Gulfport Bananas!

[SD60MAC9500]

MP173

The same attitude as what Mark Cane expressed in "Against All Odds".  The railroads in the mid to late 70s seemed to run trains.  It later evolved, perhaps not enough, to providing transportation service.  There is a big difference.

BTW, I am currently reading "The Box"  subtitled "How the Shipping Container Macde the World Smaller and the World Economy Bigger."  The book (I am early...right now Malcom McLean - Sea Land and Matson Lines are starting container service).  Pretty good book.  

Lets hope CN can make good progress with that service.  

Ed

 

Post Staggers was hard to cope with.. The top dogs couldn't figure out how to run an enterpirse, besides treating it like a lifesize model railroad..

Port of Gulfports Conterm, ODR (On Dock Rail) is good for 10K' long stack trains. So there's that to help the terminal grow going forward.

[kgbw49]

That is very cool!

[greyhounds]

kgbw49

Greyhounds, just a quick question on your avatar: Is that an IC 1100-class Pacific?

No.  That is a C&IM 4-4-0 making the last passenger stop ever in my hometown, Manito, IL.  It was 1953 and I was two years old.  My mother used to say I would pull myself up in my crib to watch trains go by.  I've been fascinated by railroads ever since.

Realizing my interest, my parents arranged for me to ride that last passenger train from that station stop.   It's obviously not my photo.

Mom took me on the train to Havana, IL. My father worked in Havana and he picked us up at the station and drove us all home.

So, I had my first train ride behind a coal fired 4-4-0 American Type in scheduled revenue service.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kgbw49]

Interesting article on the Chicago Produce Terminal where a lot of bananas from Gulf ports ended up.

Photo of IC 4-8-2 2603 hustling a long string of reefers north.

http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2015/08/chicago-produce-terminal.html?m=1

[kgbw49]

Greyhounds, just a quick question on your avatar:

Is that an IC 1100-class Pacific?

Fine-looking machines, those.

And perhaps the Panama Limited?

[MP173]

I have always appreciated both Greyhound and Don's discussions here.  They lived the industry.  I just smell the diesel exhaust if i am trackside.  Big difference.

 

Ed

[charlie hebdo]

Both (Ken) Greyhounds and Don Oltmann have  similar POVs concerning railroad management resistance to change and innovation, though coming from experience in different departments and railroads. Such a congruence tend to increase the validity of the observations. Additionally, Greyhounds gives detailed, vivid descriptions of interchanges in which he was a participant, which is more valuable than second hand generalities. Thanks!

[Euclid]

Backshop

The difference is that biographers and historians have names and can be challenged. Who is "greyhounds"?  Just an anonymouse poster.

 

You seem to be challenging him quite effectively without knowing his actual name.  Who is Backshop?  It appears to me that it is actually Greyhounds' ideas and criticism of the railroad industry that is bugging you. 

[Backshop]

The difference is that biographers and historians have names and can be challenged. Who is "greyhounds"?  Just an anonymouse poster.

[kgbw49]

BaltACD

 

 

timz

 

Backshop

Bad form mentioning people's names who can't do a rebuttal. 

Because the namee is dead, you mean? So no one is allowed to say Civil War general so-and-so made a mistake in such-and-such battle?

 

 

Deeds of the dead survive their demise.  Thus the dead can always be challenged.

 

Balt, that is an eloquent turn of phrase that  one would find in an Edgar Allen Poe novel or a Philip Marlowe movie.

Well played, good sir! Well played indeed!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A few things need to be kept in mind about railroad regulation prior to Staggers.  Regulation did not occur in a vacuum, there was a strong public push for it over the years that led to railroads being regulated quite tightly like a public utility. Such regulation discouraged and inhibited regulation, see my prior post.  Note that TOFC was first developed on an interurban, which was outside the jurisdiction of the ICC.

[Gramp]

Hear, hear!

[Euclid]

I welcome greyhound’s posts on the quest for new business and how the company culture shoots down the proposals.  I think he is accurately describing a natural tendency of corporate bureaucracies to reject new ideas.  I think that tendency is strongest in the railroad industry. 

 

The question of whether such criticism is bad form is in the mind of the beholder, just like the personal choice of being offended.  I also believe it is bad form to personally insult a participant of a thoughtful discussion in order to gain traction in a point of disagreement. 

 

Not only does greyhounds have the experience, knowledge, and insight to post about how management thwarts positive change, but he also does a good job of explaining the details.   

[BaltACD]

timz

 

Backshop

Bad form mentioning people's names who can't do a rebuttal. 

Because the namee is dead, you mean? So no one is allowed to say Civil War general so-and-so made a mistake in such-and-such battle?

Deeds of the dead survive their demise.  Thus the dead can always be challenged.

[timz]

Backshop

Bad form mentioning people's names who can't do a rebuttal.

Because the namee is dead, you mean? So no one is allowed to say Civil War general so-and-so made a mistake in such-and-such battle?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

BaltACD

One thing to remember - Staggers wasn't enacted until 1980.  Railroad managements in the pre-Staggers era under the ICC regulations were routinely brow beaten for any inovative ideas that were brought into the game and heaven forbid that efforts be made to be truck competitive in any product lines.

