So was the stuff in 55 gallon drums, or was it in glass bottles? Or maybe the glass bottles were inside the drums?????
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
caldreamer Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsequent explosion.
Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsequent explosion.
According to what I've read, the car hadn't moved in several hours.
I would suppose there is the possibility of a transferred shock, ie another car or cars impacting the string of cars within which the subject car was located.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsuquent explosion.
blue streak 1 How did we miss this? Almost 8 hours without any posting Explosion at world's largest railyard in Nebraska prompts evacuations because of heavy toxic smoke (msn.com)
How did we miss this? Almost 8 hours without any posting
Explosion at world's largest railyard in Nebraska prompts evacuations because of heavy toxic smoke (msn.com)
EuclidTo me, the lid found a distance from the container indicates that the lid separated from a drum due to the explosion. This indicates that the explosion happened before the lid separated, and therefore the failure of the shipping container was not due the lid separating from the drum (if by “shipping container” you are referring to a drum).
By shipping container, I mean the IM box. There were reports of several explosions. One or more likely caused failure of the IM box, with a subsequent explosion sending the lid flying.
If the IM box had not failed, the lid would not have been found a distance from the site. Aerial images showed the IM box failed.
tree68 Just using the weight of water as a guideline (I have no idea what perchloric acid weighs - it's probably more than water) the volume of the acid was well over the 1000 pound placarding requirement (22,000 lbs, based on water). That a drum lid was found a distance from the site certainly indicates that the shipping container failed. Several explosions were noted, per the report, so no surprise. The stuff clearly packs a kick. The media report was pretty straightforward - I didn't detect any sensationalism, and aside from a possible delay in reporting the contents by UP, it doesn't sound like local government has any issues. Given reports of explosions and aerial images showing the container pretty messed up, it's not surprising that the placards may have been destroyed or otherwise made illegible.
Just using the weight of water as a guideline (I have no idea what perchloric acid weighs - it's probably more than water) the volume of the acid was well over the 1000 pound placarding requirement (22,000 lbs, based on water).
That a drum lid was found a distance from the site certainly indicates that the shipping container failed. Several explosions were noted, per the report, so no surprise. The stuff clearly packs a kick.
The media report was pretty straightforward - I didn't detect any sensationalism, and aside from a possible delay in reporting the contents by UP, it doesn't sound like local government has any issues.
Given reports of explosions and aerial images showing the container pretty messed up, it's not surprising that the placards may have been destroyed or otherwise made illegible.
To me, the lid found a distance from the container indicates that the lid separated from a drum due to the explosion. This indicates that the explosion happened before the lid separated, and therefore the failure of the shipping container was not due the lid separating from the drum (if by “shipping container” you are referring to a drum).
I have no conclusive opinion as to the cause of the explosion and fire, but mishandling the product seems most likely. The fact that the load was humped while it was ordered Do Not Hump is a red flag, but there is no evidence that the humping impact was high enough to cause a breach of drums. Usually such drums have to pass a drop test, which is likely to be much more disruptive than even an exceptionally high hump coupling impact.
Another possible explanation for the incident is a spill during the filling of the drums. The news article cites the possibility of spilling the Perchloric acid onto the wood shipping pallet under the drum where it then soaked into the wood and dried. If this had occurred during the filling of the drums, prior to shipping, it would be a likely cause of the subsequent fire and explosion.
The use of pallets made of wood seems unlikely due to the absorbency of wood. But even if the pallets were made of non-absorbent plastic, the same fire-explosion risk due to spilled residue on the surface of the pallet would have existed.
Post from Train Board
Hytec TrainBoard.com I dealt with perchloric acid in school chem lab, nasty stuff. Stronger than Sulfuric or Hydrochloric acids. Here's a brief description.Perchloric acid is a strong acid used for complete digestions of organic material. It is normally supplied in bottles of up to one gallon in capacity at 70-72% strength. In many respects, its hazards are similar to those of nitric acid, as both are strong oxidants.It was carried in the container in glass bottles. It can be carried only in glass. There may have been combustible material also in the container. Possibly the container was dropped or jarred drastically which broke some of the acid bottles. All that had to happen was for the acid to find a combustible: cardboard, wooden crate, pallet, dirt residue on the container floor. Bingo, instant fire of near explosive proportions. Heat then would have caused a chain reaction.
