NS Crew Fired After Graniteville Crash

[Anonymous]

heavyd: There is such a thing as a trailing switch, or a trailing move through a switch, but one train following another is simply "following." That's all. Trailing is not a term I've ever heard or used, but we do use "following movement" about ten thousand times every day.

Usually there is NOT communication between two trains following each other. There doesn't need to be any. The dispatcher assigns authority for movement to each train, and while they might be aware of the other by overhearing that radio communication, or by observing how the signals fall, or because they looked at a crew lineup before they left their initial terminal, or engage in chit-chat, there's no reason they'd have to know about each other or talk to each other in the general case (there are always exceptions, of course).

In the case at hand, one train was tied-up on an industrial track. The crew was off-duty and gone. The other train arrived some time later, entered the track at speed, and collided with the parked train. They happened to hit engine-to-engine, but that means nothing, as the train in the industrial track was a non-directional movement the moment it entered it. Apparently the switch leading to the industrial track was "reversed," or "open," that is, lined for that track instead of for the main track. Reason why is not yet released. The line is not signaled and is operated under a type of verbal movement authority.

There's little else to know, or worth knowing, or that can be said, at this point.

Brad: FRA has proposed that (mandated that?) already. Whether it has any actual value is debatable. I think that it will be a net negative -- the time and effort spent complying with it will detract from attention to other safety measures of equal or greater risk, plus it will require a lot of walking back and forth -- and that right there is a hazard. Railroads are full of trip-and-fall hazards, and every trip on foot is a new opportunity to find one.

OS

[Anonymous]

OS, thanks for the reply, I have a question, aren't the brakeman suppose to go back and check the switch when they are not going back out on the main anyways? I would think that would be a prudent thing to do, unless they would have to go more than a quarter mile. I just think that there has to be a solution to fix this. It is a very dangerous problem that should be fixed somehow.
Brad

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by goduckies

that may be the goal of the union, but it is not the case a lot of the time, there are a lot of instances I know where someone should ber fired, but because of the unions, they are not.
Brad

Truly spoken like someone who has never worked in the rail industry. Rules exist for all parties in the industry. While the companies 'prosecute' employees for operating and other rules violations....there are rules that the companies must comply with. The presence of Union Representation within the disciplinary process ensures that the companies comply with the rules. Without the Unions the companies would make the rules up as the go along, even with the rules, they try to make rules up on the fly.

With 40 years in the industry, 20 on each side of the Union Line I know what each are capable of.

[edblysard]

Brad,
Your list is not a failsafe device...no more safe than a track warrant copied wrong by a fatigued conductor is safe..

What if the guy really, really thinks he lined that switch, and checked it off the list?

I line, at a minimun, 100 switches a day...and I line the lead switch for my switching lead at least that many times...
And I screw it up, at least once a day...most of the time, just before I kick a car, I look at my switch...and catch the goof, but not allways...

So, I am negilent?
After all, I just let a 170,000. lb rail car roll free down the wrong track!
In fact, I did so today, two of them at once.

But, I was prepared for that...short version is the tracks all have cars in them already, with hand brakes, so no real harm done...

But, I forgot to line a switch...so, shouldn't my carrier fire me?

Its the exact same thing you want this crew to be fired for...a switch not lined correctly and cars passed over it, going to the wrong place!

As horrible as it sound, OS gave you part of the reason there is no failsafe switch...and even those controled by a dispatcher can fail to work...and yes, there is a rule about that also

Its the economics of railroading.

Heres the bad part about our jobs...

It is less expensive to pay out the settlements from lawsuits than it would ever be to create and install a failsafe switchs, or a radio than never fails, or a invent and install road crossing devices that work 100% of the time and can not be defeted by the morons who drive around them and in front of trains.

Its cheaper to pay the survivor of the engineer or conductor, than it is to make railroading 100% safe.

Is this right?
Depends on weather your the survivor...but it is an accepted part of railroading...

Any business, construction worker, pilot, firefighter, police officer, loan officer, railroading...heck, even ditch digging has risk...

