Oh my heavens if CARB doesn't let up Californians are going to be stuck breathing alot of clean particulate free air in the coming years.
Ulrich Oh my heavens if CARB doesn't let up Californians are going to be stuck breathing alot of clean particulate free air in the coming years.
All ten of the people left in the state who can afford to live there.
York1 John
NittanyLion My understanding is that their generation versus consumption is already a razor thin margin.
I mentioned somewhere earlier that a local solar farm project had to be cut back because the grid couldn't handle it. I've seen new lines of power poles going up in various locations.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Not when there is a major wildfire burning. I seem to recall that a major source of particulates in urban areas was from cooking.
Looks like the wagon train business is going to pick up. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Perhaps BNSF should relocate the proposed Barstow container facility to Topcock, AZ and then have all those containers trucked to/from Long Beach and the Inland Empire. That'll get rid of all those horrible diesel locomotives in SoCal!!! UP can do the same at Yuma, Reno and Medford OR.
Erik_MagI seem to recall that a major source of particulates in urban areas was from cooking.
The latter are dangerous in the same way 'legitimate' concerns with asbestos are: mechanical cellular damage, with the surface activity of the engine-derived particles only adding to the fun. The last time I looked at it, the proper types of GDI in high-speed engines produced very similar particulates on typical gasoline fuel. These go sailing right through any practical DPF I've ever seen discussed, so the whole eco-theatre business with wasting fuel regenerating crap is meaningless in addressing any of the issue at all.
The only practical thing to address it, in my opinion, is to control engine speed and load and greatly increase CR so that even particulates formed by carbon adsorption on inorganic dust components can be 'oxidized off' instead of quenched too early. This does imply more DEF in your SCR, but everything I've seen indicates the gain in efficiency covers much if not all that incremental cost.
If you can see the PM, it's annoying, but nowhere near the health hazard the invisible PM is...
Erik_MagNot when there is a major wildfire burning. I seem to recall that a major source of particulates in urban areas was from cooking.
A significant factor in California pollution is the fact that its most visible location (Los Angeles) is located in a basin, where the pollution collects. It takes a pretty good, sustained, breeze to flush it out.
I can recall driving through LA back in the early 1970's and having my eyes water, even though things looked relatively clear. That wasn't the case to the north and south.
Smog gets in your eyeshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnXnwLwmL2c
Smog in LA is nowhere near as bad as it was. When I first came, smog alerts kept kids from having PE, and elderly people were advised to stay inside. It has been many years since that has happened, even though there are a lot more people and cars. So the anti-polution rules have worked.
There is not a lot of CA food production that rides the rails out of CA, but what there is will disappear because CA agriculture will disappear.
The amount of electricity it will take to farm in CA will be enormous. Electricity will exceed $1 per kWH and keep climbing from there. Nobody really talks about the magnitude of the increase in the grid and the increase in generation needed to provide electricity for cars, trucks, trains, and electric "everything".
In the days before there were no autos everything came in to town on the train, and people rode their range-limited transportation (horse or horse and buggy) to the freight house, or grouped around the train station to live so they could just walk to the train station.
When electricity is so expensive that no one can afford to drive their car very far, perhaps the days of the ubiquitous rail line will return, albeit with electrified trains and freight stations with drone delivery launch pads and people living in delivery-drone-range clusters.
The enormous cost of "all electric" is going to drive up the cost of personal mobility exponentially and change people's lives and the American way of life back to living and mobility patterns of the late 1800s.
But more people will be riding passenger trains.
Meanwhile in Tesla's biggest sales territory - China - which is the driver of the bulk of its profits, here is how they are powered - over 1,100 existing coal plants at over 1,000 gigawatts of capacity with another 270 gigawatts planned to open over the next three years.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/859266/number-of-coal-power-plants-by-country/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/530569/installed-capacity-of-coal-power-plants-in-selected-countries/https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2022/11/15/china-maintains-plans-for-massive-additional-coal-expansion/amp/
China-sourced coal is the primary source for these plants. Indonesia and Russia are the next largest suppliers. Fourth is Australia and its coal hauling railroads.
