San Bernardino has been a craphole for many years.
The $1300.00 fine for being on the platform without a ticket qualifies as robbery to me.
A News Broadcast today;mentioned a factoid: That over a million folks have fled California inmthe last couple of years. It was further noted that their reason for leaving was due to a high cost of living.... { The previuous fine,mentioned by OP would be like telling folks to 'go away'.. Certainly,Unwelcoming.. }
samfp1943A News Broadcast today;mentioned a factoid: That over a million folks have fled California inmthe last couple of years. It was further noted that their reason for leaving was due to a high cost of living.
One reason among many. From those who's business it is to know:
https://www.pods.com/blog/people-leaving-california
Ulrich The $1300.00 fine for being on the platform without a ticket qualifies as robbery to me.
A mugger's not likely to be discouraged by a $1300 fine. Besides, do they really expect to collect it from some professional two-legged predator?
At any rate "Ticketed Passengers Only Beyond This Point" signage isn't unusual at some stations, but that $1300 fine seems a bit excessive.
Trespassing is trespassing. Don't want to pay $1300, then don't trespass.
NittanyLion Trespassing is trespassing. Don't want to pay $1300, then don't trespass.
I never trespass..when I go to CA i always rent a car..that way I'm treated like a customer, and I avoid the rude signage. And what if I'm on the platform without a ticket and simply helping an elderly person with her bags? I guess I qualify for the $1300.00 fine. Nice..
What's particularly vile to me about this is that the "$1300" fine is actually the cost if you're caught riding the train without a properly-validated proof of fare payment. To eliminate some of the issue with homeless and transients, California started restricting access to the platform area so they could extend the authority to check for valid proof to those "about" to board the train, not just those physically present aboard it.
No problem with accusations about, say, racial or socioeconomic profiling, or warrants for any kind of search -- any officer is entitled to request proof of currently validated fare at any time, for any reason, and failure to produce is the crime. Off you go! I have seen how efficient the zugpolizei were when riding the San Jose light rail a few years ago -- the looks on people's faces as the fully-armed blackshirts swung through the cars gave me a good idea what it must have been like during the pass-law era in South Africa, and the efficiency with which one culprit was arrested, cuffed, and hauled off in a squad car at the next stop, theater in full view of the passengers, was a sobering deterrent for anyone who might be tempted to cheat the 'honor system'.
There should be no "honor system". You buy a ticket and get on.. no ticket no service.
UlrichThere should be no "honor system". You buy a ticket and get on.. no ticket no service.
Of course the option to just buy a ticket then is off the table, pour decourager des autres, and to make it really, really, really undesirable not to pay your ~5% contribution toward your fair share of the cost, the fine and associated fees are made out of all proportion to the "offense". Plus all the public shaming and police arrogance.
Overmod Ulrich There should be no "honor system". You buy a ticket and get on.. no ticket no service. You see, it costs lots of money to gate and access-control all the platforms so you need the ticket to get near or on the train. And for security to maintain the gates. It costs even more to have conductors who can sell you a ticket onboard if you get caught without one. So the rule is you pay at the open platform and ride until someone confirms you paid as you should. Of course the option to just buy a ticket then is off the table, pour decourager des autres, and to make it really, really, really undesirable not to pay your ~5% contribution toward your fair share of the cost, the fine and associated fees are made out of all proportion to the "offense". Plus all the public shaming and police arrogance.
Ulrich There should be no "honor system". You buy a ticket and get on.. no ticket no service.
You see, it costs lots of money to gate and access-control all the platforms so you need the ticket to get near or on the train. And for security to maintain the gates. It costs even more to have conductors who can sell you a ticket onboard if you get caught without one. So the rule is you pay at the open platform and ride until someone confirms you paid as you should.
I guess I'm from another era.. I liked it better when public shaming and police arrogance weren't part of the equation...but who knows.. maybe that's the best way to go.
Have you tried asking for permission to be there? I think they would write you up a nice letter if you have permission and allow you to take photo's to your hearts desire. I think most railroads would.
It's not that your on the platform, it's more they have no clue who you are or why your on the platform that is the issue. Your forcing them to guess and most companies when they are forced into guessing will guess worst case scenario.
CMStPnP Ulrich The $1300.00 fine for being on the platform without a ticket qualifies as robbery to me. Have you tried asking for permission to be there? I think they would write you up a nice letter if you have permission and allow you to take photo's to your hearts desire. I think most railroads would. It's not that your on the platform, it's more they have no clue who you are or why your on the platform that is the issue. Your forcing them to guess and most companies when they are forced into guessing will guess worst case scenario.
