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UP Bailey yard fire and explosion

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UP Bailey yard fire and explosion
Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, September 14, 2023 7:52 PM
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, September 14, 2023 9:03 PM
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Posted by PennsyBoomer on Thursday, September 14, 2023 9:20 PM

Just what is needed, another high viz explosion. Perchloric acid is evidently susceptible to high heat, although weather in NPLT has been generally mild September temperatures of late. So I guess containers as well as tank cars represent a problem with their commodities, although will be interesting to hear what triggered this event.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, September 14, 2023 9:42 PM

Short of rough handling, sounds like this one was completely out of the control of the railroad.  They don't put the contents in the containers.

Consider if it had happened near the rear of a high-priority IM train, running at 60+ MPH.  The swath of exposure would be huge.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 14, 2023 10:54 PM

Standing car exploding - Need big 'splainin' Lucy!

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, September 15, 2023 1:42 AM

Is this how it played out?  Standing cut of well cars at west end of yard.  Container somehow catches fire then explodes at around 1200 CDT. Witnessed by RR and visitors in tower. Catches fire to other equipment.  Fire dept called and possible hazardous smoke cause evacuation.  Fire out about 1700 CDT.  Evacuation cancelled.  

Was container on top or bottom?  How and what other equipment affected?.  When was cut last moved?

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Posted by caldreamer on Friday, September 15, 2023 6:58 AM

According to the various reports other cars which were not defined caught fire amd the car was sitting in its last position for a couple of hours.

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, September 15, 2023 7:47 AM
 
 
I wonder if anybody accidentally inhaled any of the Perchloric acid after the winds carried it outside of the rail yard.  Reportedly, the winds carried the chemical westward from the west end of the yard.  It looks like the worst direction for public exposure would have been eastward.  I wonder what sort of container/packaging the Perchloric acid was being shipped in.  Is the chemical pre-packaged by the manufacturer and then packed into a typical shipping container?
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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, September 15, 2023 10:03 AM

Since many containers are shipped under a "Freight All Kinds" rate, it would be likely that the shipper packaged the material at his plant and filled the container with the already packaged material.  Except for placarding and hazmat instructions, the various roads involved in the move would not know the contents.

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Posted by caldreamer on Friday, September 15, 2023 10:46 AM

When a conductor arrives at a yard and the train is terminating, he/she is required to turn over all of his paperwork to the yardmaster which includes the waybills showing the contents of each car and or container.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 15, 2023 10:57 AM

caldreamer
When a conductor arrives at a yard and the train is terminating, he/she is required to turn over all of his paperwork to the yardmaster which includes the waybills showing the contents of each car and or container.

The shipping papers for intermodal shipments, for the most part DO NOT SPECIFY the actual material being shipped.  Freight All Kinds - is not a specific description of the contents of intermodal shipments.

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Posted by dehusman on Friday, September 15, 2023 10:58 AM

caldreamer

When a conductor arrives at a yard and the train is terminating, he/she is required to turn over all of his paperwork to the yardmaster which includes the waybills showing the contents of each car and or container. 

The UP hasn't used paper waybills since the late 1980's and the yard has all the "paperwork" for the train when it's still hundreds of miles away.  

Computers.

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, September 15, 2023 12:57 PM

dehusman

 

 
caldreamer

When a conductor arrives at a yard and the train is terminating, he/she is required to turn over all of his paperwork to the yardmaster which includes the waybills showing the contents of each car and or container. 

 

 

The UP hasn't used paper waybills since the late 1980's and the yard has all the "paperwork" for the train when it's still hundreds of miles away.  

Computers.

 

So, does the computer information about the train include the specific information to identify chemicals and their packaging, if any are being shipped on the train?

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, September 15, 2023 1:05 PM

Euclid
So, does the computer information about the train include the specific information to identify chemicals and their packaging, if any are being shipped on the train?

Below a certain weight/volume, there is no requirement for placarding.  As Balt points out, "freight all kinds" covers a lot of ground.

