A steam comeback?

[Anonymous]

I know this is going to sound crazy and perhaps ruffle some feathers to even suggest this on a railfan forum, but I just had to mention it and here's why. It has come to my attention that a German firm called DLM (damplocomotive und maschienenfabrik) I think that's the correct spelling is manufacturing brand, spanking new steam locomotives! They're being sold to little Swiss cog and rack railways which haul a lot of tourists, but the website www.dlm-ag.ch has some good data comparing the matinence and operating costs of their new or retrofitted steam locomotives to old steam and diesel-electric and "new" steam comes out the cheapest (well according to the company anyways). I suppose if it works for such little operations in Switzerland, then why wouldn't it work for Union Pacific or a real railroad company? They're also making new reciprocating steam marine engines which I thought was kewl, but before anyone tars and feathers me, just check out the website for yourself and then share your thoughts.

[Paul Milenkovic]

I had gotten to that site through the Ultimate Steam Page. I gather they are fueled by "light oil" (i.e. #2 Diesel) rather than the Bunker C of the old oil burners, and the main application is tourist railroads, everything from those cog lines to a revival of the Orient Express. I heard they pay attention to thermal efficiency -- modern exhaust systems, boiler thermal insulation, lagging on the cylinders to keep the steam in them hot, but burning Diesel fuel a proper Diesel is going to come out ahead -- the main reason is the "entertainment value." A wider community than foamer railfans expects steam power on these lines.

I guess there was a time when everything from locomotives to earth-moving equipment was steam powered, and my momma always told me if I didn't clean up my room she would have to take a "steam shovel" to it (when I tell that joke I modernize it and say "front-end loader.")

But when the QE-II gets converted from a steam turbine powerplant to Diesel, I guess it is a distant dream for steam to come to the rails. And you homeowners and people who serve on church councils: would you rather deal with steam/hot water heat or a hot air system?

I still think the biggest drawback to steam is not the thermal efficiency issue but the maintenance -- think boiler maintenance, boiler inspections, rod and running gear maintenance.

[Anonymous]

DLM is not a German but a Swiss firm and the Swiss cog and rack railway with "new" steam locomotives is the famous Brienz-Rothorn-Bahn (http://www.brienz-rothorn-bahn.ch/e.html)!

Greetings from Switzerland!

[Hugh Jampton]

They also do conversion kits for coal fired locos

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Paul Milenkovic is right, the maintenance expense is the killer. For example, French steam locomotives were very efficient in their use of steam but they spent a lot of time in the shop being maintained. When labor is cheap, the expense may be tolerable, but that isn't the case today. Even North American steam, which spent a lot more time on the road creating gross ton-miles, required a lot more in running maintenance than a diesel-electric and few roads streamlined their maintenance operation to the extent of Norfolk & Western in the postwar period.

[eolafan]

Does anybody here recall the ACE3000 experiment in the 1970s?

[FThunder11]

I dont read German too well, so i have no idea what the site is talking about, but i do like the pictures[;)]

[Modelcar]

....Of course the ACE3000 steam experiment...with 614....Go to Google and type in the ID and bring up a great drawing of the talked about "new" steam engine.

[dknelson]

When was the very last full size steam locomotive built in America? I know the N&W built its last 0-8-0 in 1952 or 53, but the two 4-4-0s built for the 1969 golden spike centennial were the last ones I know of. Of course there are large amusement park locomotives that have been built more recently but I am talking full size. Maybe one or another of our own cog railroads?
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Steam never went away, it just got less attention. China, India and several otehr contries still use good old Steam as a motive fleet.

The New and Improved Steam the germans are using allows for one man crews, less maintenence than before and increased operational abilities. In other words, they are almost on par with diesels, in all senses.

Give the germans 10 years and they'll refine it to the point that steam will again outclass diesels.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Steam in India is pretty much gone in general service, diesels and electrics are just about everywhere. There may be some left in odd locations here and there.

Steam in China has for the most part pulled back to Manchuria since that's where the coal mines are and diesels are beginning to make inroads even there.

My 2000 issue of Jane's World Railways shows minimal steam in the rest of the world, not unlike steam in the United States in 1958-1959.

Baldwin completed an order of export steam locomotives for India in 1954. Keep in mind that India's loading gauge is fairly generous.

[espeefoamer]

Forget China,I'm moving to Switzerland[:D]!