Pre-Staggers railroad management only knew how to operate railroads, they did not know how to run a transportation business, since the ICC virtually eliminated business from its opressive oversight of the industry.

The situation that proves this is the Big John rate case.  It took Southern several years and multiple trips to Federal court to be allowed to charge lower rates which were geared to reduced costs.

[samfp1943]

Backshop

 greyhounds

Backshop

Bad form mentioning people's names who can't do a rebuttal. There are two sides to every story.

 Once again I have upset Backshop.  I wrote things as they happened.  If Backshop doesn't like that I don't care.

Actually, I still come here for your entertainment value.  You always have something to say that's unintentionally funny. You're a genius in your own mind.  Too bad that no one you worked with thought the same.

          History, is a very personal topic....Some people write books about events, mundane and historical.      The relation of 'history'  when written by an actual observer, or of events witnessed on the perifiery is, to many of us, real,and facinating.

Greyhounds, relation to the stories, he has related here, is certainly, opinion, and a personal observational assessment of those related events, and individuals.  It gives the observer a window into those times and behaviors behind the events.events.

During my high school years, via the ppersonal relationship of a former rr management type, who had just (SL_SF) retired from 30+ years with a reilroad. And also, with employees of another line there; I was able to meet, and personally observe, on rr properties, employee and personal behaviors (thoughtS/&ideas(?) .

      They seem to validate the personality tyoes, mentioned by greyhounds, of course on a differen kevel, but nevertheless, similar personality thoughit processes.   

  We are fortunate, around here, to have individuals, who have experienced the good, the bad, and the ugly sides, of not only railroading; but other businesse experiences, as well.

[Backshop]

greyhounds

 

 

Backshop

Bad form mentioning people's names who can't do a rebuttal. There are two sides to every story.

 

 

Once again I have upset Backshop.  I wrote things as they happened.  If Backshop doesn't like that I don't care.

 

Actually, I still come here for your entertainment value.  You always have something to say that's unintentionally funny. You're a genius in your own mind.  Too bad that no one you worked with thought the same.

[BaltACD]

MP173

The same attitude as what Mark Cane expressed in "Against All Odds".  The railroads in the mid to late 70s seemed to run trains.  It later evolved, perhaps not enough, to providing transportation service.  There is a big difference.

BTW, I am currently reading "The Box"  subtitled "How the Shipping Container Macde the World Smaller and the World Economy Bigger."  The book (I am early...right now Malcom McLean - Sea Land and Matson Lines are starting container service).  Pretty good book.  

Lets hope CN can make good progress with that service.  

Ed

One thing to remember - Staggers wasn't enacted until 1980.  Railroad managements in the pre-Staggers era under the ICC regulations were routinely brow beaten for any inovative ideas that were brought into the game and heaven forbid that efforts be made to be truck competitive in any product lines.

Pre-Staggers railroad management only knew how to operate railroads, they did not know how to run a transportation business, since the ICC virtually eliminated business from its opressive oversight of the industry.

After Staggers it took some time for Managements to feel out the limits of the new deregulated business enviornment.

[tree68]

Backshop

Bad form mentioning people's names who can't do a rebuttal. There are two sides to every story.

There goes every biography ever written after the subject's death...

[MP173]

The same attitude as what Mark Cane expressed in "Against All Odds".  The railroads in the mid to late 70s seemed to run trains.  It later evolved, perhaps not enough, to providing transportation service.  There is a big difference.

BTW, I am currently reading "The Box"  subtitled "How the Shipping Container Macde the World Smaller and the World Economy Bigger."  The book (I am early...right now Malcom McLean - Sea Land and Matson Lines are starting container service).  Pretty good book.  

Lets hope CN can make good progress with that service.  

Ed

[greyhounds]

Backshop

Bad form mentioning people's names who can't do a rebuttal. There are two sides to every story.

Once again I have upset Backshop.  I wrote things as they happened.  If Backshop doesn't like that I don't care.

[Backshop]

Bad form mentioning people's names who can't do a rebuttal. There are two sides to every story.

[Gramp]

Sad. Unless the top brass exhibits true buy in for a plan, it goes down in flames. 

[greyhounds]

timz

Why did they resist?

 

 

Determining people’s motives has always been difficult, at least for me. I know what they’re doing, but trying to determine why they’re doing it is to investigate their mind. A power that still eludes me.

 

I’ll take some guesses.

 

First, it was a change and people in bureaucracies tend to resist change. They’re comfortable in what they’re doing and the way they’re doing it. Learning something new just rocks their boat. They see no advantage in it for themselves and often feel threatened. They may fail to master the change and suffer for their failure. So, they resist the thought of new ways of doing new things.

 

Our freight loss and damage claims people were a major problem and roadblock. I didn’t want any L&D disputes (a major source of customer dissatisfaction) endangering the business development, so I set up a meeting with the L&D folks.  I wanted to establish, in the contract with Chiquita, clear and precise responsibilities that could be easily followed. I was wasting my time.