I dealt with perchloric acid in school chem lab, nasty stuff. Stronger than Sulfuric or Hydrochloric acids. Here's a brief description.Perchloric acid is a strong acid used for complete digestions of organic material. It is normally supplied in bottles of up to one gallon in capacity at 70-72% strength. In many respects, its hazards are similar to those of nitric acid, as both are strong oxidants.It was carried in the container in glass bottles. It can be carried only in glass. There may have been combustible material also in the container. Possibly the container was dropped or jarred drastically which broke some of the acid bottles. All that had to happen was for the acid to find a combustible: cardboard, wooden crate, pallet, dirt residue on the container floor. Bingo, instant fire of near explosive proportions. Heat then would have caused a chain reaction.
YMMV
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid More news is coming out about the Bailey Yard explosion and fire. A developing theory of cause points to rough handling of the railcar. The car was subject to DO NOT HUMP, but it was humped anyway. There were 50 drums of the Perchloric acid filled with 55 gallons each. Reportedly, the drums were standing on wooden pallets and may have leaked due to the hump impact. Perchloric acid can explode or catch fire if it comes in contact with wood. Here is a link to the news story: Lincoln County Board says answers needed from U.P. on Bailey Yard explosion and fire https://nptelegraph.com/news/local/business/union-pacific-bailey-yard-north-platte/article_2d9b6d54-566b-11ee-980b-cf9ba1b73dea.html
The standard canned response here will be to attack the media or local government folks.
From where to where may tell us something?
caldreamerWhy don't we wait until the factual report comes out?
What fun is that?
Besides, it's more like lining up questions we'd like answers to.
We do not know exactly the weight of the perchloric acid without the shipping documents. All is speculation at this point. I will be looking for the NTSB investiation report to find out exactly what happened. Why don't we wait until the factual report comes out?
I would expect that if a steel (or other metal) drum were to be used at all, it would be suitably lined.
Given that it has been reported that the acid was in drums, there aren't a lot of choices. Plastic would seem to be the most likely answer. I don't think I've ever seen a glass 55 gallon drum.
Almost all of the references I found in searching for storing it indicate the need for secondary containment. They also indicate that even cardboard can be an issue...
tree68 Euclid And I wonder if Perchloric acid is routinely shipped this way, or if this may have been the first time. I would opine that this was hardly the first time. The SDS I found emphasized keeping it away from steel, etc, meaning the drums were likely lined with a corrosion resistant substance. My impression is that something failed, such as one of the drums or the corrosion protective lining therein.
Euclid And I wonder if Perchloric acid is routinely shipped this way, or if this may have been the first time.
I would opine that this was hardly the first time. The SDS I found emphasized keeping it away from steel, etc, meaning the drums were likely lined with a corrosion resistant substance.
My impression is that something failed, such as one of the drums or the corrosion protective lining therein.
caldreamer YES, UP would know the contents of the container. The shipping container would have the placards on the sides. If they did not the UP should not have accepted the container. As stated in an earlier post, the waybills which contain the contents of each shipment are sent to the railroad electronically.
YES, UP would know the contents of the container. The shipping container would have the placards on the sides. If they did not the UP should not have accepted the container. As stated in an earlier post, the waybills which contain the contents of each shipment are sent to the railroad electronically.
I ask because of this:
DOT Chart 15 When the aggregate gross weight of all hazardous materials in non-bulk packages covered in Table 2 is less than 454 kg (1,001 lbs), no placard is required on a transport vehicle or freight container when transported by highway or rail [§172.504(c)].
When the aggregate gross weight of all hazardous materials in non-bulk packages covered in Table 2 is less than 454 kg (1,001 lbs), no placard is required on a transport vehicle or freight container when transported by highway or rail [§172.504(c)].