[Anonymous]

I suppose that even with better thermal efficiency the matinence on the rods and running gear could be pretty bad. On the other hand I think SteamerFan in right that just given a matter of time steam will be ruling the rails again. Personally I'm a freshman Engineering Technology student and my own intuition tells me that electronics need to be integrated into the system to further boost fuel efficiency to the magic point where the savings on fuel are so great, that matinence costs won't matter because the overall cost compared to diesel will be so low.

[steveblackledge]

how about a brand new 4-6-2 Pacific capable of 100mph, it's a dream thats almost complete here in the UK, just waiting for the boiler to be made by a german firm, Dampflokwerk Meiningen (Steam Locomotive Works Meiningen), a workshop of the Deutsche Bahn.
the loco is an A1 class pacific thats being made from sctatch, every part is brand new so it will be classed as "new rolling stock" so will be free from other preserved loco restrictions such as limiting it to 75mph, the line speed will be the limit, yes yes, for more info and a video of the wheel turning for the first time go to,
http://www.a1steam.com/

[:D]

[daveklepper]

If oil gives out, the coal and nuclear power will be used for electric cars and trains. I don't see steam making a comeback except in specific situations, but then that may be enough to suite steam fans.

[coborn35]

When you think about steaam coming back in America, consider how many [u]diesel locomotives it takes to sufficently power a modern freight train. Also take into consideration how much it would cost to build water towers, coaling towers and also the regular maitnence cost. It would be cool, but not a reality.

[Anonymous]

With diesel fuel climbing to all time highs, it's likely that alternative modes of energy will be looked at and tried out, this is already taking place with the Green Goat hybrid switchers that are running off of batteries that are charged by a small diesel generator.

I was hearing that for the first time ever, diesel is taking the place of labour as the highest coast for railways, so you can bet that railways are going to be looking at alternatives.

Steam I find hard to imagine, however hybrid locomotives seem like a very likely candidate at the moment.

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

Steam never went away, it just got less attention. China, India and several otehr contries still use good old Steam as a motive fleet.

The New and Improved Steam the germans are using allows for one man crews, less maintenence than before and increased operational abilities. In other words, they are almost on par with diesels, in all senses.

Give the germans 10 years and they'll refine it to the point that steam will again outclass diesels.

UT OH WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!! Steam is comming back with an attack!! Hay I wouldn't mind seeing steam come back to into the everyday operations of Class One. Even though I grew up on diesel, love diesel, and am a diesel machinest.. I need to see the Allegheny H8 2-6-6-6 run.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

Steam never went away, it just got less attention. China, India and several otehr contries still use good old Steam as a motive fleet.

The New and Improved Steam the germans are using allows for one man crews, less maintenence than before and increased operational abilities. In other words, they are almost on par with diesels, in all senses.

Give the germans 10 years and they'll refine it to the point that steam will again outclass diesels.

Don't you mean the Swiss.. They get a bit upset about this type of confusion.. Almost as bad as a Canuck being mistaken for a Yank.

[Modelcar]

...If oil does become too expensive or supply becomes limited...I believe it wil not be any form of a steam engine that will be used for a replacement...Electric engines under catenary would be my guess to replace the diesel. Or a process of manufacturing some sort of fuel from coal..{liquid}, would be developed.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

If oil gives out, the coal and nuclear power will be used for electric cars and trains. I don't see steam making a comeback except in specific situations, but then that may be enough to suite steam fans.

No doubt about it, a thinker is in the forum.

[Train Guy 3]

I want to see a comeback in steam excursions but libability insurance is such a backstabber.

[Anonymous]

Just to end this discussion: Although DLM is a Swiss firm they will never ever build a mainline steam engine for comercial service. The Swiss network is electrified by 100 per cent and there is no public accection of any kind of steam or diesel (!) locomotives (remember the Kyoto protocol!).

But DLM has the possibility to build small numbers of modern steam locomotives for special service like museum railways (Brienz-Rothorn-Bahn) or special excursions (locomotive 52 8055). Just this weekend a special excursion with locomotive 52 8055 will take place in Switzerland. But do you really like the design of this modern steam engine? I would prefer the good old historical locomotives which are still in service from time to time (A 3/5, C 5/6). You can't bring back the elegance of this design!

