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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 3:44 AM
Again, I think you will find that on a per-passenger or rather per-traveler basis, other forms of intercity transportation are subsaidized as much as Amtrak. Private plains, for one example.
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Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 5:51 AM
Glenn, if you want to work for a passenger rail that is appreciated by the government and people, apply to VIA Rail. Alot of the government takes the VIA to Ottawa for work. Former Transportation Minister David Colinette didn't like anything too much other than the train so he tried to always get on one.

Ridership is increasing and rail service is slowly but surely increasing.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 7:00 AM
Futuremodal...it was a question, not an attack, concerning what was the deficit level when Bush began his 1st term. Everyone will be affected by the current trends of doing away with this, in support of that, etc. For most of the country, maybe the elimination of Amtrak wouldn't make much of a difference. For example, to the northeast corridor, it would make a huge difference. We've lived thru it all before when any U.S. president who was in office proposed cutting Amtrak, and, we've always said before if that's how the gov't. feels, then, go ahead and eliminate us. Lets see what happens then. I do know on the east coast when the airlines are snowed in, their tickets are honored on Amtrak - but, we just don't want to be a "fair weather" service. Most of us here have been with the company for over 20 years on average, and we are sitting now in our 5th year without a labor agreement - no raises. We've seen that before where we sat 4 years without an agreement. But, we've stuck it out always hoping. Cost of living raises - I don't call getting 3¢ an hour, 12¢ an hour (yes, that was 3 cents, and, not 3%) a cost of living raise. But, we wait, we hope. Myself, I think I've seen 5 different presidents at Amtrak. Pres. Gunn is the 1st to say it like it is, fund us properly, or, shut it down. I don't want to lose my job, I have a wife and kids, too. But, President Gunn is correct - it was Congress who had enacted Amtrak after Conrail was formed. Conrail's actual name was Consolidated Rail - a consolidation of all of the bankrupt freight roads on the eastcoast and where-ever else. Conrail said it then, we're not going to provide a passenger service because there's no profit in that. Congress said "oh yes you will". So, Amtrak was formed, a splinter group from Conrail, to provide some kind of passenger service. The Amish depend on the rails for their long distance travel - it's against their religion to fly. Then, there are those who are afraid to board an aircraft. I don't know if that's enough justification to keep all of our Amtrak trains, but, I do know this - once we were very close to striking because of sitting another "x" amount of years without a labor agreement (we don't have contracts that allow us to walk out at mid-night at the expiration date), we were ordered by the U.S. President not to strike because we are - get this - vital to national security. And, this was years before the Sept. 11th attack on New York (I'm thinking around 1985 when this had happened).
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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 7:27 AM
Funny,

It's not always the Republicans. I well remember 1977-78 when I used to hang around Tampa Union Station as a teen. JIMMY CARTER was sounding the death knell for Amtrak. Senator Brock Adams was pushing for a "skeletal system" for Amtrak. We lost a few trains and that was basically it.

The city of Tampa spent $12,000,000 to renovate our historic station. Hope it doesn't go to waste! Well, it's FEB 2005, and once again I saw the Silver Star. Had 10 cars, and SHE WAS FULL!

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Posted by Valleyline on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 9:02 AM
Those who harp about airways subsidies should check out the FAA budget. They will find that the vast majority of FAA funds come from user fees, and not from general tax revenues as does the Amtrak subsidy.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 9:32 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Valleyline

Those who harp about airways subsidies should check out the FAA budget. They will find that the vast majority of FAA funds come from user fees, and not from general tax revenues as does the Amtrak subsidy.


They may say that, but it doesn't mean it's true.
The feds, long before there were any so-called user fees, paid for airport construction.

Indeed, rail passengers, through taxes punitively levied against them, paid for construction of airports. Talk about hyprocrisy!

