This is supposed to be the standard used for this. However some will call them less than scrupulous carriers won't use them. They think that it isn't that bad or they won't have trouble. They literally are playing with people's lives with how they treat hazmat sometimes. But until the fmcsa or other alphabet agencies that regulate how stuff like this is shipped step up accidents like what happened in North Platte will happen.
Shadow the Cats owner How we require it to be shipped is sealed ceramic containers we require a double o rings silicone seal secondary sealed on the outside with wax then it's placed inside a framework of the water-filled container. We basically nest the acid container inside another container full of water. We've never had a release of it that was undesired. But when we're moving it we'll have a team on the truck. This stuff is to freaking nasty to play with and we routinely play with the worst of the worst in corrosive world. So if we're scared to mess with this crap I don't really want it messed around with.
How we require it to be shipped is sealed ceramic containers we require a double o rings silicone seal secondary sealed on the outside with wax then it's placed inside a framework of the water-filled container. We basically nest the acid container inside another container full of water. We've never had a release of it that was undesired. But when we're moving it we'll have a team on the truck. This stuff is to freaking nasty to play with and we routinely play with the worst of the worst in corrosive world. So if we're scared to mess with this crap I don't really want it messed around with.
This info below is NOT to explain fully or minimize the perchloric explosion. As Jeff has said, we need a lot more information.
Upon research, I discovered .....but aqueous solutions up to approximately 70% by weight at room temperature are generally safe.
Thus the comment about food/drugs may be applicable, when mentioned in the Trains News article several days ago. After all, look at almost all your medicine.... it contains hydrochloric acid. HCl (often in the name of the medicine). endmrw0925231320
Shadow the Cats owner Peracholric acid has a reportable quantity of anything meaning if you have an ounce of this stuff you'd better have corrosive placards in place. It loves to react with anything organic or that has carbonates. It's considered more dangerous than red nitric acid will explosive react with wood metal glass and certain plastics. If being shipped in liquid then it requires Ceramic lined containers held in suspension in water. We sometimes haul it but if we do the rate we charge well let's just say our customers don't ask us to move it very often. We start the rate at 20 a mile for us to move it.
Peracholric acid has a reportable quantity of anything meaning if you have an ounce of this stuff you'd better have corrosive placards in place. It loves to react with anything organic or that has carbonates. It's considered more dangerous than red nitric acid will explosive react with wood metal glass and certain plastics. If being shipped in liquid then it requires Ceramic lined containers held in suspension in water. We sometimes haul it but if we do the rate we charge well let's just say our customers don't ask us to move it very often. We start the rate at 20 a mile for us to move it.
Thanks for that information. About the only thing I have found on transporting Perchloric acid deals with transporting it across a room in tiny quantities. So I am curious about the part of your comment that I have highlighted in blue. It sounds like a way to cushion the containers holding the acid. But it raises questions about how that is actually done, and the exact reason behind it. The shipment that ignited/detonated in the Bailey Yard was 50 drums holding 55 gallons each.
What else can you tell us about the shipping method you mentioned?
There's an article from the North Platte Bulletin newspaper that quotes one of the public officials saying the car went over the hump at 530am, the source of that info isn't given. One of the pictures, if captioned properly, shows that car and some other intermodal cars towards the west end of one of the sub yards within the complex. The flow of both humps goes west to east. It's not in one of the hump bowl tracks, so if humped it must have been moved.
Looking at a map of Bailey Yard, it's hard to place the car's location. I almost think it could be the west end of the eastbound receiving yard, but that doesn't look quite right either. The way the tracks are arranged, with car men's roads between groups of 2 tracks suggest one of the departure yards, but with those I think there should be more tracks in the background.
There are links available, but I'm posting this from my phone. The NP Bulletin article was from 9/18, there is Bailey Yard map available on the Trains website. That map is from about 2010.
Until a definite statement from a UP official or FRA report says the car went over the hump, I'll be skeptical. I wonder if it was in a block of IM in a manifest and the rest of the manifest cars where humped that morning.
The article, has I think others have too, state that the local responders had to talk to people in Cheyenne to find out the contents. This is perplexing. It seems like they were going through channels instead of talking to someone in NP.