Not around here... yet. I pick family up at the local train station all the time.. When the train arrives the platform is usually packed with people anxious to meet those who are arriving by train. Hopefully that never changes.. No need to ask for permission to be there.. not yet anyway. Probably that will change.. it's a slippery slope and we're already on it and well underway. Shame will go some to make the honor system work better.. nobody wants to be shamed and humilated. But fear works even better than shame.. replace shame with fear and now you've got an honor system that works perfectly..
The track 2 platform at Utica, NY is completely open to the public - there's public parking adjacent and no fences. Track 1 is equally open, but you have to go into the station in order to use the overhead walkway.
Several years ago, I saw TSA there checking things out, but I don't know as they did anything.
Railfans can hang out on the platform, or in the overhead walkway (during the day) - a popular place if the weather is foul. The station building is closed overnight.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I'm not sure I understand the problem.
At airports, only ticketed passengers enter gates. I don't believe the guards would be too pleasant when they arrest someone entering without a ticket so he could get a good photo.
Riding trains through Europe this past summer, we found some stations that did not allow platform access without a ticket. I have no idea what the penalty would be, but it didn't seem to be too much of a problem to have guards at the platform entry gates checking tickets.
One train had four teenage boys run through the car knocking into everybody in their way, followed by train personnel chasing them them. We assumed they didn't have tickets.
York1 John
York1 I'm not sure I understand the problem. At airports, only ticketed passengers enter gates. I don't believe the guards would be too pleasant when they arrest someone entering without a ticket so he could get a good photo. Riding trains through Europe this past summer, we found some stations that did not allow platform access without a ticket. I have no idea what the penalty would be, but it didn't seem to be too much of a problem to have guards at the platform entry gates checking tickets. One train had four teenage boys run through the car knocking into everybody in their way, followed by train personnel chasing them them. We assumed they didn't have tickets.
There's really no problem for those of us who have acquiesced..i.e. those of us who have accepted having to ask an "authority" for permission for almost everything.. and for those of us who have accepted as normal public shaming and humiliation and being hauled off in a squad car into the darkness of night for not having a train ticket in hand. There's no probem at all. The problem lies with those of us who have pushed back on that.. but don't worry.. there are fewer of us every year, and we too will either acquiesce or die off, making way for the New Order.
I travel througout Europe extensively every year, and things are changing there too. For the most part platform access is completely open to anyone in most smaller and midsize towns, while the larger cities do limit access to ticket holders. But there are still some areas that are refreshingly free.. Zurich for example.. one can walk right into the train station and to the platform and onto a train completely unimpeded.. I did that. on my way from Zurich to Munich. The only contact I had with any train personnel was a friendly hostess who asked if I would like another glass of wine. No one asked me for a ticket although i had one on my phone.. this was pretty normal in Europe. Occasionally we would be asked to show our tickets.. no problem. Coming back form Saltzburg we saw first hand what happens to someone who cannot produce a ticket.. the train "conductor" asked her to buy a ticket.. she pulled out a credit card.. and within seconds the transaction was completed.. conductor even said thank you. No one got shamed or hauled off.
Airports are not train stations, bus stops, or taxi stands. Do we want to go through the same type of security clearance every time we board a train or a city bus? I vote no..
Ulrich York1 I'm not sure I understand the problem. At airports, only ticketed passengers enter gates. I don't believe the guards would be too pleasant when they arrest someone entering without a ticket so he could get a good photo. Riding trains through Europe this past summer, we found some stations that did not allow platform access without a ticket. I have no idea what the penalty would be, but it didn't seem to be too much of a problem to have guards at the platform entry gates checking tickets. One train had four teenage boys run through the car knocking into everybody in their way, followed by train personnel chasing them them. We assumed they didn't have tickets. There's really no problem for those of us who have acquiesced..i.e. those of us who have accepted having to ask an "authority" for permission for almost everything.. and for those of us who have accepted as normal public shaming and humiliation and being hauled off in a squad car into the darkness of night for not having a train ticket in hand. There's no probem at all. The problem lies with those of us who have pushed back on that.. but don't worry.. there are fewer of us every year, and we too will either acquiesce or die off, making way for the New Order. I travel througout Europe extensively every year, and things are changing there too. For the most part platform access is completely open to anyone in most smaller and midsize towns, while the larger cities do limit access to ticket holders. But there are still some areas that are refreshingly free.. Zurich for example.. one can walk right into the train station and to the platform and onto a train completely unimpeded.. I did that. on my way from Zurich to Munich. The only contact I had with any train personnel was a friendly hostess who asked if I would like another glass of wine. No one asked me for a ticket although i had one on my phone.. this was pretty normal in Europe. Occasionally we would be asked to show our tickets.. no problem. Coming back form Saltzburg we saw first hand what happens to someone who cannot produce a ticket.. the train "conductor" asked her to buy a ticket.. she pulled out a credit card.. and within seconds the transaction was completed.. conductor even said thank you. No one got shamed or hauled off. Airports are not train stations, bus stops, or taxi stands. Do we want to go through the same type of security clearance every time we board a train or a city bus? I vote no..