Airlines don't even pay HALF of FAA cost
Between 1980-1989, total spending by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) was $54.9 billion. Of that amount, less that half, 45.1% came from user charges. The rest, 54.9% came from non-users through the general revenue fund. -Source: Office of Management and Budget

Air passengers did not pay user fees between 1963 and 1971, ironically the year Amtrak began operation. "Airport and airway development costs incurred prior to the assessment of user charges in 1971 have been treated as sunk costs, none of which will have been or will be paid for by air carriers...these sunk costs total $15.8 billion." -Source: Study of Federal Aid to Rail Transportation, USDOT 1977

Airport expansion projects... paid for by the feds with no whining about "subsidies"
$12,000,000,000 Los Angeles Proposed LAX expansion (1/20/01)
$ 5,400,000,000 Atlanta Hartsfield International Airport expansion
$ 3,400,000,000 St. Louis Airport expansion
$ 3,000,000,000 Washington Dulles Airport expansion
$ 521,000,000 U.S. Amtrak yearly funding Serving 530 U.S. cities in 46 of 50 states
$ 112,000,000 Los Angeles LAX aesthetic upgrade

Note how Atlanta's expansion - one airport project - is NINE TIMES Amtrak's normal appropriation.

More research found at...

http://www.trainweb.org/moksrail/advocacy/resources/subsidies/transport.htm
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 9:35 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

I think this time Amtrak is going to lose its transcontintentals and some other long distance lines.... Oh, the NEC will survive, possibly with a cash infusion from the states it serves..... and possibly the Auto Train....

However, I still see no vision from Amtrak about its future.... The future of passenger railroads in America is not the status quo of running out of date equipment on out of date tracks.....

Now is the time to move on HSR, and convince the nation it can afford a up to date HSR system from New York to Chicago, and further south on the eastern seaboard, plus a line from Northern California to Southern California..... All of these HSR lines if properly funded and built could turn a profit....something the airlines are failing to do......


Talk about fantasy!

Who's fault is it that Amtrak runs on "out of date tracks"? Amtrak's?

You so-called railfans going to give Amtrak a black eye for this one as well?

The call for HSR is irrational. Who's gonna foot the bill?

No one wants to pay for current passenger rail service. Why would lawamakers want to fund something many consider pie in the sky?

Amtrak can hardly get scraps now with all the hue and cry from so-called free market types who turn blindly to fed funding of air and highways - the very competitors that take most of freight RR's customers.

Imagine how much whining, moaning and cursing Amtrak would receive if it proposed HSR.

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Posted by conrailman on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 9:55 AM
Amtrak needs 30 Billions Dollars to get the Northeast Corridor into A Shape again, and Amtrak needs alot of New Cars 500 to 900. Amtrak needs 350 New Cars for the Northeast Corridor, New Diners and Dorms for the eastern trains, Coaches for the eastern train, and about 500 New Superliners Cars. Superliners 1 are 26 years old built in 1979, Superliners 2 built in 1995-1996.. Put the 2 on Standby in Chicago, La, Seattle, Oakland, in Case some train are like the Sunset Limited this past Summer 12 to 50 Hours Late. That my Amtrak Plan.[8D][:)]
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Posted by gfjwilmde on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 4:33 PM
I apologize to anyone whom may have taken offense to my comments, but there are some thruths that have to made clear. I don't deny that even during past democratic administrations, that Amtrak had faced many cut backs. Plus, I can agree there has been a history of mismanagment of appropriation given. Yet, I can't help but feeling slighted by the public and our government even after we were the 'ONLY' form of transportation in this country that was even running, hours and days after 9/11!! How can I not feel anger from this betrayal!! Many emergency workers rode for free to DC and New York(I believe we were ordered to) where they were needed, while the intercity buses were sitting idle and every plane was grounded! Also, I'm much older now(42) then I was when I got hired, so starting over at the bottom of another railroads' union senority roster is a real bitter pill to swallow. Bush, Sr. did that to a lot of us soldiers after the first Gulf War, calling it downsizing(that was started during Reagan's administration, check it out for yourselves). He even put a lot of war veterans just coming back from the Gulf out the service, with very little warning. I at least had time to prepare myself, my ex and my children for what was to come. I sent my resume to every railroad in the country, and in four months(By God's Blessings) Amtrak gave me an interview and I started that very day! That was twelve years ago(this coming February), so you see why it will be hard to start over like this. My one hope is that Long Island RR, Metro North RR or New York City is in a hiring blitz(they pay way better than any railroad out there, plus better benefit package), since I'm an ex New Yorker(Brooklynite) and know my way around the area much better than where I'm currently residing. I just think, Amtrak gets unreasonable scrutiny from the people holding the purse strings, while the government wastes our money in Iraq on their infastructure, that's constantly being blown up on a daily basis! DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE IN THIS FORUM!! W A K E U P A M E R I C A . . . .while we still have our civil liberties!