"Brown" has more hazmat onboard than you might think.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 15, 2023 2:23 PM

tree68
 
Euclid
So, does the computer information about the train include the specific information to identify chemicals and their packaging, if any are being shipped on the train? 

Below a certain weight/volume, there is no requirement for placarding.  As Balt points out, "freight all kinds" covers a lot of ground.

"Brown" has more hazmat onboard than you might think.

CSX has rules in place to prevent certain kinds of Inhalation Hazardous Materials in Reportable Quantities from being transported through Washington DC.  Almost daily Conductors of the primary Northbound UPS train, upon going on duty at Richmond would call and report his train documentation has car(s) indicating that a commodity on the car is restricted through DC.  The procedure in place was to get ahold of the Intermodal Dept. who would research the in depth billing of the offending car(s).  In every case I was involved with, the offending commodity would end up being a couple of cases of the restricted commodity within a UPS trailer, thus falling far below the threshold of the requirement applying to Reportable Quantities of the commidity.  The Conductor would be instructed to proceed with his train.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, September 15, 2023 4:27 PM

For now, UP crews carry paper copies of the train list. For mixed load containers the commodity is listed as "mixfrt." If the quantity requires placarding. The train list will have all the hazmat info listed. If the container has multiple types of hazmat, all will be listed.

If the car had not been placed in a train, then in the computer it would be in a track list inventory. Whether someone in the field had a paper copy at the time it happened would depend on if the car was listed to be switched by a yard job. Being in the yard it wouldn't take very long to get complete info on the car. Unless the computers were down.

Jeff 

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, September 15, 2023 5:51 PM

BaltACD

 

 
caldreamer
When a conductor arrives at a yard and the train is terminating, he/she is required to turn over all of his paperwork to the yardmaster which includes the waybills showing the contents of each car and or container.

 

The shipping papers for intermodal shipments, for the most part DO NOT SPECIFY the actual material being shipped.  Freight All Kinds - is not a specific description of the contents of intermodal shipments.

 

Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds?  Or is this just an assumption?  It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper. 

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, September 15, 2023 6:18 PM

Euclid
Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds?  Or is this just an assumption?  It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper. 

I think we're just covering possible bases, particularly if the container was not placarded.  At this point, we don't that that it wasn't.

Given that the material was apparently identified early on, one might be safe in assuming that it was in a placarded container or that the contents were otherwise identified.  Actually, CHEMTREC may have had that information based on the ID of the container.

Per a news report, the perchloric acid was in 55 gallon drums.  That might tend to indicate that the container in question was fully loaded with them.

The container on top of the one in question contained memory foam - which is going to make for a pretty smoky fire.

The MSDS (SDS) for perchloric acid mentions that it may react with metal.  (Opinion Alert) Perhaps one of the containers failed (however slightly) and the resultant corrosion caused a larger release.

(Opinion Alert)  If this was a mixed shipment, there could have been a reaction with some other substance.

We'll have to wait until more information is forthcoming, if it's made public.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Euclid on Friday, September 15, 2023 7:03 PM

tree68

 

 
Euclid
Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds?  Or is this just an assumption?  It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper. 

 

I think we're just covering possible bases, particularly if the container was not placarded.  At this point, we don't that that it wasn't.

Given that the material was apparently identified early on, one might be safe in assuming that it was in a placarded container or that the contents were otherwise identified.  Actually, CHEMTREC may have had that information based on the ID of the container.

Per a news report, the perchloric acid was in 55 gallon drums.  That might tend to indicate that the container in question was fully loaded with them.

The container on top of the one in question contained memory foam - which is going to make for a pretty smoky fire.

The MSDS (SDS) for perchloric acid mentions that it may react with metal.  (Opinion Alert) Perhaps one of the containers failed (however slightly) and the resultant corrosion caused a larger release.

(Opinion Alert)  If this was a mixed shipment, there could have been a reaction with some other substance.

We'll have to wait until more information is forthcoming, if it's made public.