I'm guessing the first report of the car involved being batteries was someone looking at a track list and noticing a container with lithium ion batteries and thinking, given experiences with those-an autorack of Teslas went up in flame at NP, thought those were involved. They may have seen the listing of the acid but like most of us, probably didn't have clue towards it's volatility.
Given it's bad reaction with seemingly almost everything, it's surprising there isn't more incidents. Just using it in a manufacturing process, let alone transport would seem problematic.
Jeff
EuclidHowever, the point you obviously intend to make by the use of the word “secondary” is the part of the definition meaning “less important than.” You appear to be making that point simply to downplay the disaster.
Don't humor yourself. That is NOT what I meant.
I'd explain it, but you probably wouldn't get it.
I'll probably get dinged for that, but it had to be said.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Euclid Axles will always break or burn off, but if a lot of hazmat explodes and burns as a result, I would not dismiss that as “secondary” just because it was caused by a broken axle, which came first. As devastating as a hazmat incident is, it's still secondary to whatever caused the accident in the first place. The primary cause of the incident is the mechanical failure, without which the hazmat incident would not have occurred. I would opine the primary concern of the investigators at East Palestine was not the hazmat - it was the burned axle and the lack of detection and action that resulted in the incident.
Euclid Axles will always break or burn off, but if a lot of hazmat explodes and burns as a result, I would not dismiss that as “secondary” just because it was caused by a broken axle, which came first.
As devastating as a hazmat incident is, it's still secondary to whatever caused the accident in the first place. The primary cause of the incident is the mechanical failure, without which the hazmat incident would not have occurred.
I would opine the primary concern of the investigators at East Palestine was not the hazmat - it was the burned axle and the lack of detection and action that resulted in the incident.
CSSHEGEWISCH NTSB investigates a lot more than railroad accidents, aviation issues take up much of their time and manpower.
The kind of investigating that the NTSB does roughly (ahem) falls in the tracks of what the Civil Aeronautics Board was doing for airliner accidents. The ICC did investigate RR accidents but not to the level of detail that the CAB did with fatal airliner accidents, e.g. re-assembling the airframe from bits and pieces of debris.
I think the investigation will focus on the following factors:
1. How was the commodity packed?
2. How was the commodity secured in the container by the shipper knowing how dangerous it is?
3. Which UP employee authorized the car to be sent over the hump and why did he do so when the container was marked DO NOT HUMP?
4. Why did'nt the hump yard master prevent the car from going over the hump?
EuclidAxles will always break or burn off, but if a lot of hazmat explodes and burns as a result, I would not dismiss that as “secondary” just because it was caused by a broken axle, which came first.
tree68 Euclid I think that is correct. Somehow the process of shipping has to be made safer in order to handle this material. That may true with other types of hazmat as well. The fact there there hasn't been a plethora of similar incidents involving this chemical speaks to said chemical having been shipped before with no problems. Assuming that reports of the car being humped are correct, this seems to be the smoking gun. If cars/containers carrying it have been humped without incident in the past, it would seem that the railroads handling it have been lucky so far. This time caught up with them. OTOH, if the railroads normally take "Do Not Hump" at face value and don't hump the cars, it would seem that they've been handling it pretty safely in the past. No need for knee jerk reactions. The railroads handle thousands of movements of hazmat daily, with danged few incidents. In fact, incidents such as this one are quite rare. Most of the hazmat incidents we hear of are secondary to some other issue - like the axle at East Palestine.
Euclid I think that is correct. Somehow the process of shipping has to be made safer in order to handle this material. That may true with other types of hazmat as well.
The fact there there hasn't been a plethora of similar incidents involving this chemical speaks to said chemical having been shipped before with no problems.
Assuming that reports of the car being humped are correct, this seems to be the smoking gun.
If cars/containers carrying it have been humped without incident in the past, it would seem that the railroads handling it have been lucky so far. This time caught up with them.
OTOH, if the railroads normally take "Do Not Hump" at face value and don't hump the cars, it would seem that they've been handling it pretty safely in the past.
No need for knee jerk reactions.
The railroads handle thousands of movements of hazmat daily, with danged few incidents. In fact, incidents such as this one are quite rare. Most of the hazmat incidents we hear of are secondary to some other issue - like the axle at East Palestine.
caldreamer BALTACD: What about the NTSB? They are the premire investigators when it comes to accidents. They will find the cause no matter how long it takes.