GLENN
A R E A L RAILROADER . . . . A NOT SO PROUD AMERICAN!!!!
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Posted by garr on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 4:33 PM
amtrak-tom,

Amtrak was started in 1971. Conrail was started in 1976. If I remember correctly, Conrail did have some commuter operations that were passed to some state or local passenger authorities a year or so after 1976. But true intercity passenger service was long gone from the NE railroads by 1976.

Jay
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 5:20 PM
glenn for the most part we agree with you, I was just saying that it isn't all republicans that are against Amtrak. John Kerry isn't a big fan of it either, and he might have done the same thing in elimanating it. I plan on being in Government some day in the future, and I will be a big supporter of Amtrak and commuter rail, and I am a Republican. I just hope that this what a shot across the bow to make sure that Gunn is doing everything he can to save money and make Amtrak a great company. Gunn seems like a smart man, so I think that you and Tom will be in good shape.
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Posted by garr on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 5:22 PM
GLENN,

Civil liberties can be taken away in a number of ways. The obvious is legislation. The less obvious is high taxes. Each additional $ of taxes one has to pay is a $ that the taxpayer loses freedom over. As the government keeps adding programs and/or funding ones that may not be needed, the tax burden or deficit goes up. Whether it is this year, next year, or the next decade, the bill has to be paid.

I'm also 42. I am not entirely against Amtrak, but, I am for reduced federal government spending. I have two children below the age of ten. I believe it is unwise and selfish of our and older generations to keep "forcing" the federal gov't to spend at deficit levels.

When my children are 42, long after the photos of today's Amtrak trains have faded, they will be paying for "our" deficit spending. At much higher tax rates than we pay today. Where are their "civil liberities"?

Jay








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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 6:00 PM
I don't see why the existing Amtrak car fleet can't last 100 years. They just need to be rebuilt periodically. They are all stanless steel construction and have no fatigue issues that can't be dealt with. There is no new technology that makes them obsolete.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 6:18 PM
I seem to recall an article in Trains a few months back (sometime last year) that spoke to exactly what Don is asking about in regards to their fleet.

On a different note: After returning from a recent trip to England and Scotland I was so disappointed at what pass. rail travel is offered in the U.S. Now, I understand the very good arguments on size of the US vs England and infastructure currently in place. But still, it was so wonderful to be able to travel all of England and Scotland just with my backpack and shoes, no car needed!

To me it seems to be a real shame to have our country going backwards in my mind toward pass. rail travel. If anything it needs to expand, and I also understand the arguments toward what gets the funding first, but still in principle we need more rail pass. rail networks with more destinations that will appeal to all of us gas hogs.

I tried to counter all the arguments I would receive first, and mainly state my opinion on principle.
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Posted by conrailman on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 7:23 PM
Today News Bush is giving another 950 Million to Asia and 150 to 200 Million to Poland, All this aid to other Country, plus the 280 Billions for the War. Spend all this money at home not over Seas? Bush gives 80 to 100 in aid to Different Country every year. [V][:(!]
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Posted by DaveBr on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 7:48 PM
Gentlemen; Would you think the Presidant would add a little more funds to Amtrak if
all the people would get together and start to boycott Texas and everything Texas controls?I see all these numbers on here,someone must have a number or come up with numbers if Texas were boycotted?Didn't the boycott against France hurt them a little or lot?Just a thought.....DaveBr.
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Posted by UPTRAIN on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 8:41 PM
CONSERVATIVE HERE: I don't think Bush understands the importance of Amtrak to some people's everyday life. Maybe he and Gunn should ride cross country and let Gunn point out the problems that they are having. And if your gonna boycot Texas and everything Texas controls...DON'T RAILFAN BNSF. You remember they're headquarters are in FORT WORTH. I don't recken' yall thought of that...I better get my hind end outta here before I get pissed off...

Pump

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Posted by UPTRAIN on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 8:43 PM
Just to let ya know...If I hated Amtrak...why would I go over once a month and see it at 1 and 3 in the morning just to PHOTOGRAPH IT?!?!?!? Look at my site for the pix! [;)]

Pump

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Posted by klahm on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 10:50 PM
A few thoughts:

I ride Amtrak often for biz trips in the NE corridor, it being so much more efficient and productive than flying or (shudder) driving. But these are 60-to-200 minute ventures. It would be just as useful elsewhere if (a) the time frame were the same and (b) it were readily possible to reach my street destination from the station, either by rental car or public transport.

