There was a post that stated that hand signal might sometimes be preferred because they wouldn't cause a problem with another close crew (on the radio). Are all crews locked to one frequency or do they have a range of frequencies that they can use (a bit like the different channels on a CB radio)?
I believe that they are all on the same frequency on a yard or road channel. Consequently, anybody on the radio has to identify who they are and who they are calling.
Perry BabinThere was a post that stated that hand signal might sometimes be preferred because they wouldn't cause a problem with another close crew (on the radio). Are all crews locked to one frequency or do they have a range of frequencies that they can use (a bit like the different channels on a CB radio)?
In 'most' cases, there is a Road radio channel, there is a Dispatchers radio channel, there is a MofW radio channel and in the vicinity of 'signifcant' yards there is a Yard radio channel.
The Road, Dispatcher and MofW channels will exist for the entirety of the subdivision. At one time, CSX in Baltimore utilized four Yard channels, Bayview Yard, Locust Point Yard, Curtis Bay Yard and Mt.Clare Yard. With Yardmaster consolitation that has been reduced to two - Bayviw and Curtis Bay. There is only one channel per yard and all working yard crews will be using it, therefore, if the yard has multiple yard crews working care has to be taken to prevent one crew responding to another crews transmissions.
On line of road, radio transmitters are located about every 10 to 15 miles along a subdivision. When a train or someone else 'tones in' the Train Dispatcher the transmitter nearest to individual doing the toning will flash on the Train Dispatchers communications screen; in some cases two transmitter locations will flash.
In ALL radio communications the parties involved have to properly identify who they are to prevent 'mistaken' communications from being acted upon.
In the 1960's & 70's it was not uncommon for crews to us personal CB radios for end to end communications on trains, even though the use of them was no specifically 'legal' in accordance with the rules.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Good place to find the Frequencies that they are using.
https://www.radioreference.com/db/browse/
Perry Babin There was a post that stated that hand signal might sometimes be preferred because they wouldn't cause a problem with another close crew (on the radio). Are all crews locked to one frequency or do they have a range of frequencies that they can use (a bit like the different channels on a CB radio)?
We have a road frequency and a yard frequency, and switch at designated points (after a "job briefing"). Oftimes, especially when a train is headed out of the yard, they'll switch over to the road frequency so as not to bother the yard operations.
There are some 200 AAR "channels," half are the legacy channels currently most in use, the other half are the result of narrowbanding, with the new channels placed between the legacy channels. Each railroad is assigned however many frequencies/channels they need/want.
The frequencies are often referred to by their AAR designators. F'rinstance, the frequency once used by Conrail over most of their system, 160.800 MHz, is AAR channel 46. Thus you'll sometimes see a channel referred to as "4646," which means both transmit and receive are on channel 46 - 160.800 MHz.
Some locales may use a repeater (we do). The repeater extends the range of locomotives and handhelds, and often includes a phone patch the crews can use to contact the dispatcher (or order pizza, which no doubt happens). In that case, you'll see something like "1825", which indicates that the system uses one frequency for the repeater input, and another for the output (very often the road channel).
Locomotive radios are generally frequency agile - they can go to any AAR channel with just a few keystrokes. Handhelds are limited to what they are capable. A good many are limited to 16 frequencies, which must be preprogrammed "in the shop."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Perry Babin There was a post that stated that hand signal might sometimes be preferred because they wouldn't cause a problem with another close crew (on the radio). Are all crews locked to one frequency or do they have a range of frequencies that they can use (a bit like the different channels on a CB radio)? We have a road frequency and a yard frequency, and switch at designated points (after a "job briefing"). Oftimes, especially when a train is headed out of the yard, they'll switch over to the road frequency so as not to bother the yard operations. There are some 200 AAR "channels," half are the legacy channels currently most in use, the other half are the result of narrowbanding, with the new channels placed between the legacy channels. Each railroad is assigned however many frequencies/channels they need/want. The frequencies are often referred to by their AAR designators. F'rinstance, the frequency once used by Conrail over most of their system, 160.800 MHz, is AAR channel 46. Thus you'll sometimes see a channel referred to as "4646," which means both transmit and receive are on channel 46 - 160.800 MHz. Some locales may use a repeater (we do). The repeater extends the range of locomotives and handhelds, and often includes a phone patch the crews can use to contact the dispatcher (or order pizza, which no doubt happens). In that case, you'll see something like "1825", which indicates that the system uses one frequency for the repeater input, and another for the output (very often the road channel). Locomotive radios are generally frequency agile - they can go to any AAR channel with just a few keystrokes. Handhelds are limited to what they are capable. A good many are limited to 16 frequencies, which must be preprogrammed "in the shop."