I'm curious, in which major European cities have you encountered restricted platform access? I have vague memories of some of the Paris stations doing that, but every major city I've traveled through in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria has unrestricted platform access.
Psychot Ulrich York1 I'm not sure I understand the problem. At airports, only ticketed passengers enter gates. I don't believe the guards would be too pleasant when they arrest someone entering without a ticket so he could get a good photo. Riding trains through Europe this past summer, we found some stations that did not allow platform access without a ticket. I have no idea what the penalty would be, but it didn't seem to be too much of a problem to have guards at the platform entry gates checking tickets. One train had four teenage boys run through the car knocking into everybody in their way, followed by train personnel chasing them them. We assumed they didn't have tickets. There's really no problem for those of us who have acquiesced..i.e. those of us who have accepted having to ask an "authority" for permission for almost everything.. and for those of us who have accepted as normal public shaming and humiliation and being hauled off in a squad car into the darkness of night for not having a train ticket in hand. There's no probem at all. The problem lies with those of us who have pushed back on that.. but don't worry.. there are fewer of us every year, and we too will either acquiesce or die off, making way for the New Order. I travel througout Europe extensively every year, and things are changing there too. For the most part platform access is completely open to anyone in most smaller and midsize towns, while the larger cities do limit access to ticket holders. But there are still some areas that are refreshingly free.. Zurich for example.. one can walk right into the train station and to the platform and onto a train completely unimpeded.. I did that. on my way from Zurich to Munich. The only contact I had with any train personnel was a friendly hostess who asked if I would like another glass of wine. No one asked me for a ticket although i had one on my phone.. this was pretty normal in Europe. Occasionally we would be asked to show our tickets.. no problem. Coming back form Saltzburg we saw first hand what happens to someone who cannot produce a ticket.. the train "conductor" asked her to buy a ticket.. she pulled out a credit card.. and within seconds the transaction was completed.. conductor even said thank you. No one got shamed or hauled off. Airports are not train stations, bus stops, or taxi stands. Do we want to go through the same type of security clearance every time we board a train or a city bus? I vote no.. I'm curious, in which major European cities have you encountered restricted platform access? I have vague memories of some of the Paris stations doing that, but every major city I've traveled through in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria has unrestricted platform access.
That's exactly what I said.. unrestricted access apart from some big cities.
Paris, Rome, Venice, Munich limit access..probably a few others that don't come to mind at the moment.
My memory is not real good for remembering which stations are which. I believe Munich, Florence, and Rome were doing this, but I can't remember for sure. Most of the stations and trains did not ever check tickets.
croteauddAs far as that other forum’s report of a robbery attempt, somehow I think they were inexperienced fools. But their failure may have emboldened them, so they’ll return with knives, or worst, guns. Inexperienced robbers are the worst type! Experienced robbers are calm, successful, and nobody gets hurt.
So should we ask for an updated resume if we are robbed?
York1My memory is not real good for remembering which stations are which. I believe Munich, Florence, and Rome were doing this, but I can't remember for sure. Most of the stations and trains did not ever check tickets.
Which is what we should strive for here. The reason for this approach is because local tickets can be bought and validated on the platform via machine reducing the lines at the ticket office.........if they even still exist over in Europe.
DART in Dallas is the same way so is Trinity Railway Express. Buy your tickets on the platform before you board the train, platforms are open. Amtrak platform is open due to the other platforms being open at Dallas Union Station. Kansas City Union Station the platform is closed but probably only because having people that close to a busy mainline surrounded by buildings would be dangerous. I don't think Amtrak cares otherwise. Milwaukee platform is closed because the mainline through the station is used by CPKC at the moment. After the diversion project is completed for CPKC to avoid the Milwaukee Amtrak station at some point that might change in the future. Probably not right away though.
Cannot believe Chicago Metra collects tickets still and has all those people on the payroll. Dallas will show them the way here. Dallas rail system is growing and have not heard of any initiative to hire an army of ticket collectors or ticket sales people. Honor system works for 7 million people and growing.
I'm having trouble editing a post, so I will just correct it this way. Thinking more about this, I really don't recall Munich's station, so I cannot say they checked tickets there.
Ulrich NittanyLion Trespassing is trespassing. Don't want to pay $1300, then don't trespass. I never trespass..when I go to CA i always rent a car..that way I'm treated like a customer, and I avoid the rude signage. And what if I'm on the platform without a ticket and simply helping an elderly person with her bags? I guess I qualify for the $1300.00 fine. Nice..