 

Yes, it will be interesting to learn what caused this.  I read some information about Perchloric acid and it sounds quite dangerous with its vapors being able to rapidly erode eyes and skin.  One source said that in process application, it has been known to condense on the inside of ductwork and form fine, dry crystals that are highly explosive.  

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, September 15, 2023 7:16 PM

Perchloric acid is a strong peroxide former -- those crystals are peroxides, and shock-sensitive, and explosive.

For a discussion in general:

https://safety.fsu.edu/safety_manual/supporting_docs/Peroxides%20in%20depth%20discussion.pdf

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, September 15, 2023 7:46 PM

Lot of explaiing.  My Out of date Haz Mat book not available.  Was shipper's book current? Were all persons that hamdled this Haz Mat current and not lacking recurrent training? Shipper becomes the target. Did shipper have license to send this product and did shipper have any restrictions?

This product appears to be a Haz Mat explosive.If so probably be plackard one of the 3 explosive number 1s?  What was the total weight of the whole product shipment?.  Was it shipped in one container or many required to not exeed a certain weight?  Any separation requirements?

Was or Did driver examine load before it was sealed?  Any possible load shifts along the way truck or railcar?

Was product free of contaminants to restrict combusstion? 

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, September 15, 2023 10:24 PM

UN1873

The Emergency Response Guide can be found here:

  https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/2020-08/ERG2020-WEB.pdf

One SDS I found has the NFPA 704 as Health: 3, Flammability: 0, Instability: 3, with an oxidizer modifier.

They expand on that with: 

Reactive Hazard - Yes

Stability - Oxidizer: Contact with combustible/organic material may cause fire.

Conditions to Avoid - Incompatible products. Excess heat. Combustible material.

Incompatible Materials - Strong oxidizing agents, Finely powdered metals, Organic materials, Amines, Alcohols, Strong reducing agents, Combustible material

So, by itself, it's not a fire hazard.  But if you combine it with certain other things, watch out.

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Posted by PNWRMNM on Saturday, September 16, 2023 5:06 AM

Euclid
The shipping papers for intermodal shipments, for the most part DO NOT SPECIFY the actual material being shipped.  Freight All Kinds - is not a specific description of the contents of intermodal shipments.   Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds?  Or is this just an assumption?  It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper. 

FAK is a rate making description ONLY.

With very few exceptions shippers must properly describe any and all hazardous materials they offer for transportation. Since UP was able to identify the material quickly, I conclude that the material was properly described as required.

Mac McCulloch

Former Bureau of Explosives Inspector

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, September 16, 2023 7:59 AM

PNWRMNM

 

 
Euclid
The shipping papers for intermodal shipments, for the most part DO NOT SPECIFY the actual material being shipped.  Freight All Kinds - is not a specific description of the contents of intermodal shipments.   Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds?  Or is this just an assumption?  It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper. 

 

FAK is a rate making description ONLY.

With very few exceptions shippers must properly describe any and all hazardous materials they offer for transportation. Since UP was able to identify the material quickly, I conclude that the material was properly described as required.

Mac McCulloch

Former Bureau of Explosives Inspector

 

=================================
 
Euclid
The shipping papers for intermodal shipments, for the most part DO NOT SPECIFY the actual material being shipped.  Freight All Kinds - is not a specific description of the contents of intermodal shipments.   Do we know for sure that this Perchloric acid was being handled as Freight of all Kinds?  Or is this just an assumption?  It seems a bit odd that dangerous hazmat could be shipped with the packaging and precautions left to the discretion of the shipper. 
 
 
 
FAK is a rate making description ONLY.
With very few exceptions shippers must properly describe any and all hazardous materials they offer for transportation. Since UP was able to identify the material quickly, I conclude that the material was properly described as required.
Mac McCulloch
Former Bureau of Explosives Inspector
=================================
 
 
 
 
Mac,
Thanks for your clarification, but at the top of your post, the quote that you attribute to me (to which I have added blue and red designation in a copy immediately above) mistakenly includes the comment by Balt (in blue).  What I said (in red) was asking for clarification from Balt (in blue).  
 