Remember - all the allowed radio frequencies are used by ALL the railroads. In Baltimore for example, you have CSX, NS, Amtrak,Canton Railroad and Tradepoint Atlantic (operating former Patapsco & Back River territory at Sparrows Point) all needing unique frequency assignments so as not to conflict with each other. On top of that, radio frequencies area subject to 'skip' that are caused by exacting and uncontrollable atmospheric conditions, wherein transmissions originating hundreds of miles from an area CAN come in loud and strong.
In the Baltimore area, CSX has three Dispatching Desks that require THEIR OWN sets of radio channels - BC Desk handles the Capital, Metropolitan and Old Main Line subdivisions radiating West from the City. BD Desk handles the RF&P Subdivision from Washington DC on South. BE Desk handles the Baltimore Terminal and Philadelphia Subdivisions. I have no idea of what level of uniqueness NS and Amtrak require of their radio needs in and around Baltimore. Feature two or three channels will cover the Canton Railroad and Tradepoint Atlantic's individual needs.
BaltACDIn the Baltimore area,
Per RadioReference, CSX has 29 frequencies assigned in Maryland. NS has nine, Amtrak has 15.
Five frequencies are assigned to tourist railroads, and 12 to shortlines (Canton, Maryland Midland, Maryland & Delaware, Tradepoint).
There is some overlap. WM Scenic is listed under both tourist and shortline, and 160.800 is assigned to Amtrak, NS, and CSX.
https://www.radioreference.com/db/aid/2159
VHF will occasionally skip, but not as bad as HF. But propagation can still be an issue, sometimes resulting in signals fading off or carrying further than usual.
At least there is a cohesive band plan, and someone to manage it.
tree68 BaltACD In the Baltimore area, Per RadioReference, CSX has 29 frequencies assigned in Maryland. NS has nine, Amtrak has 15. ...
BaltACD In the Baltimore area,
...
I can only imagine radio frequency assignments around Chicago.
In our Council Bluffs yard complex, we have multiple channels that are in use.
There's the main road channel, 042-042. There is a catch-all yard channel 038-038, that main line trains passing through yard limits (about 2-1/2 miles long) must change to. This channel is usually used by trains working in the yard and to get instructions from the yard master. Road trains just passing through need to inquire about employee initiated track breach protection that might be in effect.
Car men are on 052-052, the diesel ramp is on 032-032. The YOS (yard office supervisor, the yard van dispatcher) is on 044-044.
The yard job at the North (old CNW) yard, when there is one working, is 062-062. At the South (original UP) yards, the West lead job is on 016-016, the South lead is on 096-096. Local industrial jobs there also have there own channel, which I don't know because I don't need to talk to them.
Jeff
BaltACDI can only imagine radio frequency assignments around Chicago.
There are a few...
https://www.radioreference.com/db/aid/4563
I found this youtube site that has a lot of training videos, among other promotional films, on it.
Railroaded Films - YouTube
This one in particular deals with signals of all types, hand and other types, too.
Railroad Training Video "Signals and Their Use" Union Pacific - YouTube
It should be noted that the videos may contain rules that may have changed since the videos were first made.
jeffhergert would one extra long blast be, call for a signal?
JEFF: if you can see the conductor and he is seemingly talking on the radio but you cannot get his instructions......i.e. in the old daze, how would you signal the conductor/brakeman you need instructions. Some signal via the horn of the locomotive? endmrw0817231412
The whistle/horn signal to call for a signal is 4 shorts. It's still in the rule book, I double checked because I wasn't sure if it had been removed. Even so, I imagine most would upon hearing the signal think, "What's that idiot blowing the horn for?"
I'd probably say over the radio that if you were talking to me, I can't hear you. Hoping that the problem is with the microphone, it has happened, rather than a full radio failure. If no response, I'd wait until I received a hand signal or the conductor walked over to the engine to find out what was wrong.
jeffhergertI'd probably say over the radio that if you were talking to me, I can't hear you. Hoping that the problem is with the microphone, it has happened, rather than a full radio failure. If no response, I'd wait until I received a hand signal or the conductor walked over to the engine to find out what was wrong.