I wasn't in München this summer, but the Berlin, Dresden, Mainz and Frankfurt stations were all open access.
Ticketing is checked on long distance and regional trains. On S-Bahn, ticket checking is random. Most people have a ticket on their Handy (phone) and on ICE trains, one can check in electronically so conductor doesn't even need to check you.
Ulrich Psychot Ulrich York1 I'm not sure I understand the problem. At airports, only ticketed passengers enter gates. I don't believe the guards would be too pleasant when they arrest someone entering without a ticket so he could get a good photo. Riding trains through Europe this past summer, we found some stations that did not allow platform access without a ticket. I have no idea what the penalty would be, but it didn't seem to be too much of a problem to have guards at the platform entry gates checking tickets. One train had four teenage boys run through the car knocking into everybody in their way, followed by train personnel chasing them them. We assumed they didn't have tickets. There's really no problem for those of us who have acquiesced..i.e. those of us who have accepted having to ask an "authority" for permission for almost everything.. and for those of us who have accepted as normal public shaming and humiliation and being hauled off in a squad car into the darkness of night for not having a train ticket in hand. There's no probem at all. The problem lies with those of us who have pushed back on that.. but don't worry.. there are fewer of us every year, and we too will either acquiesce or die off, making way for the New Order. I travel througout Europe extensively every year, and things are changing there too. For the most part platform access is completely open to anyone in most smaller and midsize towns, while the larger cities do limit access to ticket holders. But there are still some areas that are refreshingly free.. Zurich for example.. one can walk right into the train station and to the platform and onto a train completely unimpeded.. I did that. on my way from Zurich to Munich. The only contact I had with any train personnel was a friendly hostess who asked if I would like another glass of wine. No one asked me for a ticket although i had one on my phone.. this was pretty normal in Europe. Occasionally we would be asked to show our tickets.. no problem. Coming back form Saltzburg we saw first hand what happens to someone who cannot produce a ticket.. the train "conductor" asked her to buy a ticket.. she pulled out a credit card.. and within seconds the transaction was completed.. conductor even said thank you. No one got shamed or hauled off. Airports are not train stations, bus stops, or taxi stands. Do we want to go through the same type of security clearance every time we board a train or a city bus? I vote no.. I'm curious, in which major European cities have you encountered restricted platform access? I have vague memories of some of the Paris stations doing that, but every major city I've traveled through in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria has unrestricted platform access. That's exactly what I said.. unrestricted access apart from some big cities. Paris, Rome, Venice, Munich limit access..probably a few others that don't come to mind at the moment.
I went through Munich last week, and there was still open access to the platforms. I'm sure you're right about the other ones though.
charlie hebdo I wasn't in München this summer, but the Berlin, Dresden, Mainz and Frankfurt stations were all open access. Ticketing is checked on long distance and regional trains. On S-Bahn, ticket checking is random. Most people have a ticket on their Handy (phone) and on ICE trains, one can check in electronically so conductor doesn't even need to check you.
BTW, Deutsche Bahn's service level has really deteriorated. It seems like most of their trains run late these days (though of course not the several-hour delays Amtrak is known for). I remember looking at the big board in Frankfurt last week and something like 60% of the trains were running late. Some smarta$$ wrote "Delay Bahn" above the DB sign at a station outside Bonn, and they weren't wrong.
Psychot charlie hebdo I wasn't in München this summer, but the Berlin, Dresden, Mainz and Frankfurt stations were all open access. Ticketing is checked on long distance and regional trains. On S-Bahn, ticket checking is random. Most people have a ticket on their Handy (phone) and on ICE trains, one can check in electronically so conductor doesn't even need to check you. BTW, Deutsche Bahn's service level has really deteriorated. It seems like most of their trains run late these days (though of course not the several-hour delays Amtrak is known for). I remember looking at the big board in Frankfurt last week and something like 60% of the trains were running late. Some smarta$$ wrote "Delay Bahn" above the DB sign at a station outside Bonn, and they weren't wrong.
My understanding is that part of the problem is insufficient capacity on many lines. With the €49 for one month unlimited rides on RE, RB and IR trains plus more travelers in general, trains are overcrowded. On ICE and IC trains, reservations are now wise. The new IC trainsets are double decked to increase capacity.
No delays on any of the trains I took in Germany recently..maybe they knew I was coming. On our way from Paris to Zurich, however, our train ran late, and the Swiss would not allow it to enter...thus we had to make alternative arrangements for the last leg to Zurich. The Swiss take punctuality very seriously..trains, trams and busses are punctual to within a minute. If you're late you lose. Late trains from other countries are not tolerated and are barred from entry.
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