BALTACD:
What about the NTSB? They are the premire investigators when it comes to accidents. They will find the cause no matter how long it takes.
caldreamerBALTACD: What about the NTSB? They are the premire investigators when it comes to accidents. They will find the cause no matter how long it takes.
Without 'blood' the NTSB rarely gets involved.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
In as much as the results of this incident didn't 'bleed' and cause loss of life, I doubt we will EVER learn the particulars of the indicent.
When it comes to Humping, the 'Do Not Hump' needs to be on more than placards on the car. The DNH 'restriction' also needs to be on the shipping papers and also carried into the Carrier's 'Car & Train Data System'.
I presume UP is like the other Class 1's and the switch lists are computer prepared using data from the Car & Train Data System. If the DNH restriction doesn't make it to the switch list the Hump Yardmaster is working from, the car WILL NOT be given special handling.
EuclidI think that is correct. Somehow the process of shipping has to be made safer in order to handle this material. That may true with other types of hazmat as well.
tree68 Euclid The only way to be sufficiently cautious would be to keep a safe distance from the load to avoid death or injury from a spontaneous explosion of the Perchloric acid. Such a distance might be a minimum of 1,000 feet. Which means the car can't be coupled up to operate in a train, have a hand brake set, be inspected, or any of the other actions that require close proximity to the car.
Euclid The only way to be sufficiently cautious would be to keep a safe distance from the load to avoid death or injury from a spontaneous explosion of the Perchloric acid. Such a distance might be a minimum of 1,000 feet.
Which means the car can't be coupled up to operate in a train, have a hand brake set, be inspected, or any of the other actions that require close proximity to the car.
I think that is correct. Somehow the process of shipping has to be made safer in order to handle this material. That may true with other types of hazmat as well.
The one linked article that i read had a public official saying the car went over the hump with no citation of where that information came from. The same official later said some of his constituents who work at the yard said that company emergency response protocols weren't followed exactly as set forth. I wonder if that's the same source for him saying the car had been humped.
I was always under the impression that any loaded intermodal cars, container or trailer, usually weren't sent over the hump. Let alone one marked do not hump. There are bypass tracks for cars that can't go over the hump.
Not saying it couldn't or didn't happen but humping a prohibited car, even if it hadn't resulted in an explosion and fire, is a good way to get disciplined or fired.
Between the FRA inspectors finding problems at Bailey and now this, it appears that UP is in the hot seat and BNSF and NS have been forgotten.
EuclidHowever beyond that information, I have seen no reason to conclude that the humping contributed to the explosion and fire.
If the normal impacts of humping a car caused damage within the box, well, there you go.
That damage may have caused a leakage that took several hours to manifest itself.
We've established that contact between the chemical and things like wood can cause a reaction.
If this is a regularly shipped item, lack of previous incidents (none have been mentioned that I know of) would tend to suggest that it was the humping of the car that contributed to the issue.
This could come down partly to an insufficiently secured load.
BaltACD The car involved - MAY - have gone over the Hump. Two questions, did it roll to rest by coupling to cars already in the track? Were subsequent cars switched into the track of the subject car and ended up coupling with it? Humping a car and having it roll to a stop on a 'clear' track would not generate sufficient forces to upset a properly secured lading.
The car involved - MAY - have gone over the Hump. Two questions, did it roll to rest by coupling to cars already in the track? Were subsequent cars switched into the track of the subject car and ended up coupling with it?
Humping a car and having it roll to a stop on a 'clear' track would not generate sufficient forces to upset a properly secured lading.
EuclidThe only way to be sufficiently cautious would be to keep a safe distance from the load to avoid death or injury from a spontaneous explosion of the Perchloric acid. Such a distance might be a minimum of 1,000 feet.
I think this took pretty much everyone by surprise. You can't predict what you don't know about.
tree68 caldreamer Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsequent explosion. According to what I've read, the car hadn't moved in several hours. I would suppose there is the possibility of a transferred shock, ie another car or cars impacting the string of cars within which the subject car was located.
caldreamer Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsequent explosion.
Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsequent explosion.
According to what I've read, the car hadn't moved in several hours.
I would suppose there is the possibility of a transferred shock, ie another car or cars impacting the string of cars within which the subject car was located.
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