Telegraph poles

[dldance]

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dd

[Anonymous]

If anybody has any questions about any type of glass insulators, feel free to e-mail me at [e-mail] I have been collecting/researching them for many years now. If by any chance I don't know the answer, I would have no problem finding it.

[Modelcar]

O S: That website on the Hemingray 42 is neat....Clearly, what was the predominate design in the area I discribed in my discussions above....They are a neat looking item....Straight forward in design...for the job. I remember they were a good fit on the threads onto the wooden peg on the crossarm.

[Anonymous]

Nice collection!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Modelcar. After looking at the link OS posted, I went and took a more careful look at what I had. I didn't realize that I had as many different Hemingrays as I do.

In the front row from left to right, they are as follows: 9, 12, 16, 17, 40, 42, 45, and 59. The information in the linked site says that the 40 is the early version of the 42. The 40 was discontinued in 1921. The site made no mention of the 59. I have a bunch of 42's and 45's.

The back row is probably nothing special, but compared to the glass Hemingrays, they seem unusual. The large black one has no markings on it at all, and is made of a hard plastic, and is a close replica of the glass 42. The small one is rubber, and well marked. Made by Continental Rubberworks for Western Union. The next one is made of clear plastic, and is very light. HK Porter Co., Inc 106932. Finally the two ceramics. Neither has any markings. The larger, which is in pretty good condition, seems to be the newer of the two, judging by the condition of the glaze.

Click on the photo to enlarge.

[Modelcar]

....Good display of pcs....and good photo of them B B...and O S, will take a look at your site a bit later must run...Enjoyed all the comments just above....I'm sure it is an interesting collection item. Just talking about them brings back memories in the 40's and even back in the 30's.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rustyrex

Here's a question I was wondering a few days ago before I saw this thread, did certain railroad have a standard for which their Telegraph poles were designed? For Example, you could almost always tell pre 1980 UP right-of-way by the lineside poles with one short crossarm and one, two or three long ones. They still exist on original UP in areas to this day. I understand that railroads had as many crossarms to facilitate the number of communication wires, quite a few in the cities, but was wondering if there was a reason for certain distinct looking designs?

--Rusty

The short crossarm at the top of the UP poles supports the wires for the AC utility power for the lineside equipment. It is high and separated from the other wires because it is a high voltage distribution system. Notice each place the railroad needs power there is a small voltage drop transformer mounted on the pole. This method is used to overcome the unacceptable voltage drop, if using a 120 or 240 volt system, caused by the vast distance to a commercial utility connection.

I have not been to that part of the west in many years. Probably as the commercial utility network expands there will be less use of high voltage distribution by the railroad itself.

[Big_Boy_4005]

All of this talk has prompted me to go and look at my collection more closely. Here is a photo of some of the variety In my collection. I have more commons. There are some interesting shapes here, a few plastics, a couple of hard rubber, and some hardware and pegs.

Any comments about the items in the photo are welcomed. I really don't know a whole lot about these, I just think they are cool.

[Anonymous]

QM, I have an immense pile of insulators I've picked up in my journeys. I can't help myself -- I really like the way they look, and they remind of all the railroads on which I've worked. I came back from a recent trip with over 50 packed into a suitcase -- only one was broken when I arrived!

Only one of my insulators has cash value, by the way. To be valuable, the number known to be in existence has to be less than about 1,000, and to get into big money, the number in existence has to be in the teens or below. When they're pretty, and in perfect shape, and the number known to exist is maybe three or four, the price soars. Because they're glass, and glass is plastic when its heated, forgeries are very common and very difficult to detect. I have never bought an insulator, and never will -- the fun is in finding them, and in the places I find them.

What I collect are commons. "Real collectors" would regard 99% of my collection as complete junk, total landfill material. Not worth even 25 cents each. But I like them because they ARE commons. Railroads are all about the ordinary and everyday. When I glance up at a row of aqua Hemingray 42s (a type of which railroads must have bought about one billion), I recall being out in West Texas on the T&P on a perfectly still spring day, or in Wyoming with the wind moaning through the lines along the UP main.

The only one I have that's rare is of a type only made between 1870-72. The particular example was used on the UP telegraph line in Wyoming. I spotted it laying on top of the dirt below a fill. Apparently it had been buried in the mud for decades until a wet spring, and a cow kicked it up walking by. It's worth all of $125!

Anyway, I wouldn't worry. Glass and ceramic are biologically inert and inactive, highly resistant to leaching, and in fact, vitrification -- turning something into glass -- is precisely the method used to turn many forms of nuclear waste into a brick that's harmless and safe forever. You could lick one for the rest of your life with perfect safety.