You willing to fire these guy for one assumed mistake,,,

So, what are you going to give them for the thousands of times they did it right?

And before you jump in and say, "but thats part of their job" you right, it is, and so is handling tank cars full of chlorine, which we do, by the thousands.
And, we do it right, most of the time, day after day.

Your a loan officer...
So, what if you goof, and dont do the math right, or you miss that one document that the guy asking for the loan just has to have...and because of your mistake, you end up having to deny the guy a loan.

He gets depressed, goes home, and blows his brains out...
Now, you screwed up, so his wife can sue you for being negilent...right.?

After all, your negilengence was the direct cause of this guys death...

I think what I am trying to get across to you is this...stuff happens...
No matter how careful we are, no matter how many checklist we have, no matter how many times I have to repeat things back to my engineer or a dispatcher, no matter what, somewhere along the line, I am going to make a mistake, fail to line a switch correctly, see a green when it is really red(yes, that happens too) or just flat copy and read back my track my warrant wrong, and the dispatcher fails to catch the goof either...

We have rules that back up other rules, that cover even more rules...so it takes a chain of events, several seemingly seperate mistakes, to end up with something like what happened here...

So, before you fire these guys, and pile all the blame in one place and on one crew, why dont you wait, and see what else contributed to this?

You just might be surprised at what all it takes to cause a train wreck.

You cant failsafe it...but you can count on this..if these guys did leave that switch lined wrong, I can promise you that they will never do so again...not because they never get to railroad again, but because this accident is burned into their brains...they will check, double check, and then check again just to be sure.

Ed

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by goduckies

I am sorry that I was so harsh on the Unions, I just find it hard to belive that they would stick up for a crew if they found out that those guys forgot to change the switch. It bugs me that we have this we must protect the worker at all costs menatlity. If a guy screws up like that, he should be fired with no chance for a reinstatement. There are too many lives at risk for any railroad company to allow a worker to get away with that. Now if those guys didn't do it, then I take it back, But right now, there is now way that they should let the guys back on the job.
Brad

I guess you are also against the Legal system in the US where one is Presumed Innocent until Proven Guilt.

If someone, in your world, gets arrested for a violation, they must be guilty so we don't need no stinkin' trail.

Also in your world, after the arrest and defacto judgement of guilt then they get locked up and never let out....every transgression is a life sentance.

That is not the US Legal System, nor is it the Disciplinary system that is in effect on the railroads. Think of the Unions in the railroad Disciplinary system as being the Defense Attornies.

[UPTRAIN]

Sad thing, the whole incident!

[wabash1]

everyone here is so far off base on this except for ed. There are others here that know things but wont say because of law suits and thier jobs. this brad is way off and you should do more listening instead of accusing and i do mean listen.

[Anonymous]

What has bothered me about some of the above posts on this tpoic is the bashing of our unions. Most likely this is coming from the anti labor, pro Bush supporters. I have been a UTU member for six yrs. Is my union perfect? No. Does my union always makes decisions I like and agree with? No. Do I complain & gripe about the union? of course. Would I want my union to go away? No. God forbid if the class 1's ever become non union. I have a good paying job with good benefits and representation if I ever need it. The wages, claim payments for performing work not assigned to my train, holidays, health care were all part of collective bargining. It was simply not handed our to us by the carriers. If it wasn't for the unions, we already would have single person crews, no job titles, a very much different pay scale and the rr could basically do whatever they want w/their work force. The issue of the NS crew will be known after all facts are presented. If the cause of the derailment was indeed directly related to the crew failing to line back the mainline switch when instructed to do so, then these men's rr days will most likely be done for good. Lets just wait until the facts are known, quit jumping to pre judgements and stop the union bashing.

[CSXrules4eva]

It seems as if there is a lot of debate in this thread about weather or not the train crew deservied to be fired/.. Interesting. . .. . . since I don't know the details I can't determine wather or not they should be fired. It seems to me it's SOP for a railroad to fire a train crew in which their train derailed and killed people, injured people, leaked harmfull contaminates, destroyed millions of dollars in railroad and customer property.

