caldreamer...perchloric acid concentrated up to 72 percent has to be placarded. That means the the container would have to have 2 placards, one poison (6.1) and one for corrosive (8).
That certainly applies to the drums the acid was reportedly being shipped in. Does it apply to the shipping container, regardless of volume?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
YES, UP would know the contents of the container. The shipping container would have the placards on the sides. If they did not the UP should not have accepted the container. As stated in an earlier post, the waybills which contain the contents of each shipment are sent to the railroad electonically.
caldreamer YES, UP would know the contents of the container. The shipping container would have the placards on the sides. If they did not the UP should not have accepted the container. As stated in an earlier post, the waybills which contain the contents of each shipment are sent to the railroad electronically.
YES, UP would know the contents of the container. The shipping container would have the placards on the sides. If they did not the UP should not have accepted the container. As stated in an earlier post, the waybills which contain the contents of each shipment are sent to the railroad electronically.
I ask because of this:
DOT Chart 15 When the aggregate gross weight of all hazardous materials in non-bulk packages covered in Table 2 is less than 454 kg (1,001 lbs), no placard is required on a transport vehicle or freight container when transported by highway or rail [§172.504(c)].
When the aggregate gross weight of all hazardous materials in non-bulk packages covered in Table 2 is less than 454 kg (1,001 lbs), no placard is required on a transport vehicle or freight container when transported by highway or rail [§172.504(c)].
So if the container had a mixed cargo of material with the hazmat making up less than a 1000 pound lot, no placard would be required on the container. Conversely, if the container was placarded, it would tend to indicate that there was more than 1000 pounds of the material in the container.
tree68 Euclid And I wonder if Perchloric acid is routinely shipped this way, or if this may have been the first time. I would opine that this was hardly the first time. The SDS I found emphasized keeping it away from steel, etc, meaning the drums were likely lined with a corrosion resistant substance. My impression is that something failed, such as one of the drums or the corrosion protective lining therein.
Euclid And I wonder if Perchloric acid is routinely shipped this way, or if this may have been the first time.
I would opine that this was hardly the first time. The SDS I found emphasized keeping it away from steel, etc, meaning the drums were likely lined with a corrosion resistant substance.
My impression is that something failed, such as one of the drums or the corrosion protective lining therein.
I would expect that if a steel (or other metal) drum were to be used at all, it would be suitably lined.
Given that it has been reported that the acid was in drums, there aren't a lot of choices. Plastic would seem to be the most likely answer. I don't think I've ever seen a glass 55 gallon drum.
Almost all of the references I found in searching for storing it indicate the need for secondary containment. They also indicate that even cardboard can be an issue...
We do not know exactly the weight of the perchloric acid without the shipping documents. All is speculation at this point. I will be looking for the NTSB investiation report to find out exactly what happened. Why don't we wait until the factual report comes out?
caldreamerWhy don't we wait until the factual report comes out?
What fun is that?
Besides, it's more like lining up questions we'd like answers to.
From where to where may tell us something?
Euclid More news is coming out about the Bailey Yard explosion and fire. A developing theory of cause points to rough handling of the railcar. The car was subject to DO NOT HUMP, but it was humped anyway. There were 50 drums of the Perchloric acid filled with 55 gallons each. Reportedly, the drums were standing on wooden pallets and may have leaked due to the hump impact. Perchloric acid can explode or catch fire if it comes in contact with wood. Here is a link to the news story: Lincoln County Board says answers needed from U.P. on Bailey Yard explosion and fire https://nptelegraph.com/news/local/business/union-pacific-bailey-yard-north-platte/article_2d9b6d54-566b-11ee-980b-cf9ba1b73dea.html
The standard canned response here will be to attack the media or local government folks.
Just using the weight of water as a guideline (I have no idea what perchloric acid weighs - it's probably more than water) the volume of the acid was well over the 1000 pound placarding requirement (22,000 lbs, based on water).
That a drum lid was found a distance from the site certainly indicates that the shipping container failed. Several explosions were noted, per the report, so no surprise. The stuff clearly packs a kick.
The media report was pretty straightforward - I didn't detect any sensationalism, and aside from a possible delay in reporting the contents by UP, it doesn't sound like local government has any issues.
Given reports of explosions and aerial images showing the container pretty messed up, it's not surprising that the placards may have been destroyed or otherwise made illegible.
Post from Train Board
Hytec TrainBoard.com I dealt with perchloric acid in school chem lab, nasty stuff. Stronger than Sulfuric or Hydrochloric acids. Here's a brief description.Perchloric acid is a strong acid used for complete digestions of organic material. It is normally supplied in bottles of up to one gallon in capacity at 70-72% strength. In many respects, its hazards are similar to those of nitric acid, as both are strong oxidants.It was carried in the container in glass bottles. It can be carried only in glass. There may have been combustible material also in the container. Possibly the container was dropped or jarred drastically which broke some of the acid bottles. All that had to happen was for the acid to find a combustible: cardboard, wooden crate, pallet, dirt residue on the container floor. Bingo, instant fire of near explosive proportions. Heat then would have caused a chain reaction.