I used European railways similarly when on biz there during the '90s.

I doubt that I'm alone at this. Rail makes a lot of sense when the density of major metro areas is high and the connecting infrastructure extensive. Otherwise, it's not very practical (even in Europe, with the possible exception of TGV). The "car culture" has ensured this.

During the great blackout in '03, I rode Amtrak CHI-ALB, revisiting the stations on the Water Level Route that I passed on the Empire State Express during my youth. Seeing the weed-overrun and dilapidated was a real eye-opener. Though the Empire Corridor seemingly has the metro density, it appears to lack the connective infrastructure that it had in the days of the Great Steel Fleet. Hence, JetBlue thrives.

I frequently commute to downtown Chicago on Metrarail, passing Amtrak's service facilities. Most of that rolling stock goes to smaller, faraway places that I would never travel to by rail. Places I need to go, e.g., Cleveland, it doesn't, at least not at any biz-friendly hour, nor at any useful speed.

The political necessity of serving "everywhere" collides with the economic reality of limited demand for long-distance services through comparatively lightly-populated regions. Congress has denied this paradox for 34 years. That's why Amtrak is in its current state. If the Shrub's budget proposal can get Congress to think "outside the box" (doubtful), perhaps some good will come of it.

Many consider it heresy (especially politically so), but careful devolution of Amtrak from federal control to consortiums of states, with transitional block-grant funding, might well create a larger variety of useful short-haul routes that would provide better service at lower cost. California and Washington/Oregon have shown potential within an adaptation of the current Amtrak structure.

Perhaps such changes won't save much money. But I would wager that the money spent would move more people.
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Posted by DSchmitt on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 11:22 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by klahm

A few thoughts:

I ride Amtrak often for biz trips in the NE corridor, it being so much more efficient and productive than flying or (shudder) driving. But these are 60-to-200 minute ventures. It would be just as useful elsewhere if (a) the time frame were the same and (b) it were readily possible to reach my street destination from the station, either by rental car or public transport.

I used European railways similarly when on biz there during the '90s.

I doubt that I'm alone at this. Rail makes a lot of sense when the density of major metro areas is high and the connecting infrastructure extensive. Otherwise, it's not very practical (even in Europe, with the possible exception of TGV). The "car culture" has ensured this.

During the great blackout in '03, I rode Amtrak CHI-ALB, revisiting the stations on the Water Level Route that I passed on the Empire State Express during my youth. Seeing the weed-overrun and dilapidated was a real eye-opener. Though the Empire Corridor seemingly has the metro density, it appears to lack the connective infrastructure that it had in the days of the Great Steel Fleet. Hence, JetBlue thrives.

I frequently commute to downtown Chicago on Metrarail, passing Amtrak's service facilities. Most of that rolling stock goes to smaller, faraway places that I would never travel to by rail. Places I need to go, e.g., Cleveland, it doesn't, at least not at any biz-friendly hour, nor at any useful speed.

The political necessity of serving "everywhere" collides with the economic reality of limited demand for long-distance services through comparatively lightly-populated regions. Congress has denied this paradox for 34 years. That's why Amtrak is in its current state. If the Shrub's budget proposal can get Congress to think "outside the box" (doubtful), perhaps some good will come of it.

Many consider it heresy (especially politically so), but careful devolution of Amtrak from federal control to consortiums of states, with transitional block-grant funding, might well create a larger variety of useful short-haul routes that would provide better service at lower cost. California and Washington/Oregon have shown potential within an adaptation of the current Amtrak structure.

Perhaps such changes won't save much money. But I would wager that the money spent would move more people.


[#ditto]Sounds good to me.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:27 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by vandenbm

I seem to recall an article in Trains a few months back (sometime last year) that spoke to exactly what Don is asking about in regards to their fleet.

On a different note: After returning from a recent trip to England and Scotland I was so disappointed at what pass. rail travel is offered in the U.S. Now, I understand the very good arguments on size of the US vs England and infastructure currently in place. But still, it was so wonderful to be able to travel all of England and Scotland just with my backpack and shoes, no car needed!

To me it seems to be a real shame to have our country going backwards in my mind toward pass. rail travel. If anything it needs to expand, and I also understand the arguments toward what gets the funding first, but still in principle we need more rail pass. rail networks with more destinations that will appeal to all of us gas hogs.

I tried to counter all the arguments I would receive first, and mainly state my opinion on principle.