 

When I told them why I was there the department head, Mel Hathaway, said: “We’ll handle it according to ICC rules.”  I pointed out that intermodal had been deregulated. Hathaway replied: “Not this part of it, they didn’t.”  Eventually I got a company lawyer to tell Hathaway that the deregulation included L&D claims on intermodal shipments. Hathaway muttered something negative about “This new way of doing things.” 

 

Another member of the L&D claims group, Jim Vinson, once angrily shook a stack of papers at me and loudly said: “In 1977 the ICC told us how to handle freight claims.”  When he did that, I realized that I was threatening these people. Their base of knowledge and action was gone.  They didn’t like that one bit. They were being required to think instead of just following government rules. So, they resisted and wouldn’t cooperate.

 

I could go on about the freight claims people, but that’s enough about them.

 

Our operating department liked to run the railroad in an ad hoc manner, they didn’t have the culture to adapt to customer needs.  So, operating to a schedule went against their grain. 

 

After some successful shipments Chiquita came to us with a proposal to give us two shots of 40 containers each per week from Gulfport to Chicago. That’s 80 loads/week, or 4,000/year. Moved the entire length of the railroad and using somebody else’s containers on TTX flatcars, and mostly using existing train miles. I’ll estimate the potential added annual revenue as $3.5 million pre inflation dollars. That’s good money with low expenses.

 

The operating department said they couldn’t handle it.   But first they egregiously and falsely claimed that such banana business would require the assignment of six locomotives, and they just didn’t have six locomotives to spare.  Six was less than 0.55% of our locomotive fleet. 

 

So, they claimed to need six locomotives to move 40 flatcars a week.  This drove the cost up and, in any event, they claimed they didn’t have the locomotives.  When I questioned the need for six locomotives and suggested a way to do it with just two, I was told: “Things just don’t work that way.”   Of course, I was assuming they could round trip a locomotive between Gulfport and Chicago in a week. 

 

I don’t know why they did this. Maybe they just didn’t want to mess with hauling bananas.

 

In any event, I had to tell Chiquita we couldn’t handle their offered business. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[timz]

greyhounds

  The barrier to this market developement was internal resistance from our own [ICG] bureaucracies.

Why did they resist?

[Jackflash]

In 1967  I worked for The ICRR in Gulfport as a Switchman (had to cover Hattiesburg too).  I was young and single and did not like the extra board or the once in a while drive to Hattiesburg for a single days pay, I do remember the banana trains, one would leave Gulfport around midnight, not solid bananas but mostly refers.  At that time Gulfport had four yard engines working, the two oclock job would work the port and pull the bananas and re-spot emptys, the eleven PM job would work the port too, for other business.

[samfp1943]

Having grown up in Memphis,Tn. and started trucking there; Much of the GREEN Bananas off of the Gulf Coast ports went thru our area. The usual trade talk,in the refrigerated trucking business was ":...Meat South and Bananas Morth..."  

Gulfoport was a major access point to the produce % ( green bananas); the other ports, not nearly AS 'heavy' for the 'monkey pickles'; as Gulfport seemed to be  at that time.        Chiquita (brand) was popular around the Mid-South then.  there were others, but all the grocery wholesalers seemed to receive them for their distribution.

I know the topic on this Thread is the green bananabusiness, but I think that it is interesting to note that post WWII, The Illinois Central ran solid trains of those bananas North. In fact, the ICRR maintained a major refrigerated car icing facility at Soutuh Fulton, Ky.   At that time, most of those northboundf trains ran the line (Mississippi Hill Country line)  North from Jackson, thru Grenada, to Jackson,Tn  snd into South Fulton  (Ie: That routing was still very, active during those times)

It might be of interest to note also; Out of the South Louisiana (Hamond,La., particularly) area. The Illinois Central via its numerous northbound passenger trains; hauled,in their season, load after load, of fresh strawberries.  

  They were loaded into baggage cars; and rushed north on fast schedules.  Many trains wqould arrive at the Memphis Central Train Station, many with multiple baggage cars of those freah strawberries....  AMAZING....THESE DAYS, Most likely, no way....

[kgbw49]

BaltACD, if one zooms over to the large warehouse buiding on the west side of the quay, you can see a railspur that is inlaid with concrete panels that heads in to the actual Chiquita Brands Loading Warehouse.

I'd expect that spur to probably not in use for the intermodal service, of course.

But on the east side of that quay, one can see another spur inlaid with concrete panels running down along the container terminal area almost all the way to the south end of the quay.

Perhaps that might be in use for the intermodal service?

One other interesting viewing feature: I know CPKC owns the line into Gulfport and CN has trackage rights.

If one follows the line up to the north you'll come across a small engine terminal which looks to have four SD40-2s and three GP38-2s parked on the terminal tracks (or stabled as our Australian friends say). It is hard to tell what their paint jobs are, but it looks like they might be leased former SP as they seem to have red noses and gray cabs and bodies.