However, If I were handeling the situation I would look at all the details as to why the accident occured, and what factors were involved. This way I could be fair and just in rueling my decision weather to fire them or not. Because, to me fireing someone is puts a hugh upseat in someone's career in which they can't find another job since they got fired from another. Espually, in the rail industry.

Also what strikes me as weird is that each member of the train crew had 25yrs experience to my understanding, why would they mismanage their train ?????// With all that experienc it seems weird that they would do that. hummmmmmmm. . . .. . . interesting.

[Anonymous]

ed, I guess I don't know enough about your profession then, I will just have to do what the rest of us not in the industry have to do, (LIVE WITH IT) thanks for the info though. And I hope that this doesn't happen again in the future.
Brad

[Anonymous]

balt, I was just talking about if they were guilty of it, I don't know, just saying if that is what happened that is what I would do.
Brad

[Anonymous]

As to unions, I guess that I just don't like them that much, I see things like in SF where they are stiking over not enough benifits, but if they didn't have the union, they wouldn't even have half of the salary let alone the benifits that they do have. Plus I always look when I hear a company is moving overseas, and more often than not it is a union job. I am in a job right now that is not union, and I am sure that I have better benifits than most of the union jobs out there, domestic partner, 401k, company match, awesome insurance, as well as a whole bunch of other benifits. My salary is pretty comparable to market wages, and I don't have to pay to unions, so I don't see the benifit to unions. I think that they were a good thing back 40 years ago and before, but for the most part now they have out used their usefullness. Just firgured I would reply why I don't like unions, since you had asked.
Brad

[BigJim]

Mr. goduckies,
How many years did it take for you to develope that steel trap mind of yours? I certainly hope that when your butt gets fired again that you don't have to go crawling on your belly to someone exactly like you asking for a second chance.

Do you know the story about the fire chief that showed up then drove off leaving the engineer lying on the ground? How are you going to judge him? May God have mercy on your soul

[Anonymous]

goduckies, no insult intended by my questions. I'm very curious to see where you obtained your belief system.

1. Did you ever take any classes in basic economics -- supply/demand, etc.?
2. Specifically, on what date exactly were you harmed by a union or union member?
3. If someone asked you to define "democracy" in one sentence, what would you say?

OS

[edblysard]

Your right, Brad..
You dont know enough about the inside of my industry to fairly judge us...but then, I dont know diddly squat about giving loans out, so we are even...

Now, that said...I am not defending these guys just because they are railroaders...nor am I a big union fan, I am UTU, but, like most members, am rather POed at our last president...guy is criminal, and got off pretty easy, as far as I am concerned...

I am defending the way disclipine is handled...until they are found guility by the NTSB....they should be held from service, allowed to collect their job insurance..and then once the NTSB ruling is made public, and it states they didnt line back, then, and only then do you have the right to gripe about what they did, or didnt do.

Your are judging them without all the facts...did you know they had hit the hours of service, meaning they had been on duty 12 hours...the newspapers had it wrong, they had not been on duty 13 hours...the last hour, hour 13, they had to sit on the locomotive, waiting for the cab to come pick them up.

Its rare for any newspaper to get the facts about railroads correct, most of the reporters dont have a clue about railroads or how they work...we cant work over 12 hours...Federal law forbids it, which is why the train was parked in the siding in the first place.

Now, myself, and just about every other railroader, has a pretty good idea what happened, and why.
If we were they guys passing out the disipline, and if they are found guility of failing to line the switch, then we would fire them for 180 days, maybe a year...but they would get their job back, because each and evrey one of us has goofed up on the same thing...we all have forgotten the line a switch.

Each and every time we do that simple task, there is a chance things can go wrong...its part of the job.
The wheels can pick the switch, or we can really do something stupid, like lining the switch under a moving car...but the point is that almost every time, we catch the mistake, and correct it...or the next crew by is paying attention and playing by the rules, which are designed to allow them to find and fix the the mistake.