When comparing US vs the world in the field of passenger rail services, you must remember that all those overseas rail lines are either owned by the government or are private open access lines. We don't have that here. We are stuck with a privately held owner-operator oligarchy here. If we are backwards to any degree, it is in this.
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:53 AM
Sure the "vast" majority of FAA funding is from user fees. But their spending so outstrips the subsidy for Amtrak that it STILL means the air passenger is subsidized at least as much as the Amtrak passenger. As as for private plane owners, they are even more subsidized. To shut down Amtrak is move exactly in the opposite direction from movement to energy independence for the USA and if Bush sticks to his plan he proves to me that the effort in Iraq was primarily to benefit oil companies and the Saudis and NOT to preserve Democracy. I had thought differently. But this, coupled with the fuel cell Hydrigen nonsense (again, it takes a lot more energy, electrical, to make Hydrogen, than you get out if) proves the point. Especially with the long delay of USA automakers introducing hybrids.

Whether or not Amtrak on a per passenger basis is more fuel efficient that all other forms of ground transportation is not the point. Although it is pretty efficient. What is important is its standby value in case fuel imports are cut for any reason whatsoever.

My own impression is that closing down a national railroad system, without a viable replacement that is truly national, would be more harm to USA security than all the communists in the USA ever did during the cold war or earlier.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:17 AM
Garr - ummmm, not sure about the Amtrak/Conrail birth dates, I was just going on what was told to me by the employees I worked under when I was hired in 1979 with Amtrak. These guys were the former PRR, Penn Central, then Amtrak employees, and, about how they were then approached to join Amtrak or remain Conrail because Congress then still wanted a passenger service. One history note, when Eastern airlines was still around, they were the #1 carrier of passengers from Wash. DC to New York. Amtrak took that #1 spot away from the airline and this was before Eastern had ended its operations.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 10, 2005 8:31 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by amtrak-tom

Garr - ummmm, not sure about the Amtrak/Conrail birth dates, I was just going on what was told to me by the employees I worked under when I was hired in 1979 with Amtrak. These guys were the former PRR, Penn Central, then Amtrak employees, and, about how they were then approached to join Amtrak or remain Conrail because Congress then still wanted a passenger service. One history note, when Eastern airlines was still around, they were the #1 carrier of passengers from Wash. DC to New York. Amtrak took that #1 spot away from the airline and this was before Eastern had ended its operations.


Tom,
As railroaders do from time to time they may have gotten their facts or carriers mixed up. They may have meant Penn Central, whose bankruptcy drove home the issue of needing Amtrak, or there may have been a further labor agreement at the time of Conrail's formation that may have lead to the question of Amtrak or Conrail for further employment.

On the question of funding...I would say that if Amtrak gets cut there should be a full disclosure on Federal funding that is provided to the air and highway industry for comparison. That way we can compare the apples to apples. Fossil fuels won't last forever. Just do a Google on Hubbert's Peak and see what's being said about what maybe the very last drops of oil. The wide open spaces out west won't stay that way forever either with the development of our civilization.

Mitch
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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:13 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by klahm

A few thoughts:

I ride Amtrak often for biz trips in the NE corridor, it being so much more efficient and productive than flying or (shudder) driving. But these are 60-to-200 minute ventures. It would be just as useful elsewhere if (a) the time frame were the same and (b) it were readily possible to reach my street destination from the station, either by rental car or public transport.

I used European railways similarly when on biz there during the '90s.

I doubt that I'm alone at this. Rail makes a lot of sense when the density of major metro areas is high and the connecting infrastructure extensive. Otherwise, it's not very practical (even in Europe, with the possible exception of TGV). The "car culture" has ensured this.

During the great blackout in '03, I rode Amtrak CHI-ALB, revisiting the stations on the Water Level Route that I passed on the Empire State Express during my youth. Seeing the weed-overrun and dilapidated was a real eye-opener. Though the Empire Corridor seemingly has the metro density, it appears to lack the connective infrastructure that it had in the days of the Great Steel Fleet. Hence, JetBlue thrives.

I frequently commute to downtown Chicago on Metrarail, passing Amtrak's service facilities. Most of that rolling stock goes to smaller, faraway places that I would never travel to by rail. Places I need to go, e.g., Cleveland, it doesn't, at least not at any biz-friendly hour, nor at any useful speed.