The colors result from slight metallic impurities:
green-aqua = iron
amethyst = manganese
cobalt = blue
copper = dark red
nickel = blue to violet to black
titanium = yellow-brown
silver = orange-red
selenium = clear (it decolorizes by counteracting the influence of iron)

While many of these metals are poisons, the only way you could ingest enough quantity to harm you is to grind a large number of insulators into a powder and eat the powder. I think if you want to eat several hundred powdered insulators, heavy metal poisoning might be the least of your concerns. These metals won't leach out of the glass, even in strong acids or alkali solutions, even with a lot of heat and pressure.

OS

P.S.: this is what a Hemingray 42 looks like:

http://www.insulators.com/general/profiles/154hemi.htm

[Modelcar]

Larry: Originally I was thinking that PCB's were involved but now I'm not certain to say yes or no....so can't add anything further.
Kevin: Most in the area that I'm refering to..{western Pennsylvania}, were of the glass type with a blue/green tint to them...but some were of a ceramic type material...If memory serves, possibly brown in color.....and most were of the type that were installed on the cross-arm via a threaded wood peg. And there were lots, and lots of them....[%-)] Guess for now, I'll just say...answer unknown.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....It just may be I'm thinking of the lead used possibly in coloring some of the pieces....The wife just walked in here and I asked her cold, if she remembers the old insulators and something dangerous about them....and right away, she answered "yes", but she didn't know just what it was....Mystery.

Most of the insulators I've ever seen were either clear glass (usually green, sometimes colorless) or enameled ceramic. Can't see where either would pose a threat to anyone, beyond sharp edges if they're chipped or broken.

May be an early urban legend at work here.

I have one that says CPR on the top and is made of marble.

[Anonymous]

Modelcar, I wonder if you are thinking of of PCB's, a highly toxic (carcinogenic) compound found in the transformers hung on some power lines and, I believe, in some older telephone and telecomunications equipment
It's bad stuff, but sould not contaiminate most glass insulators.

Larry

[Modelcar]

....Tree: Appreciate your thoughs on what I might be suggesting and thinking but no legend involved here....What is envolved is a memory {something in my lifetime}, that is cloudy in specifics....Whatever this is, is in my lifetime....I'm fully aware of it being suspect since all the knowledge on here is drawing a blank on the subject....It possibly was a regional situation...At this point I can't explain it. I do know when these lines were dismantled the subject was brought to the surface. {Location was western Pennsylvania}.

[Anonymous]

Some of what you're seeing is the result of standards, some is the result of good engineering practice (which everyone shares), and some is simply expediency. Each railroad's signal and communication department had standards. The standards, of course, changed over time, so something built during the period of one standard might be quite different from something built during the period of the next standard. And standards were not necessarily uniform system-wide. Railroads that were amalgams of predecessor companies seldom rushed out to change everything to one standard. Because these items are durable, it's still possible today to see signal and communication standards that on paper became obsolete 80 years ago. And, of course, local conditions can change everything.

The term telegraph lines or telegraph pole becomes obsolete in most cases by the 1920s. Telegraph was supplemented by telephone almost as soon as telephone became available, and in most cases telegraph vanished completely at a later date. The pole lines also carried power and signal lines if signaling was installed. Even the simplest overlap-type ABS signalling systems required two wires so that each signal knew what the signals on either side were doing, plus two more wires for power, unless they were battery operated (primary battery signalling systems were installed into the 1930s in places where commercial power wasn't yet available). You'll sometimes hear the lineside pole line called "code lines," though technically that's only applicable if they carry coded Centralized Traffic Control circuits. The proper term is "signal and communication lines" if they carry both types of circuits, "communication lines" if there are no signal circuits, and "power lines" if all they carry is electrical power. The trend for the last 30 years is to get rid of all of these lines in favor of microwave, radio, or fiber-optic, and instead of signal codes being carried on wires, they're now locally transmitted through the rails or carried on radio beams. Power is the only thing left that still requires wire, and often there's nothing left of the old forest of pole line but a short run of power line stretching from the nearest commercial line to a signal.

OS

[Rustyrex]

Here's a question I was wondering a few days ago before I saw this thread, did certain railroad have a standard for which their Telegraph poles were designed? For Example, you could almost always tell pre 1980 UP right-of-way by the lineside poles with one short crossarm and one, two or three long ones. They still exist on original UP in areas to this day. I understand that railroads had as many crossarms to facilitate the number of communication wires, quite a few in the cities, but was wondering if there was a reason for certain distinct looking designs?

--Rusty

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....It just may be I'm thinking of the lead used possibly in coloring some of the pieces....The wife just walked in here and I asked her cold, if she remembers the old insulators and something dangerous about them....and right away, she answered "yes", but she didn't know just what it was....Mystery.