So if the container had a mixed cargo of material with the hazmat making up less than a 1000 pound lot, no placard would be required on the container. Conversely, if the container was placarded, it would tend to indicate that there was more than 1000 pounds of the material in the container.
YES, UP would know the contents of the container. The shipping container would have the placards on the sides. If they did not the UP should not have accepted the container. As stated in an earlier post, the waybills which contain the contents of each shipment are sent to the railroad electonically.
caldreamer...perchloric acid concentrated up to 72 percent has to be placarded. That means the the container would have to have 2 placards, one poison (6.1) and one for corrosive (8).
That certainly applies to the drums the acid was reportedly being shipped in. Does it apply to the shipping container, regardless of volume?
49usc172.102 (the hazardous materials table), perchloric acid concentrated up to 72 percent has to be placarded. That means the the container would have to have 2 placards, one poison (6.1) and one for corrosive (8). If perchloric acid comes in contact with any metal it can produce metalic pechlorates which can explode according to the SDS for perchloric acid. We do not know what material was used for these drums, so we are guessing.
EuclidAnd I wonder if Perchloric acid is routinely shipped this way, or if this may have been the first time.
Here is a link that describes an accidental explosion of Perchloric acid:
https://www.jst.umn.edu/learning-experience-reports/past-lers/perchloric-acid-explosion
Interestingly, the explosion occurred after the train had been stopped for some hours. Among other precautions, this document states: “Again NEVER heat perchloric acid even in diluted solutions”
I don’t know how much heat is too much, but I wonder about the interior of a metal shipping container standing still in the hot sun of a clear summer day. I also wonder how much space there is for the Perchloric acid to expand as it warms up inside of the 55 gallon drums if they are sealed tight.
And I wonder if Perchloric acid is routinely shipped this way, or if this may have been the first time.
What I recall from my railroad days is that the commodity in a freight car was identified because the rate depended on what was being shipped. In the case of a container, what is being shipped is the container, not it's content. So then identifying the content reverts back to the rules on shipping hazardous material. Getting container content, even an accurate weight, was a problem when there was an issue. They started using scales built into the container lifting machines to get weights so they knew which container to put on top and to not overload the rail car.
We seem to be talking about two types of paperwork. One is the waybill, the other is the train list. Paper waybills are no longer used. It's all in the computer. The train list is what the crews carry, or access on the railroad issued electronic device. (They want and think they can go paperless, but I think it's not practical for all items.) The train list, still called by some as the "wheel" or "wheel report," is generated by the computer using info from the waybills of the cars. I've looked up a waybill before. It has all the info the old paper ones do, but it doesn't look anything like the old paper ones.
Train lists only have so much room for listing the lading being carried. On a FAK type load, the container will only be listed as MIXFRT. If there is hazmat sufficient to require placards and shipping info, each piece of hazmat will have all the info, just as a tank car of hazmat would. If their are multiple classifications of hazmat in the same container, each would be listed separately and each have the hazmat shipping info.
In an ordinary container of mixed freight, no hazmat, the crew won't know the contents of said container, but the railroad does. The crew in this case doesn't need to know whether it's loaded with anything from soup to nuts. Only that it won't go "boom" if involved in a derailment.
If the car, with the container, wasn't in a train or not yet scheduled to be moved by a yard engine, no one in the yard might have a list of any kind. The first person to see the smoke would immediately call the yardmaster or other authority and say there's a car on fire on track whatever. The closer the observer is the more details can be given. The yardmaster will then look up the tracks, maybe even adjacent tracks to be sure, looking for cars with nasty stuff in them. A yard is probably the best place for something like this to happen. It's the one location that complete info can be quickly accessed and proper authorities notified.
Jeff
PNWRMNM Euclid The shipping papers for intermodal shipments, for the most part DO NOT SPECIFY the actual material being shipped. Freight All Kinds - is not a specific description of the contents of intermodal shipments. Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds? Or is this just an assumption? It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper. FAK is a rate making description ONLY. With very few exceptions shippers must properly describe any and all hazardous materials they offer for transportation. Since UP was able to identify the material quickly, I conclude that the material was properly described as required. Mac McCulloch Former Bureau of Explosives Inspector
Euclid The shipping papers for intermodal shipments, for the most part DO NOT SPECIFY the actual material being shipped. Freight All Kinds - is not a specific description of the contents of intermodal shipments. Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds? Or is this just an assumption? It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper.