The political necessity of serving "everywhere" collides with the economic reality of limited demand for long-distance services through comparatively lightly-populated regions. Congress has denied this paradox for 34 years. That's why Amtrak is in its current state. If the Shrub's budget proposal can get Congress to think "outside the box" (doubtful), perhaps some good will come of it.

Many consider it heresy (especially politically so), but careful devolution of Amtrak from federal control to consortiums of states, with transitional block-grant funding, might well create a larger variety of useful short-haul routes that would provide better service at lower cost. California and Washington/Oregon have shown potential within an adaptation of the current Amtrak structure.

Perhaps such changes won't save much money. But I would wager that the money spent would move more people.


Interesting thoughts!

Something, anything, different at this point couldn't hurt, could it?

I think part of the problem with Amtrak is that's trying to be several different thing at the same time with little regard to how efficient it is at doing any of them.

Until you can distill exactly what Amtrak's mission(s) are, you never can get your hands around the problem.

The NEC is certainly a useful mover of people and competes for riders who have the option to drive or fly. You might define this "corridor Amtrak" mission to be:

-provide capacity in a congested markets
-aid in improving air quality in EPA non-attainment zones
-improve mobility
-cover short term variable costs

Hardly anybody argues the usefulness of the NEC (even McCain).

The long distance trains are another story. They currently do several things among them:

1-provide indirect subsidy to some parts of rural America
2-provide vacation opportunities for middle class america
3-provide basic intercity transportation
4-provide subsidized transportation for those who can't/won't go any other way.

At some point, each of these points has been used to argue against Amtrak, usually without any regard to the other points. But, the basic problem is that nobody has ever really defined what the purpose(s) of the LD trains is(are).

If it was decided that the mission of the LD trains was primarily #3, then you could restructure to accomodate.

Here's a strawman:

Have Amtrak operate a network of trains where they provide basic, no frills, coach service.

Have any town along the route that wants service own and operate the station (per stds. maintained by Amtrak)

Have sleeper/diner/food service be operated on a concession basis where consessionaire is responsible for service and equipment.

Investigate 3rd party ownership and/or maintenance of equipment.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:34 AM
Don, that's more clarity than I've seen in many years. Your suggestions are congruent with the goals you set out.

Some minor observations:

1. Your rationale #1 is what is keeping Amtrak l-d service afloat. Political bacon for largely rural states, who figure that dropping Amtrak will be a substantial net negative, because the tax money it would save (if any!) wouldn't be enough to buy anything of equal value.
2. Your rationale #2 is basically the same as the National Parks argument. It resonates well with the suburban middle-class, and Amtrak marketing goes directly to this rationale.
3. The most difficult part of getting muncipalities to pay for the station will be in large cities, not small.
4. How would you propose getting around the losses on food and sleeper service? I don't think the concessionare can make money on it, even if the equipment was furnished and maintained without charge. How would you propose to enforce service levels? Concessionaires in places like airports, national parks, toll-road islands often have an enormous price-value spread and once in, seem to be cemented in place.
5. What about pension obligations? Could those that exist be severed into a separate funding mechanism?

OS
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:27 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by klahm

A few thoughts:

I ride Amtrak often for biz trips in the NE corridor, it being so much more efficient and productive than flying or (shudder) driving. But these are 60-to-200 minute ventures. It would be just as useful elsewhere if (a) the time frame were the same and (b) it were readily possible to reach my street destination from the station, either by rental car or public transport.

I used European railways similarly when on biz there during the '90s.

I doubt that I'm alone at this. Rail makes a lot of sense when the density of major metro areas is high and the connecting infrastructure extensive. Otherwise, it's not very practical (even in Europe, with the possible exception of TGV). The "car culture" has ensured this.

During the great blackout in '03, I rode Amtrak CHI-ALB, revisiting the stations on the Water Level Route that I passed on the Empire State Express during my youth. Seeing the weed-overrun and dilapidated was a real eye-opener. Though the Empire Corridor seemingly has the metro density, it appears to lack the connective infrastructure that it had in the days of the Great Steel Fleet. Hence, JetBlue thrives.

I frequently commute to downtown Chicago on Metrarail, passing Amtrak's service facilities. Most of that rolling stock goes to smaller, faraway places that I would never travel to by rail. Places I need to go, e.g., Cleveland, it doesn't, at least not at any biz-friendly hour, nor at any useful speed.