What you are looking at here is a series of events, each one, by themselves, wouldnt pose a problem, but add them all together and you get this...

This is part of the business...it happens.
Not often, but it does, and it will again.
But, per mile travled, and per ton moved over that mile, railroads are the safest way to move this stuff.

I understand that from your point of view, this appears to be a great tragedy, and it is...but from our point of view, it is just an acceptable risk, versus the thousands of time we dont screw it up.

Look at it like this...do I sould or seem to be a stupid person, or someone who takes un-necessary risk for thrills?

But yesterday, I was riding on the end of a tank car full of Hydrocaynatic acid...liquid cyanide.
Yup, that stuff, you know, gas chamber fuel...it has a industrial application in the recovery of certain precious metals...but point is, if I did not trust myself, or my helper and my engineer to do it right, I wouldnt be anywhere near that thing.

The public, and the carrier., need someone to blame for this...even though there are a lot of other contributing factors that led to the number of deaths...failed comunications, cowardly people, and one really brave nurse who saved at least one life...lots of things went wrong....some went right, but in the end, all the blame will be heaped on the crew, because its easier to put the blame for all of it in one place..

There is a forum member who knows exactlly how this crew feels, he was involved in a industry changing accident...and the public and the carrier did the exact same thing, dumped all the blame on him, because it was easy...he may, or may not jump in on this to explain, but in the end, it wasnt just his action, but several factors, including the culture that exsisted then, that led to that incident.

But I would suggest you wait till all the facts, not newspaper reports, are made public, before you demand anyones head...you might be suprised how many other things had to go wrong before this could happen...

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

everyone here is so far off base on this except for ed. There are others here that know things but wont say because of law suits and thier jobs. this brad is way off and you should do more listening instead of accusing and i do mean listen.

Everyone? That's a bit of a generalization, isn't it? I do not feel my comments (top of page 2) were off base. Please clarify.

[Rick Gates]

I am going to jump in here briefly because I believe I may be the forum member Ed refered to (possibly wrong and egocentric of me) and; I far and wide respect every post I have seen him weigh in on. This thread has been very civil and stimulating, so I usually don't get involved as my very mention seems to stir strong passionate feelings in others. Mr. Brad, I was invloved in an accident that caused 16 deaths and 178 injuries on Amtrak in 1987. I accept full responsibility for my actions. I cannot however take responsibility for the reactions and actions on anyone else. I do believe I know a little of how this NS crew feels whether they are culpable or not. We take our jobs and all that goes with it very seriously. The NS has probably held a "Kangaroo Court" trial for these gentleman and dismissed them to faciltate their insurance and legal agenda in reaction to the accident. The NTSB report will be the final word on the accident and, will not only access blame but will list every contributing factor leading to the accident and the possible failures after. These 3 crew members have alot of time and training involved in their occupations and it is a shame if they are not given the opportunity to learn and teach them on the job. Someone will fall but; it should be done justly and not a "knee jerk " reaction. I may also like to point out, that in your non-union job, your rate and benefits are a result of the unions setting the market. Conditions when unions began were atrocious and hard fought. Safety and better working conditions are always the union main mission. They have helped to pass laws, and fair practices that you benefit from. If there were no longer any unions, the need would once again increase. Industry is motivated by the bottom line and your salary, benefits and safety would begin to disenigrate rather quickly. You may not even be aware that you are not entitled (in most states) to a lunch break as long as you are paid to work. We do take things for granted and cannot always see the big picture. These gentlemen that were dismissed by NS are likely feeling very bad about the victims of the accident above any of thier misgivings for the job. They are our fellow human beings and our brothers. They may now bring more to the job and not less. The expression "Railroaded," has it's roots in this industry and applies now in most others too. Unions are us banding together to provide for the greater good and stop these unfair practices that still and always will continue. Don't buy the company line. Think with compassion. It is not the company that will keep putting food on your table when the going gets rough. It's your brothers and sisters that have compassion for your plight.[2c]

[gabe]

Sorry to weigh in without reading all of the posts--I have been very busy as of late.