I dealt with perchloric acid in school chem lab, nasty stuff. Stronger than Sulfuric or Hydrochloric acids. Here's a brief description.Perchloric acid is a strong acid used for complete digestions of organic material. It is normally supplied in bottles of up to one gallon in capacity at 70-72% strength. In many respects, its hazards are similar to those of nitric acid, as both are strong oxidants.It was carried in the container in glass bottles. It can be carried only in glass. There may have been combustible material also in the container. Possibly the container was dropped or jarred drastically which broke some of the acid bottles. All that had to happen was for the acid to find a combustible: cardboard, wooden crate, pallet, dirt residue on the container floor. Bingo, instant fire of near explosive proportions. Heat then would have caused a chain reaction.
YMMV
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tree68 Just using the weight of water as a guideline (I have no idea what perchloric acid weighs - it's probably more than water) the volume of the acid was well over the 1000 pound placarding requirement (22,000 lbs, based on water). That a drum lid was found a distance from the site certainly indicates that the shipping container failed. Several explosions were noted, per the report, so no surprise. The stuff clearly packs a kick. The media report was pretty straightforward - I didn't detect any sensationalism, and aside from a possible delay in reporting the contents by UP, it doesn't sound like local government has any issues. Given reports of explosions and aerial images showing the container pretty messed up, it's not surprising that the placards may have been destroyed or otherwise made illegible.
To me, the lid found a distance from the container indicates that the lid separated from a drum due to the explosion. This indicates that the explosion happened before the lid separated, and therefore the failure of the shipping container was not due the lid separating from the drum (if by “shipping container” you are referring to a drum).
I have no conclusive opinion as to the cause of the explosion and fire, but mishandling the product seems most likely. The fact that the load was humped while it was ordered Do Not Hump is a red flag, but there is no evidence that the humping impact was high enough to cause a breach of drums. Usually such drums have to pass a drop test, which is likely to be much more disruptive than even an exceptionally high hump coupling impact.
Another possible explanation for the incident is a spill during the filling of the drums. The news article cites the possibility of spilling the Perchloric acid onto the wood shipping pallet under the drum where it then soaked into the wood and dried. If this had occurred during the filling of the drums, prior to shipping, it would be a likely cause of the subsequent fire and explosion.
The use of pallets made of wood seems unlikely due to the absorbency of wood. But even if the pallets were made of non-absorbent plastic, the same fire-explosion risk due to spilled residue on the surface of the pallet would have existed.
EuclidTo me, the lid found a distance from the container indicates that the lid separated from a drum due to the explosion. This indicates that the explosion happened before the lid separated, and therefore the failure of the shipping container was not due the lid separating from the drum (if by “shipping container” you are referring to a drum).
By shipping container, I mean the IM box. There were reports of several explosions. One or more likely caused failure of the IM box, with a subsequent explosion sending the lid flying.
If the IM box had not failed, the lid would not have been found a distance from the site. Aerial images showed the IM box failed.
blue streak 1 How did we miss this? Almost 8 hours without any posting Explosion at world's largest railyard in Nebraska prompts evacuations because of heavy toxic smoke (msn.com)
How did we miss this? Almost 8 hours without any posting
Explosion at world's largest railyard in Nebraska prompts evacuations because of heavy toxic smoke (msn.com)
Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsuquent explosion.
caldreamer Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsequent explosion.
Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsequent explosion.
According to what I've read, the car hadn't moved in several hours.
I would suppose there is the possibility of a transferred shock, ie another car or cars impacting the string of cars within which the subject car was located.
So was the stuff in 55 gallon drums, or was it in glass bottles? Or maybe the glass bottles were inside the drums?????
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tree68 caldreamer Another possiblility is that if one or more of the drums leaked not only on to the pallets, but also on to the steel container floor reacting with steel becoming pechlorates. If it did then the rough handling of humping could have created the right conditions for a fire and the subsequent explosion. According to what I've read, the car hadn't moved in several hours. I would suppose there is the possibility of a transferred shock, ie another car or cars impacting the string of cars within which the subject car was located.
The car involved - MAY - have gone over the Hump. Two questions, did it roll to rest by coupling to cars already in the track? Were subsequent cars switched into the track of the subject car and ended up coupling with it?
Humping a car and having it roll to a stop on a 'clear' track would not generate sufficient forces to upset a properly secured lading.
EuclidThe only way to be sufficiently cautious would be to keep a safe distance from the load to avoid death or injury from a spontaneous explosion of the Perchloric acid. Such a distance might be a minimum of 1,000 feet.
