side the right-of-way.

When they were doing some of the digging, I was "lucky" enough to be called for the work train. The contractors had a huge digger arm that extended outward from the special flatcar it was mounted on. The arm had a sort of claw on the end, which was stuck into the ground and then the whole assembly was dragged by the locomotives. As it moved through the ground, it left a six-foot deep and one foot wide trench into which the crews laid the cable. When we got to an undiggable (is that a word? It is now!) location, such as a grade crossing, they had to splice the cable and then dig a horizontal hole from one trench to the other, and then run the cable under the road (or whatever).

The first time I was called for the job, I was assigned one SD40-2. It proved to be insufficient power for continuous use (short-time rating exceeded). The next day we were assigned TWO SD40-2's, which worked quite well. It was quite amazing to see (and operate) two high-horsepower locomotives, each pulling over 1000 amps, moving only a few cars at the blazing speed of about 1mph.

[Modelcar]

Jamie: No, I'm familiar with how and why creosote was{is}, used....

[Modelcar]

....It just may be I'm thinking of the lead used possibly in coloring some of the pieces....The wife just walked in here and I asked her cold, if she remembers the old insulators and something dangerous about them....and right away, she answered "yes", but she didn't know just what it was....Mystery.

[morseman]

If I recall correctly when I worked for CP Telecommns, The wires on the poles were
about twelve inches apart & would handle 15 teletype circuite plus one telephone line
or they would handle the 15 teletype circuite plus radio line (CBC) or they would handle
four telephone lines. Also a morse line would be on each line. This was in the 1950's. Perhaps if there are any railway Testing & Regulating Chiefs or Wire Chiefs
around they can correct me on the above

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Ahhhh - the sound of the wind blowing through the wires....[:D]

Yea, till one is blown over on you...

Railfan1: "Hey, is that a headlight?"
Railfan2: "I belive s..."
*BZZZZZ.. Pop Pop! Buzz, poof*
Railfan2: "where'd ya go?"
Railfan1: "ouch" [xx(][B)]
Railfan2: " Hurtin a bit, eh?[|)]
*railfan3 walks over*
Railfan3: [:0] "What that all aboat, eh?"

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....It just may be I'm thinking of the lead used possibly in coloring some of the pieces....The wife just walked in here and I asked her cold, if she remembers the old insulators and something dangerous about them....and right away, she answered "yes", but she didn't know just what it was....Mystery.

Most of the insulators I've ever seen were either clear glass (usually green, sometimes colorless) or enameled ceramic. Can't see where either would pose a threat to anyone, beyond sharp edges if they're chipped or broken.

May be an early urban legend at work here.

[Rustyrex]

Here's a question I was wondering a few days ago before I saw this thread, did certain railroad have a standard for which their Telegraph poles were designed? For Example, you could almost always tell pre 1980 UP right-of-way by the lineside poles with one short crossarm and one, two or three long ones. They still exist on original UP in areas to this day. I understand that railroads had as many crossarms to facilitate the number of communication wires, quite a few in the cities, but was wondering if there was a reason for certain distinct looking designs?

--Rusty

[Anonymous]

Some of what you're seeing is the result of standards, some is the result of good engineering practice (which everyone shares), and some is simply expediency. Each railroad's signal and communication department had standards. The standards, of course, changed over time, so something built during the period of one standard might be quite different from something built during the period of the next standard. And standards were not necessarily uniform system-wide. Railroads that were amalgams of predecessor companies seldom rushed out to change everything to one standard. Because these items are durable, it's still possible today to see signal and communication standards that on paper became obsolete 80 years ago. And, of course, local conditions can change everything.

The term telegraph lines or telegraph pole becomes obsolete in most cases by the 1920s. Telegraph was supplemented by telephone almost as soon as telephone became available, and in most cases telegraph vanished completely at a later date. The pole lines also carried power and signal lines if signaling was installed. Even the simplest overlap-type ABS signalling systems required two wires so that each signal knew what the signals on either side were doing, plus two more wires for power, unless they were battery operated (primary battery signalling systems were installed into the 1930s in places where commercial power wasn't yet available). You'll sometimes hear the lineside pole line called "code lines," though technically that's only applicable if they carry coded Centralized Traffic Control circuits. The proper term is "signal and communication lines" if they carry both types of circuits, "communication lines" if there are no signal circuits, and "power lines" if all they carry is electrical power. The trend for the last 30 years is to get rid of all of these lines in favor of microwave, radio, or fiber-optic, and instead of signal codes being carried on wires, they're now locally transmitted through the rails or carried on radio beams. Power is the only thing left that still requires wire, and often there's nothing left of the old forest of pole line but a short run of power line stretching from the nearest commercial line to a signal.