I don't know how I feel about this. Part of me really sympathizes with the train crew. We all make mistakes. But, in the same breath, unless we are a CEO (oops, sorry for the tangent) we all are usually held accountable for our mistakes. If NS doesn't fire the crew, and one the crewmembers makes another mistake that costs someone their life--well it wouldn't play well in front of a jury.

I wish I could weigh in with something more concrete, I just see sympathy on both sides.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Thank your for your honesty. I guess what drives me nuts, and this really isn't your industry, (I really respect what you guys do), and what really colors me wrong about unions would be the teachers union, so maybe I should just realize that all unions are not like them. Also, I would support a federal law that makes it that if you work a 12, you should be required to get 12 off before you come to work again. I would push it through legislation rather than unions, but that is just me.
Brad

[BaltACD]

This is not to make light of the situation, but there is a saying that floats around the railroad industry to the effect, "Your not a real NS employee until you have been fired once."

The rail disciplinary system is not much removed from the US legal system as it is an adversary system, the difference is that the 'Judge' is much more closely associated with the Prosecution in the railroads. In each system the various parites have their own adjendas that may or may not be inclined to determine the truth and reality of the situation that is under investigation.

Those of us that have never participated in either system can only wonder what the adjendas are.

[dekemd]

goduckies,

Some have mentioned that you are a loan officer. If that is true then I can see why you see no need for unions. You probably spend most of your workday in the office. Not that there is anything wrong with that, especially when it's 10 degrees outside. However, that type of job is vastly different from railroading, police work, and other dangerous professions. How often does your workgroup have safety meetings? Safety meetings are pretty common in the more dangerous professions. The problem comes in when some managers get hung up on liability and try to blame every little incident on the worker. Blame the worker=trying to shift blame off the company. A friend of mine works for one of the big telecommunitcation companies. He was in his work van sitting at a stop light in the left turn lane. A woman turning off the side street cut the turn too sharp and hit the front of his van. The company blamed my friend (their employee), and sent him home for a week without pay. They said that if he had driven slower, he wouldn't have been sitting at the red light, therefore the accident would not have happened. [:0] Do you think this is fair? The union didn't. They appealed the company's decision and won. If the union wasn't there, then this guy would have been out a weeks pay, because he was sitting at a stop light. Large corporations like the phone companies, railroads, etc., get really stupid with some of the decisions and policies. After my friend's accident, the phone company came out with a policy that said left turn's were dangerous and should not be made by company employees. They were supposed to down an extra block and make three right turns instead of making a left turn. It might sound good if you were in a city with blocks, but what do you do when you're in the middle of nowhere and the only turn you can make is left? The union help shoot down this policy too. I admit that union's do have their downside, but they are necessary in some instances.

Derrick

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

everyone here is so far off base on this except for ed. There are others here that know things but wont say because of law suits and thier jobs. this brad is way off and you should do more listening instead of accusing and i do mean listen.

Everyone? That's a bit of a generalization, isn't it? I do not feel my comments (top of page 2) were off base. Please clarify.

yep you are right there is at least 1 other i forgot to mention or overlooked ( i was in a hurry and did not take the time to do it right) and i will give myself 15 days on paper if i do it again i will take all 30 days. As a NS employee i have been fired 2 times so far. ) I wont even get into the union side of this I know somewhat more as a insider and other ns employees should know also. that whole mess pissed many people off. I can not talk about some issue of this . some thing are not what they seem to be. all i can say for sure is the real hero has not even stepped forward and taken HER bow... god bless HER..

[edblysard]

How true!

And, like most of those angels..she most likely will not say a thing..

Ed

[ValleyX]

Well, I don't claim to know any inside stories about the unfortunate wreck at Graniteville and I have refrained from chiming in because I am also an NS employee and have been since the company came into existence, and the N&W before that. I've never been fired and most of my co-workers have never been fired, either. I've heard that saying many times said about all railroaders, not just NS rails. And, I daresay (although I'm guessing) that Wabash 1 is talking about serving actual suspended time rather than being fired, something I know is part of the holdover Southern lingo. But I could be wrong.