The political necessity of serving "everywhere" collides with the economic reality of limited demand for long-distance services through comparatively lightly-populated regions. Congress has denied this paradox for 34 years. That's why Amtrak is in its current state. If the Shrub's budget proposal can get Congress to think "outside the box" (doubtful), perhaps some good will come of it.

Many consider it heresy (especially politically so), but careful devolution of Amtrak from federal control to consortiums of states, with transitional block-grant funding, might well create a larger variety of useful short-haul routes that would provide better service at lower cost. California and Washington/Oregon have shown potential within an adaptation of the current Amtrak structure.

Perhaps such changes won't save much money. But I would wager that the money spent would move more people.


While these are some good thoughts, such plans would have to way way long term, since most states don't have any extra money to provide additional train service.

Like Oregon, Missouri and other states, they're having a hard time funding what little rail service they already have.

Even if they wanted to expand service outside of Amtrak, the fed's won't cooperate. They feds provide 80-20 matching on road and aviation projects, but become skinflits when it comes to rail. That's why there aren't as many thriviing corridors that we should have.

This group, the Midwest High-Speed Rail, which wants to modernize short-distance trains throughout ILL, WI, MO, MINN, IND, etc., says the Bush plan of killing Amtrak is shortsighted and will only hurt not help corridor development.

http://www.midwesthsr.org/promote_National.htm

They argue for an interconnected sytsem, which makes more sense than Bush's all-or-nothing "plan."

To get to the point the writer proposes, the feds should significantly increase its investment in short-distance and LD trains. The short-distance ones are the trains requiring the biggest subsidies, in the billions, for infrastructure, equipment, etc.

THe problem with the BUsh plan is it goes after the least-expensive part of Amtrak - its national trains. Bush's people blame those trains for all the problems when clearly the majority of subsidy goest to the corridors.

The LD trains are comparatively cheap - only requiring $70-$300 million to run the nation's 18 LD trains.

Like the highway system, a good and strong passenger rail system would consist of shorter runs, longer runs and higher speed runs. LD trains have a future in this as well as most of them have seen increases in patronage.

  • Member since
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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:50 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by O.S.

Don, that's more clarity than I've seen in many years. Your suggestions are congruent with the goals you set out.

Some minor observations:

1. Your rationale #1 is what is keeping Amtrak l-d service afloat. Political bacon for largely rural states, who figure that dropping Amtrak will be a substantial net negative, because the tax money it would save (if any!) wouldn't be enough to buy anything of equal value.
2. Your rationale #2 is basically the same as the National Parks argument. It resonates well with the suburban middle-class, and Amtrak marketing goes directly to this rationale.
3. The most difficult part of getting muncipalities to pay for the station will be in large cities, not small.
4. How would you propose getting around the losses on food and sleeper service? I don't think the concessionare can make money on it, even if the equipment was furnished and maintained without charge. How would you propose to enforce service levels? Concessionaires in places like airports, national parks, toll-road islands often have an enormous price-value spread and once in, seem to be cemented in place.
5. What about pension obligations? Could those that exist be severed into a separate funding mechanism?

OS


Not claiming any "bullet proof" ideas, but here are a few:

1. Maybe it should be OK to call it what it is, then!

2. Good point. When middle class America says they want continued Amtrak funding (as polls have shown several times) I wonder exactly which Amtrak they're thinking of?

3. I think maybe you can give the big cities and end points a free ride. The economy of scale probably makes them pretty effient as is. It's the lower volume places where you could get good bang for the buck. Also, you could set the stds. higher than current levels so overall svc is better and cost to Amtrak goes down.

4. You could do this two ways. One would be to charge sleeper operators a flat fee per car based on incremental cost to haul plus. This wouldn't likely attract an operator on many routes, but might on some. Operator might be able to balance summer traffic in the west with winter traffic to FL. The other would be to bid out the operations so Amtrak would be seller of service, but consessionair would be the supplier.

5. The pension obligations and Amtrak's "poison pill" labor contracts would only have to be dealt with once. Might be worth the short term pain.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:03 PM
Again I stress the point that in a national emergency like what happened on 9 Nov '01, Amtrrak was proved to be essential.
  • Member since
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  • 587 posts
Posted by garr on Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:21 PM

Amtrak was essential to a finite point on/after 9/11/01. But it is limited by its max capacity. Even if Amtrak could have/afford reserve equipment for such emergencies, it would still be limited by # of employees and track capacity. Not to mention the cost.

Jay

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