It's really important to keep the few remaining steam engines in a good shape! It's our heritage!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

Steam never went away, it just got less attention. China, India and several otehr contries still use good old Steam as a motive fleet.

The New and Improved Steam the germans are using allows for one man crews, less maintenence than before and increased operational abilities. In other words, they are almost on par with diesels, in all senses.

Give the germans 10 years and they'll refine it to the point that steam will again outclass diesels.

Don't you mean the Swiss.. They get a bit upset about this type of confusion.. Almost as bad as a Canuck being mistaken for a Yank.

Whoops, yes the article was refering to the swiss steam, but the germans are also performing this as well. Seems steam is being thought of as viable in europe, probably due to the high costs of oil there, and the fact that electrification is unfeasible in some areas (notably all the mountains).

I'm sure we will see self contained systems, where expelled steam is not vented but returned to the resevoir, perhaps an electric boiler run by a small fuel cell generator. New high tech metals and polimers mean that steam can be as easy to maintaine as diesels or electrics.You have to remember, Europe is far more into the enviromental movement than the US is.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

Whoops, yes the article was refering to the swiss steam, but the germans are also performing this as well. Seems steam is being thought of as viable in europe, probably due to the high costs of oil there, and the fact that electrification is unfeasible in some areas (notably all the mountains).

I sure don't know where you ever got the idea that electrification is unfeasible in "all the mountains". It sure wasn't from the Swiss, Austrians, Germans, Italians, or French. They all have lots of electrification in the Alps. And that idea sure didn't come from the Milwaukee Road, the Great Northern, the Norfolk and Western, the Virginian, or the Boston and Maine. Their electrifications were in the mountains.

[Anonymous]

Good question, rdg. I was wondering how high-tech metals and polimers (sic) make maintenance as easy as diesel or electric. I was also wondering how expelled steam would be returned to a reservoir after doing useful work. Second law of thermodynamics is voided, perhaps?

OS

[Anonymous]

I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to have a condenser set-up on a steam locomotive and I'm surprised that back in the "good old days" one was never developed since the steam tugs and steam ships have been using condensers to recycle steam for ages now. I suppose in the beginning the Railroads just wanted to save money by not putting condensers on their locomotives and just let the crud build up in the boiler tubes and have it blasted out every now and then. Of course by the time condenser technology got really good, I think it was too late as diesel-electrics were coming on line and despite the high initial cost, were/are cheaper to maintain without all those rods and running gear. I think if there is any future for steam locomotives, it will probably be along the lines of the "green goat" hybrid locomotive using batteries as the primary power source with a small steam power plant generator complete with a condenser. I know that straight electric from overhead wires would be most efficient, but the initial cost and matinence cost of such a system is very high.

[Anonymous]

Assume that several hundred chief mechanical officers in the 1930s were inquisitive and progressive. What were they to use for a heat sink for the condensers they should have applied? What supports the assertion that those CMOs would have provided the same locomotive miles for less money by using condensers than by performing frequent boiler washes?

How could a small steam turbine plant today have less total lifetime cost than any currently marketed locomotive not financially propped up with R&D credits or environmental credits? Exactly what operational role will that locomotive fill?

How is straight electric the most efficient, anyway? I mean, what the hell, if we're going to dismiss initial cost and maintenance cost, we ought to go for broke and dismiss something really annoying, like having to turn a profit.

OS

[arbfbe]

I was pulling throttles back in Alliance, NE when the ACE unit was the rage for fuel conversion during the oil crisis. One night we were sitting around the switch shanty reading the Railfan article and put a pencil to paper. The state of the art steam engine was to be rated the same as an EMD GP40-2. To give the steamer the benefit of the doubt we uped the rating to equal an SD40-2 to match what we were running out of the Powder River Basin. The first thing that reared it's ugly head was the fuel consumption of the steam engine. We were spotting a handful of tank cars loaded with diesel fuel to feed the fleet of SD40-2 and U30C locomotives each day. Seems like a dozen or so loads to spot. The ACE units would require almost 2 full 100 car trains of coal to be spotted daily if they were to replace diesels on a one to one basis. That pretty much showed me the steamer would lose the battle before it was even built for most applications and that would limit it to production levels too low to be price competitive.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, but the thought of spotting two unit trains every day to fuel the fleet at Alliance is pretty darn funny! To say nothing of the pall of smoke over the valley ...

OS