Many of our volunteers purchase their own radios. I generally keep track of them and provide programming information as requested. One volunteer recently got a radio and programmed it with the information I provided. Unfortunately, I failed to notice that said information included a CTCSS tone on the receive side (also known as PL or CG), meaning that any radio not programmed with said tone on the transmit side (which commonly is the case), wouldn't get through to him. We figured it out and he's up and running now.
Whistle signals reminds me of a story is an old issue of Trains (IIRC). Seems the hogger had disregarded Rule G and was in no shape to run. The fireman took over the seat. Because they had stopped for some reason, there were flagmen out. This being pre-radio (steam as I recall), it was whistle signals to call the flagmen in.
The fireman did some toots, not remembering exactly what the signal should be, at which point the hogger roused from his stupor long enough to say "it's six for east" or something to that effect.
He may have been highly intoxicated, but he knew his rules (except Rule G...).
tree68 Whistle signals reminds me of a story is an old issue of Trains (IIRC). Seems the hogger had disregarded Rule G and was in no shape to run. The fireman took over the seat. Because they had stopped for some reason, there were flagmen out. This being pre-radio (steam as I recall), it was whistle signals to call the flagmen in. The fireman did some toots, not remembering exactly what the signal should be, at which point the hogger roused from his stupor long enough to say "it's six for east" or something to that effect. He may have been highly intoxicated, but he knew his rules (except Rule G...).
"Four for Eastbound." One of my favorites from the 1970s written by Lloyd Arkinstal (not sure of the spelling) who worked as a fireman on the Pennsylvania RR during WW2.
jeffhergert tree68 Whistle signals reminds me of a story is an old issue of Trains (IIRC). Seems the hogger had disregarded Rule G and was in no shape to run. The fireman took over the seat. Because they had stopped for some reason, there were flagmen out. This being pre-radio (steam as I recall), it was whistle signals to call the flagmen in. The fireman did some toots, not remembering exactly what the signal should be, at which point the hogger roused from his stupor long enough to say "it's six for east" or something to that effect. He may have been highly intoxicated, but he knew his rules (except Rule G...). "Four for Eastbound." One of my favorites from the 1970s written by Lloyd Arkinstal (not sure of the spelling) who worked as a fireman on the Pennsylvania RR during WW2. Jeff
My 1953 B&O Rule Book
1 Long 3 Shorts - Flagman protect rear of train.3 Short 1 Long - Protect front of train
4 Longs - Flagman may return from West or South in accordance with Flagging Rules.
5 Longs - Flagman may return from East or North in accordance with Flagging Rules.
Recalling Flagmen get even more involved when it happens in multiple track territory.
Lanterns are assigned yours to keep. Devices now are smaller, better brighter LED lights with three C battries and easier to handle compared to the Starlight models that used a single bulky battery. Paksets are assigned and stay w/you. The Kenwood I have has bn w/me going bk to over a decade ago when my 1998 Motorola was required to be traded in. The current pakset is battered, numbers have faded off the keyboard but the device still works as intended. A few yrs ago, a good fco-worker friend retired and handed me his Kenwood. I now have two radios which is a good thing as if one becomes lost, stolen or damaged, I have an immediate replacement. Never declined anything extra that is given to you. Sam
Perry Babin Is there anyone here who has worked at night to say how often they carried a railroad lantern vs just a good flashlight to see where you were going because you had a radio for communication?
Is there anyone here who has worked at night to say how often they carried a railroad lantern vs just a good flashlight to see where you were going because you had a radio for communication?
One thing that I found completely insane was that conductor trainees would show up fresh out of the NS school in McDonough, GA. not knowing how to properly hold a lantern! I don't know how many trainees I had to show how to do it properly!
.
SFbrkmn Lanterns are assigned yours to keep. Devices now are smaller, better brighter LED lights with three C battries and easier to handle compared to the Starlight models that used a single bulky battery. Paksets are assigned and stay w/you. The Kenwood I have has bn w/me going bk to over a decade ago when my 1998 Motorola was required to be traded in. The current pakset is battered, numbers have faded off the keyboard but the device still works as intended. A few yrs ago, a good fco-worker friend retired and handed me his Kenwood. I now have two radios which is a good thing as if one becomes lost, stolen or damaged, I have an immediate replacement. Never declined anything extra that is given to you. Sam
Narrow band equipped? A few years ago everyone who didn't have narrow band radio had to turn in their radios for new ones. They said the FCC would fine the railroad if anyone was found transmitting on the non-compliant ones.