FAK is a rate making description ONLY.
With very few exceptions shippers must properly describe any and all hazardous materials they offer for transportation. Since UP was able to identify the material quickly, I conclude that the material was properly described as required.
Mac McCulloch
Former Bureau of Explosives Inspector
EuclidThe shipping papers for intermodal shipments, for the most part DO NOT SPECIFY the actual material being shipped. Freight All Kinds - is not a specific description of the contents of intermodal shipments. Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds? Or is this just an assumption? It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper.
UN1873
The Emergency Response Guide can be found here:
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/2020-08/ERG2020-WEB.pdf
One SDS I found has the NFPA 704 as Health: 3, Flammability: 0, Instability: 3, with an oxidizer modifier.
They expand on that with:
Reactive Hazard - Yes
Stability - Oxidizer: Contact with combustible/organic material may cause fire.
Conditions to Avoid - Incompatible products. Excess heat. Combustible material.
Incompatible Materials - Strong oxidizing agents, Finely powdered metals, Organic materials, Amines, Alcohols, Strong reducing agents, Combustible material
So, by itself, it's not a fire hazard. But if you combine it with certain other things, watch out.
Lot of explaiing. My Out of date Haz Mat book not available. Was shipper's book current? Were all persons that hamdled this Haz Mat current and not lacking recurrent training? Shipper becomes the target. Did shipper have license to send this product and did shipper have any restrictions?
This product appears to be a Haz Mat explosive.If so probably be plackard one of the 3 explosive number 1s? What was the total weight of the whole product shipment?. Was it shipped in one container or many required to not exeed a certain weight? Any separation requirements?
Was or Did driver examine load before it was sealed? Any possible load shifts along the way truck or railcar?
Was product free of contaminants to restrict combusstion?
Perchloric acid is a strong peroxide former -- those crystals are peroxides, and shock-sensitive, and explosive.
For a discussion in general:
https://safety.fsu.edu/safety_manual/supporting_docs/Peroxides%20in%20depth%20discussion.pdf
tree68 Euclid Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds? Or is this just an assumption? It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper. I think we're just covering possible bases, particularly if the container was not placarded. At this point, we don't that that it wasn't. Given that the material was apparently identified early on, one might be safe in assuming that it was in a placarded container or that the contents were otherwise identified. Actually, CHEMTREC may have had that information based on the ID of the container. Per a news report, the perchloric acid was in 55 gallon drums. That might tend to indicate that the container in question was fully loaded with them. The container on top of the one in question contained memory foam - which is going to make for a pretty smoky fire. The MSDS (SDS) for perchloric acid mentions that it may react with metal. (Opinion Alert) Perhaps one of the containers failed (however slightly) and the resultant corrosion caused a larger release. (Opinion Alert) If this was a mixed shipment, there could have been a reaction with some other substance. We'll have to wait until more information is forthcoming, if it's made public.
Euclid Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds? Or is this just an assumption? It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper.
I think we're just covering possible bases, particularly if the container was not placarded. At this point, we don't that that it wasn't.
Given that the material was apparently identified early on, one might be safe in assuming that it was in a placarded container or that the contents were otherwise identified. Actually, CHEMTREC may have had that information based on the ID of the container.
Per a news report, the perchloric acid was in 55 gallon drums. That might tend to indicate that the container in question was fully loaded with them.
The container on top of the one in question contained memory foam - which is going to make for a pretty smoky fire.
The MSDS (SDS) for perchloric acid mentions that it may react with metal. (Opinion Alert) Perhaps one of the containers failed (however slightly) and the resultant corrosion caused a larger release.
(Opinion Alert) If this was a mixed shipment, there could have been a reaction with some other substance.
We'll have to wait until more information is forthcoming, if it's made public.
EuclidDo we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds? Or is this just an assumption? It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.