Balt introduced the topic of FAK, which sounded to me as though there would have been no way to know the Perchloric acid was being shipped; with the shipment details and packaging being entirely at the discretion of the shipper.  To me, especially with hazmat, this seemed unbelievable.  That is why I asked my question in red. 
 
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Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, September 16, 2023 2:03 PM

We seem to be talking about two types of paperwork. One is the waybill, the other is the train list. Paper waybills are no longer used. It's all in the computer. The train list is what the crews carry, or access on the railroad issued electronic device. (They want and think they can go paperless, but I think it's not practical for all items.) The train list, still called by some as the "wheel" or "wheel report," is generated by the computer using info from the waybills of the cars. I've looked up a waybill before. It has all the info the old paper ones do, but it doesn't look anything like the old paper ones.

Train lists only have so much room for listing the lading being carried. On a FAK type load, the container will only be listed as MIXFRT. If there is hazmat sufficient to require placards and shipping info, each piece of hazmat will have all the info, just as a tank car of hazmat would. If their are multiple classifications of hazmat in the same container, each would be listed separately and each have the hazmat shipping info.

In an ordinary container of mixed freight, no hazmat, the crew won't know the contents of said container, but the railroad does. The crew in this case doesn't need to know whether it's loaded with anything from soup to nuts. Only that it won't go "boom" if involved in a derailment. 

If the car, with the container, wasn't in a train or not yet scheduled to be moved by a yard engine, no one in the yard might have a list of any kind. The first person to see the smoke would immediately call the yardmaster or other authority and say there's a car on fire on track whatever. The closer the observer is the more details can be given. The yardmaster will then look up the tracks, maybe even adjacent tracks to be sure, looking for cars with nasty stuff in them. A yard is probably the best place for something like this to happen. It's the one location that complete info can be quickly accessed and proper authorities notified. 

Jeff 

 

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Posted by David1005 on Saturday, September 16, 2023 6:28 PM

What I recall from my railroad days is that the commodity in a freight car was identified because the rate depended on what was being shipped. In the case of a container, what is being shipped is the container, not it's content. So then identifying the content reverts back to the rules on shipping hazardous material.  Getting container content, even an accurate weight, was a problem when there was an issue. They started using scales built into the container lifting machines to get weights so they knew which container to put on top and to not overload the rail car.

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, September 17, 2023 12:13 PM

Here is a link that describes an accidental explosion of Perchloric acid:

https://www.jst.umn.edu/learning-experience-reports/past-lers/perchloric-acid-explosion

 

It has been reported that the Baily Yard fire involving Perchloric acid was preceded by an explosion.

Interestingly, the explosion occurred after the train had been stopped for some hours.  Among other precautions, this document states:  “Again NEVER heat perchloric acid even in diluted solutions”

I don’t know how much heat is too much, but I wonder about the interior of a metal shipping container standing still in the hot sun of a clear summer day.  I also wonder how much space there is for the Perchloric acid to expand as it warms up inside of the 55 gallon drums if they are sealed tight. 

And I wonder if Perchloric acid is routinely shipped this way, or if this may have been the first time. 

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, September 17, 2023 2:12 PM

Euclid
And I wonder if Perchloric acid is routinely shipped this way, or if this may have been the first time. 

I would opine that this was hardly the first time.  The SDS I found emphasized keeping it away from steel, etc, meaning the drums were likely lined with a corrosion resistant substance.

My impression is that something failed, such as one of the drums or the corrosion protective lining therein.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, September 17, 2023 3:12 PM

49usc172.102 (the hazardous materials table), perchloric acid concentrated up to 72 percent has to be placarded.  That means the the container would have to have 2 placards, one poison (6.1) and one for corrosive (8).  If perchloric acid comes in contact with any metal it can produce metalic pechlorates which can explode according to the SDS for perchloric acid. We do not know what material was used for these drums, so we are guessing.

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