Which means the car can't be coupled up to operate in a train, have a hand brake set, be inspected, or any of the other actions that require close proximity to the car.
I think this took pretty much everyone by surprise. You can't predict what you don't know about.
BaltACD The car involved - MAY - have gone over the Hump. Two questions, did it roll to rest by coupling to cars already in the track? Were subsequent cars switched into the track of the subject car and ended up coupling with it? Humping a car and having it roll to a stop on a 'clear' track would not generate sufficient forces to upset a properly secured lading.
EuclidHowever beyond that information, I have seen no reason to conclude that the humping contributed to the explosion and fire.
If the normal impacts of humping a car caused damage within the box, well, there you go.
That damage may have caused a leakage that took several hours to manifest itself.
We've established that contact between the chemical and things like wood can cause a reaction.
If this is a regularly shipped item, lack of previous incidents (none have been mentioned that I know of) would tend to suggest that it was the humping of the car that contributed to the issue.
This could come down partly to an insufficiently secured load.
Between the FRA inspectors finding problems at Bailey and now this, it appears that UP is in the hot seat and BNSF and NS have been forgotten.
The one linked article that i read had a public official saying the car went over the hump with no citation of where that information came from. The same official later said some of his constituents who work at the yard said that company emergency response protocols weren't followed exactly as set forth. I wonder if that's the same source for him saying the car had been humped.
I was always under the impression that any loaded intermodal cars, container or trailer, usually weren't sent over the hump. Let alone one marked do not hump. There are bypass tracks for cars that can't go over the hump.
Not saying it couldn't or didn't happen but humping a prohibited car, even if it hadn't resulted in an explosion and fire, is a good way to get disciplined or fired.
Jeff
tree68 Euclid The only way to be sufficiently cautious would be to keep a safe distance from the load to avoid death or injury from a spontaneous explosion of the Perchloric acid. Such a distance might be a minimum of 1,000 feet. Which means the car can't be coupled up to operate in a train, have a hand brake set, be inspected, or any of the other actions that require close proximity to the car.
Euclid The only way to be sufficiently cautious would be to keep a safe distance from the load to avoid death or injury from a spontaneous explosion of the Perchloric acid. Such a distance might be a minimum of 1,000 feet.
I think that is correct. Somehow the process of shipping has to be made safer in order to handle this material. That may true with other types of hazmat as well.
EuclidI think that is correct. Somehow the process of shipping has to be made safer in order to handle this material. That may true with other types of hazmat as well.
The fact there there hasn't been a plethora of similar incidents involving this chemical speaks to said chemical having been shipped before with no problems.
Assuming that reports of the car being humped are correct, this seems to be the smoking gun.
If cars/containers carrying it have been humped without incident in the past, it would seem that the railroads handling it have been lucky so far. This time caught up with them.
OTOH, if the railroads normally take "Do Not Hump" at face value and don't hump the cars, it would seem that they've been handling it pretty safely in the past.
No need for knee jerk reactions.
The railroads handle thousands of movements of hazmat daily, with danged few incidents. In fact, incidents such as this one are quite rare. Most of the hazmat incidents we hear of are secondary to some other issue - like the axle at East Palestine.
tree68 Euclid I think that is correct. Somehow the process of shipping has to be made safer in order to handle this material. That may true with other types of hazmat as well. The fact there there hasn't been a plethora of similar incidents involving this chemical speaks to said chemical having been shipped before with no problems. Assuming that reports of the car being humped are correct, this seems to be the smoking gun. If cars/containers carrying it have been humped without incident in the past, it would seem that the railroads handling it have been lucky so far. This time caught up with them. OTOH, if the railroads normally take "Do Not Hump" at face value and don't hump the cars, it would seem that they've been handling it pretty safely in the past. No need for knee jerk reactions. The railroads handle thousands of movements of hazmat daily, with danged few incidents. In fact, incidents such as this one are quite rare. Most of the hazmat incidents we hear of are secondary to some other issue - like the axle at East Palestine.
Euclid I think that is correct. Somehow the process of shipping has to be made safer in order to handle this material. That may true with other types of hazmat as well.
When it comes to Humping, the 'Do Not Hump' needs to be on more than placards on the car. The DNH 'restriction' also needs to be on the shipping papers and also carried into the Carrier's 'Car & Train Data System'.
I presume UP is like the other Class 1's and the switch lists are computer prepared using data from the Car & Train Data System. If the DNH restriction doesn't make it to the switch list the Hump Yardmaster is working from, the car WILL NOT be given special handling.
In as much as the results of this incident didn't 'bleed' and cause loss of life, I doubt we will EVER learn the particulars of the indicent.
BALTACD:
What about the NTSB? They are the premire investigators when it comes to accidents. They will find the cause no matter how long it takes.
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