OS

[Modelcar]

....Tree: Appreciate your thoughs on what I might be suggesting and thinking but no legend involved here....What is envolved is a memory {something in my lifetime}, that is cloudy in specifics....Whatever this is, is in my lifetime....I'm fully aware of it being suspect since all the knowledge on here is drawing a blank on the subject....It possibly was a regional situation...At this point I can't explain it. I do know when these lines were dismantled the subject was brought to the surface. {Location was western Pennsylvania}.

[Anonymous]

Modelcar, I wonder if you are thinking of of PCB's, a highly toxic (carcinogenic) compound found in the transformers hung on some power lines and, I believe, in some older telephone and telecomunications equipment
It's bad stuff, but sould not contaiminate most glass insulators.

Larry

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....It just may be I'm thinking of the lead used possibly in coloring some of the pieces....The wife just walked in here and I asked her cold, if she remembers the old insulators and something dangerous about them....and right away, she answered "yes", but she didn't know just what it was....Mystery.

Most of the insulators I've ever seen were either clear glass (usually green, sometimes colorless) or enameled ceramic. Can't see where either would pose a threat to anyone, beyond sharp edges if they're chipped or broken.

May be an early urban legend at work here.

I have one that says CPR on the top and is made of marble.

[Modelcar]

Larry: Originally I was thinking that PCB's were involved but now I'm not certain to say yes or no....so can't add anything further.
Kevin: Most in the area that I'm refering to..{western Pennsylvania}, were of the glass type with a blue/green tint to them...but some were of a ceramic type material...If memory serves, possibly brown in color.....and most were of the type that were installed on the cross-arm via a threaded wood peg. And there were lots, and lots of them....[%-)] Guess for now, I'll just say...answer unknown.

[Anonymous]

QM, I have an immense pile of insulators I've picked up in my journeys. I can't help myself -- I really like the way they look, and they remind of all the railroads on which I've worked. I came back from a recent trip with over 50 packed into a suitcase -- only one was broken when I arrived!

Only one of my insulators has cash value, by the way. To be valuable, the number known to be in existence has to be less than about 1,000, and to get into big money, the number in existence has to be in the teens or below. When they're pretty, and in perfect shape, and the number known to exist is maybe three or four, the price soars. Because they're glass, and glass is plastic when its heated, forgeries are very common and very difficult to detect. I have never bought an insulator, and never will -- the fun is in finding them, and in the places I find them.

What I collect are commons. "Real collectors" would regard 99% of my collection as complete junk, total landfill material. Not worth even 25 cents each. But I like them because they ARE commons. Railroads are all about the ordinary and everyday. When I glance up at a row of aqua Hemingray 42s (a type of which railroads must have bought about one billion), I recall being out in West Texas on the T&P on a perfectly still spring day, or in Wyoming with the wind moaning through the lines along the UP main.

The only one I have that's rare is of a type only made between 1870-72. The particular example was used on the UP telegraph line in Wyoming. I spotted it laying on top of the dirt below a fill. Apparently it had been buried in the mud for decades until a wet spring, and a cow kicked it up walking by. It's worth all of $125!

Anyway, I wouldn't worry. Glass and ceramic are biologically inert and inactive, highly resistant to leaching, and in fact, vitrification -- turning something into glass -- is precisely the method used to turn many forms of nuclear waste into a brick that's harmless and safe forever. You could lick one for the rest of your life with perfect safety.

The colors result from slight metallic impurities:
green-aqua = iron
amethyst = manganese
cobalt = blue
copper = dark red
nickel = blue to violet to black
titanium = yellow-brown
silver = orange-red
selenium = clear (it decolorizes by counteracting the influence of iron)

While many of these metals are poisons, the only way you could ingest enough quantity to harm you is to grind a large number of insulators into a powder and eat the powder. I think if you want to eat several hundred powdered insulators, heavy metal poisoning might be the least of your concerns. These metals won't leach out of the glass, even in strong acids or alkali solutions, even with a lot of heat and pressure.

OS

P.S.: this is what a Hemingray 42 looks like:

http://www.insulators.com/general/profiles/154hemi.htm