Most of the insulators I've ever seen were either clear glass (usually green, sometimes colorless) or enameled ceramic. Can't see where either would pose a threat to anyone, beyond sharp edges if they're chipped or broken.

May be an early urban legend at work here.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Ahhhh - the sound of the wind blowing through the wires....[:D]

Yea, till one is blown over on you...

Railfan1: "Hey, is that a headlight?"
Railfan2: "I belive s..."
*BZZZZZ.. Pop Pop! Buzz, poof*
Railfan2: "where'd ya go?"
Railfan1: "ouch" [xx(][B)]
Railfan2: " Hurtin a bit, eh?[|)]
*railfan3 walks over*
Railfan3: [:0] "What that all aboat, eh?"

[morseman]

If I recall correctly when I worked for CP Telecommns, The wires on the poles were
about twelve inches apart & would handle 15 teletype circuite plus one telephone line
or they would handle the 15 teletype circuite plus radio line (CBC) or they would handle
four telephone lines. Also a morse line would be on each line. This was in the 1950's. Perhaps if there are any railway Testing & Regulating Chiefs or Wire Chiefs
around they can correct me on the above

[Modelcar]

....It just may be I'm thinking of the lead used possibly in coloring some of the pieces....The wife just walked in here and I asked her cold, if she remembers the old insulators and something dangerous about them....and right away, she answered "yes", but she didn't know just what it was....Mystery.

[Modelcar]

Jamie: No, I'm familiar with how and why creosote was{is}, used....

[zardoz]

Many moons ago (late 70's or early 80's), a contractor laid fibre-optic cable along the entire Chicago to Milwaukee (and beyond) line of the CNW. They ran the cables about six feet underground along side the right-of-way.

When they were doing some of the digging, I was "lucky" enough to be called for the work train. The contractors had a huge digger arm that extended outward from the special flatcar it was mounted on. The arm had a sort of claw on the end, which was stuck into the ground and then the whole assembly was dragged by the locomotives. As it moved through the ground, it left a six-foot deep and one foot wide trench into which the crews laid the cable. When we got to an undiggable (is that a word? It is now!) location, such as a grade crossing, they had to splice the cable and then dig a horizontal hole from one trench to the other, and then run the cable under the road (or whatever).

The first time I was called for the job, I was assigned one SD40-2. It proved to be insufficient power for continuous use (short-time rating exceeded). The next day we were assigned TWO SD40-2's, which worked quite well. It was quite amazing to see (and operate) two high-horsepower locomotives, each pulling over 1000 amps, moving only a few cars at the blazing speed of about 1mph.

[eastside]

QUOTE: Fiber optic cables and microwave systems are in use all over. Railroads have the largest private telecom systems in the country, a fact often forgotten.

The railroads' rights of way for steel track are also ever so conveniently perfect for glass fiber. I don't think they break out income from leasing the ROW but it must be some nice change. We all use the railroads, whether we know it or not, when we use the internet.

See also the thread "Telephone Poles" posted 11 Jun 2004.

[jchnhtfd]

QM -- are you possibly thinking about the creosote which was used to treat the poles and the crossarms? That's not such neat stuff... although nowhere near as bad as it is sometimes made out to be.

[Modelcar]

....I don't have any and don't consume too many of them for lunch or breakfrast but there is something in their history that was brought to light some years ago....I'll have to do a bit of searching and see if I might find what it was all about. Had a utility line that passed by my home years ago with the multiple crossarms and a couple dozen insulators attached {on the threaded wood pegs}, etc....and they were dismantled years ago and at that time there was some info published about them but can't remember enough to be more specific.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...What am I remembering about these "glass" insulators that they contained some harmful material such as PCB's...or something like that....Any comments...?

I haven't heard anything like that, and rather doubt that that would be the case. Most of the insulators were made long before PCB's were ever heard of. The glass ones should be just fine, as any trace agents would be trapped. If there were problems, I would be more suspicious of the non glass ones, but as long as you don't lick them, I would think they would be pretty harmless.

[Ibflattop]

I have a couple of insulators off of the NYC' s Waterlevel route that runs thru Northern Indiana that I got from when my wife and I went for a walk along the ROW.
Kevin

[Modelcar]

...Hey thanks....I'm a sneakin' eater as it is so probably no danger....

[jeaton]

Modelcar-

Just don't have them for lunch.

Jay

[jchnhtfd]

The glass -- and sometimes ceramic -- insulators are quite harmless; never fear (although some of them do contain lead -- but that isn't going to hurt you unless you insist on eating them... !). PCBs -- which may be harmful -- were found, however, in a wide range of electrical devices, as they are wonderful heat transfer liquids and the don't burn. Transformers, large capacitors, fluorescent lamp ballasts... all kinds of doo-dads. But not insulators.