So we will have electric trains in California and electric cars in California, but the actual actions of other nations - not just China, but India, the rest of Asia and others - in their own self-interest will dwarf and more than just cancel out all the claimed climate benefits of all the California CARB initiatives, including no diesel engines.
kgbw49 There is not a lot of CA food production that rides the rails out of CA, but what there is will disappear because CA agriculture will disappear. The amount of electricity it will take to farm in CA will be enormous. Electricity will exceed $1 per kWH and keep climbing from there. Nobody really talks about the magnitude of the increase in the grid and the increase in generation needed to provide electricity for cars, trucks, trains, and electric "everything". In the days before there were no autos everything came in to town on the train, and people rode their range-limited transportation (horse or horse and buggy) to the freight house, or grouped around the train station to live so they could just walk to the train station. When electricity is so expensive that no one can afford to drive their car very far, perhaps the days of the ubiquitous rail line will return, albeit with electrified trains and freight stations with drone delivery launch pads and people living in delivery-drone-range clusters. The enormous cost of "all electric" is going to drive up the cost of personal mobility exponentially and change people's lives and the American way of life back to living and mobility patterns of the late 1800s. But more people will be riding passenger trains. Meanwhile in Tesla's biggest sales territory - China - which is the driver of the bulk of its profits, here is how they are powered - over 1,100 existing coal plants at over 1,000 gigawatts of capacity with another 270 gigawatts planned to open over the next three years. https://www.statista.com/statistics/859266/number-of-coal-power-plants-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/530569/installed-capacity-of-coal-power-plants-in-selected-countries/https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2022/11/15/china-maintains-plans-for-massive-additional-coal-expansion/amp/ China-sourced coal is the primary source for these plants. Indonesia and Russia are the next largest suppliers. Fourth is Australia and its coal hauling railroads. So we will have electric trains in California and electric cars in California, but the actual actions of other nations - not just China, but India, the rest of Asia and others - in their own self-interest will dwarf and more than just cancel out all the claimed climate benefits of all the California CARB initiatives, including no diesel engines.
Along with it, the oh so important "administrators" will not be subjected to limited personal mobility.
OvermodI think, just as with CARB's edict to ban trucks beyond a certain calendar age from the state, much of this involves pure old-fashioned greed. Railroads are highly unlikely to 'abandon' operations in, or into/out of California... and if they did, you'd see them flip as many of the assets as possible to operators willing to satisfy the 'new' conditions.
I see it this way. UP, for example, owns three routes into California from the East (Donner, Feather River, Sunset). If forced to electrify (massive capital expense), it might only keep one, if it stays in business at all. The others it would abandon in a manner that keeps them out of the hands of competition.
- Ed Kyle
kgbw49 Meanwhile in Tesla's biggest sales territory - China - which is the driver of the bulk of its profits, here is how they are powered - over 1,100 existing coal plants at over 1,000 gigawatts of capacity with another 270 gigawatts planned to open over the next three years. https://www.statista.com/statistics/859266/number-of-coal-power-plants-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/530569/installed-capacity-of-coal-power-plants-in-selected-countries/https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2022/11/15/china-maintains-plans-for-massive-additional-coal-expansion/amp/ China-sourced coal is the primary source for these plants. Indonesia and Russia are the next largest suppliers. Fourth is Australia and its coal hauling railroads. So we will have electric trains in California and electric cars in California, but the actual actions of other nations - not just China, but India, the rest of Asia and others - in their own self-interest will dwarf and more than just cancel out all the claimed climate benefits of all the California CARB initiatives, including no diesel engines.
Regardless of whether it solves the global problem, reducing polution here where we live gives us cleaner air. As I said above, it has really worked in the LA area where I live over the last 30 years or so.
J. Bishop Regardless of whether it solves the global problem, reducing polution here where we live gives us cleaner air. As I said above, it has really worked in the LA area where I live over the last 30 years or so.
Backshop J. Bishop Regardless of whether it solves the global problem, reducing polution here where we live gives us cleaner air. As I said above, it has really worked in the LA area where I live over the last 30 years or so. I agree...to a point. I remember what Detroit looked like 55 years ago. The question is how much more needs to be spent to get a slight improvement if it ruins our economy and China and some others keep polluting a much greater amount?
I agree...to a point. I remember what Detroit looked like 55 years ago. The question is how much more needs to be spent to get a slight improvement if it ruins our economy and China and some others keep polluting a much greater amount?
So as a child you must have thought that if the neighbor kid skipped school, it was fine and dandy for you to do so as well.
I don't get your point. Every device "comes from" someplace or something. My point is that the electricity for my Tesla comes from devices on my roof, not from the electric grid. On my street, most houses have solar panels by now. But I am in an ideal sunny So. Cal location.
charlie hebdoSo as a child you must have thought that if the neighbor kid skipped school, it was fine and dandy for you to do so as well.
J. Bishop I don't get your point. Every device "comes from" someplace or something. My point is that the electricity for my Tesla comes from devices on my roof, not from the electric grid. On my street, most houses have solar panels by now. But I am in an ideal sunny So. Cal location.
Some folks have solar here, but not many. Solar farms are cropping up everywhere, if the local grid can handle the power they generate. And we have a lot of wind farms.
But the grid as it stands will not handle the required load - and our illustrious governor has now gotten her way and made new fossil fuel (including natural gas) installations illegal in the not too distant future. Of course, there are no plans to fortify the grid to make that happen - and we're back to the "electricity fairy."