I hadn't used mine since I went into engine service. Probably about 12 years or so. When I turned mine and the battery charger back in, I was able to use the original boxes it came in. I still had the boxes after all those years
When riding on equipment - you have to WATCH OUT FOR YOURSELF
https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/ntsb-issues-preliminary-report-on-csx-conductor-trainee-fatality/?RAchannel=news
I was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes. The engineer had a signal that meant "brakemen up" to the top of the cars, and one that meant they could climb down...all at speed. Imagine doing that job, hopping from car to car, on moving, swaying trains, around corners, in the rain & snow, heat, etc. It must have been the worst job in railroading; and all done by whistle commands.
NKP guyI was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes.
Longevity was not a hallmark of the brakeman's career.
tree68 NKP guy I was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes. Longevity was not a hallmark of the brakeman's career.
NKP guy I was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes.
And they rarely qualified for a five finger discount.
jeffhergert I think it was like 2011? when the narrow band change came about. The slightly larger Motorola x2000 I traded in for the new smaller Kenwood at the radio shop. when time allows, I join a group of retirees at a local burger joint in Wichita that gets together once a wk that is located by the tracks. One or two of these fellows brings their old paksets with them, have it on and able to hear the talking TWD five miles away knowing something is going to pass by fairly soon. In the basement man cave train room, I have my late father-in-law 1980s Motorola pakset (not useable of course). Compared to the devices now, that thing is big SFbrkmn Lanterns are assigned yours to keep. Devices now are smaller, better brighter LED lights with three C battries and easier to handle compared to the Starlight models that used a single bulky battery. Paksets are assigned and stay w/you. The Kenwood I have has bn w/me going bk to over a decade ago when my 1998 Motorola was required to be traded in. The current pakset is battered, numbers have faded off the keyboard but the device still works as intended. A few yrs ago, a good fco-worker friend retired and handed me his Kenwood. I now have two radios which is a good thing as if one becomes lost, stolen or damaged, I have an immediate replacement. Never declined anything extra that is given to you. Sam Narrow band equipped? A few years ago everyone who didn't have narrow band radio had to turn in their radios for new ones. They said the FCC would fine the railroad if anyone was found transmitting on the non-compliant ones. I hadn't used mine since I went into engine service. Probably about 12 years or so. When I turned mine and the battery charger back in, I was able to use the original boxes it came in. I still had the boxes after all those years Jeff
I think it was like 2011? when the narrow band change came about. The slightly larger Motorola x2000 I traded in for the new smaller Kenwood at the radio shop. when time allows, I join a group of retirees at a local burger joint in Wichita that gets together once a wk that is located by the tracks. One or two of these fellows brings their old paksets with them, have it on and able to hear the talking TWD five miles away knowing something is going to pass by fairly soon. In the basement man cave train room, I have my late father-in-law 1980s Motorola pakset (not useable of course). Compared to the devices now, that thing is big
Santa Fe yd jobs @ Newton, KS began using pakset radios in 1983. At first, only the foreman had one but quickly was exoanded to everyone on the job. At other locations and other carriers bk in that timeframe, I do not know when the blending of radio use age on yd work came about
NKP guyI was reading about brakemen in the days before air brakes. The engineer had a signal that meant "brakemen up" to the top of the cars, and one that meant they could climb down...all at speed. Imagine doing that job, hopping from car to car, on moving, swaying trains, around corners, in the rain & snow, heat, etc. It must have been the worst job in railroading; and all done by whistle commands.
At speed - speed for the day was in to 20 to 25 MPH range for freights. Still considering the track structure of the day - I am certain being on car tops at 25 MPH felt like 200 MPH.
There is a video of the SP moving a 20 cars or so train on a early Edison movie. Two engines on the head end and a helper cut in ahead of the caboose. I think I counted two brakemen decorating the tops of the cars.
Thanks for the interesting video. A short train, yet 2 brakemen. It makes me wonder if anyone complained at the time about "job-killing air brakes"? A good many men must have lost their jobs as a result. Better "job-killing" than man-killing, though.
The video clip reminded me of yet another hazard of a brakeman's job: a face full of cinders from time to time. How on earth did they do it?
How did they survive the tunnel?
Gramp How did they survive the tunnel?
Telltales told them to hit the deck.
Dealing with the fumes was another matter.
Here is a post about a new exhibit at the NY Museum of Transportation regarding crew communications. If anyone is traveling close to Rochester NY, it might be an interesting stop.
https://railroad.net/railroad-radio-exhibit-at-nymt-t175923.html
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