As for Graniteville, that's a terribly unfortunate thing and I know that crew must be in complete doldrums, day in and day out. That punishment would be terrible and getting fired would only be a small portion of the pain that they must be feeling. I can't express it any more strongly than that.

It would be fun to follow Brad around all day and see what rules he violates, wouldn't it?

[wabash1]

valley x

Yes you are right time served (suspension) as most would call it. the old southern guys called it fired as we was not working. this timed served was due to rule violations(who me... imagine that) and totaling 19 days . it seems the only way to get a day off is to break a rule . and get caught.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

valley x

Yes you are right time served (suspension) as most would call it. the old southern guys called it fired as we was not working. this timed served was due to rule violations(who me... imagine that) and totaling 19 days . it seems the only way to get a day off is to break a rule . and get caught.

The paradox is there are some commodites that railroads handle, such a chlorine, LPG, anhydrous ammonia, etc., that must move with zero failures but the system can only apporach zero failures while not getting too zero failures. That is when tragic thins happen to everyone involved.

[edblysard]

True, Bob, very true.

Zero failures is the goal...not the reality.

But, what is almost always left out of the equation?

The fact that almost all of the railroad track is outside of any populated area...the amount of track that runs through any town or city is very small.

The majority of it is out in the boonies...and that is where the majority of derailments that rupture cars happens, because out there, they are running at speed, inside city limits, they are going a lot slower, hence less damage.

Tank cars are tough, very tough.

What you see on the outside is nothing more than sheathing over insulation, the real tank inside that is very thick steel.

It takes a heck of a impact to rupture one.

They have fallen off of bridges, been broadsided by 18 wheelers, other trains, and still hold up.

You know why you read about the accidents that happen in town?

Because the "news people", and I use that term loosely, never report on the ones that happen in the middle of the Texas desert, because no one cares if it falls over out there, except,of course, the railroad.

But inside town, let a tank car full of corn sweatener derail in town, and the local TV news will have it's SkyEye in full swing, with a terrified sounding reporter telling all the listeners that "A tank car has derailed, we dont know the contents of this car, but authorities are on the way to the scene, Blah, blah bla.." as if somehow this is as dangerous as a nuclear bomb, even when it says Cargil Corn Sweatener in six foot high letters on the side of the car..

Ed

[Anonymous]

I understand that mistakes have happened, hell I have done them my self in my line of work. I guess I just thought that it would be simple to make sure that the switch was lined correctly when I was one with it. With something so deadly, you would think that they would do whatever it takes to make sure that it was safe.
Brad

[espeefoamer]

I feel sorry for the entire crew,but I feel sorriest for the engineer,as he was not involved in the rules infraction.The time served "on the ground"should depend on how each crewman was involved.I dont think any of them should be fired permanently,as no one is 100% perfect 100% of the time.We have all made mistakes on the job,and I'm sure that more than one of us(me included) has been fired.Unfortunately for the crew,this happened on NS,which is notoriously heavy handed with dicipline.
As for unions,They were definately useful at one time.Many work rules, and safety appliances on the railroad,and in other industries,are there because of unions.Today, while still needed, I think in some cases, the unions have too much power.This is part of the reason much of our industry has gone overseas.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I feel sorry for the entire crew,but I feel sorriest for the engineer,as he was not involved in the rules infraction.The time served "on the ground"should depend on how each crewman was involved.I dont think any of them should be fired permanently,as no one is 100% perfect 100% of the time.We have all made mistakes on the job,and I'm sure that more than one of us(me included) has been fired.Unfortunately for the crew,this happened on NS,which is notoriously heavy handed with dicipline.
As for unions,They were definately useful at one time.Many work rules, and safety appliances on the railroad,and in other industries,are there because of unions.Today, while still needed, I think in some cases, the unions have too much power.This is part of the reason much of our industry has gone overseas.

We are not going to know much about this untill the NTSB report comes out. Does anyone have an estimate when we should see the report? In the meantime everyone has a life full of lawyers which has little to do with anything called justice.