We probably have enough generating capacity around here - but guess where all that power goes. If you guessed New York City, you'd be absolutely correct.
A fellow posted his thoughts about EV's after driving one (Mustang) for a while. He's from Canada, and has concluded that EV's are not the appropriate answer. He got rid of his and is looking to get a hybrid.
I've seen, but don't have a source, that there is not enough material on earth to make all the batteries that will be necessary for the number of EV's proponents would like to see.
While China produces more than double the CO2 than the US, their population is about 4 times larger. The US per person produces about 70% more than China per person. The US by far is the biggest emmiter per capita in the world.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/world/china-us-climate-cop26-intl-hnk/index.html#:~:text=Since%201850%2C%20China%20has%20emitted,of%20CO2%20%E2%80%93%20twice%20as%20much.
Solar from "farms" does have to go into the grid. But home solar almost all goes to the home, reducing demand on the grid, I would think. The biggest demand out here in So Calif is during the afternoon for air conditioners, and that is also when the sun is out, so it should balance out roughly. My net electric bill is tiny.
My wife works at a UC campus. With a parking permit, she can charge her EV for free while she works. The campus has uncountable solar panels.
I don't know how it nets out here, but my son told me that at Arizona State solar zeros electric out to the point no one pays attention to whether lights are on or not. But Phoenix also gets lots of sun.
Very common is to put the panels over parking lots, giving shade to the cars and producing power at the same time. You see this at schools and campuses all over here.
Anyway, for what they charge us I don't see why the electric utilities can't put up some more wires if needed.
The problem is a little more than just putting up some more wires.
tree68 J. Bishop I don't get your point. Every device "comes from" someplace or something. My point is that the electricity for my Tesla comes from devices on my roof, not from the electric grid. On my street, most houses have solar panels by now. But I am in an ideal sunny So. Cal location. Some folks have solar here, but not many. Solar farms are cropping up everywhere, if the local grid can handle the power they generate. And we have a lot of wind farms. But the grid as it stands will not handle the required load - and our illustrious governor has now gotten her way and made new fossil fuel (including natural gas) installations illegal in the not too distant future. Of course, there are no plans to fortify the grid to make that happen - and we're back to the "electricity fairy." We probably have enough generating capacity around here - but guess where all that power goes. If you guessed New York City, you'd be absolutely correct. A fellow posted his thoughts about EV's after driving one (Mustang) for a while. He's from Canada, and has concluded that EV's are not the appropriate answer. He got rid of his and is looking to get a hybrid. I've seen, but don't have a source, that there is not enough material on earth to make all the batteries that will be necessary for the number of EV's proponents would like to see.
Elecricity generation, transmission and storage will continue to evolve into more sustainable systems... and the biggest driver of that evolution will be demand driven by the move away from fossil fuels, government-mandated or otherwise. You can't just flip a switch and expect a capable, sustainable generation and transmission system to magically appear or fully evolved EVs to magically roll off assembly lines. It takes time and money, and none of that will happen without an economic incentive.
Even if you discount climate change or think we shouldn't do anything because China is still burning fossil fuels, there's the geopolitical element: our fossil fuel dollars fund some of the worst autocratic governments in the world, and those autocracies turn around and use our petrodollars to disrupt the liberal international order, harm U.S. national interests, and generally create havoc.
The world is messed up. Climate change dollars do the same thing. Solar panels and batteries, as well as their components, are market-dominated by, and will continue to be market-dominated by, the biggest autocratic government in the world.
Getting back to railroads, hopefully the CP initiative into hydrogen bears fruit. That would be a game changer for railroads.
Psychotour fossil fuel dollars fund some of the worst autocratic governments in the world, and those autocracies turn around and use our petrodollars to disrupt the liberal international order, harm U.S. national interests, and generally create havoc.
Our dollars spent on batteries and solar panels fund the worst autocratic government in the world, which uses slaves to build the panels, and that government turns around to disrupt U.S. national interests, and generally creates havoc by supporting and supplying another country's war and invasion of another country.
Just three years ago, North America produced more oil than it used.
The public is starting to sour on EV's for among other reasons, range issues, charging times and winter performance.
Rubbish. A poor comparison at best. Besides if my parents and more than likely the parents of everyone else on this Forum (Including you Charlie) found out I'd skipped school "Because everyone else is doing it!" I'd have had my butt kicked so hard I wouldn't have been able to sit down for a week!
Now tell me, who's going to kick the butts of China, India, Africa, et al. You? They're not going to derail their economies to keep you or anyone else happy.
You'll have to better next time.
Flintlock76 charlie hebdo So as a child you must have thought that if the neighbor kid skipped school, it was fine and dandy for you to do so as well. Rubbish. A poor comparison at best. Besides if my parents and more thank likely the parents of everyone else on this Forum (Including you Charlie) found out I'd skipped school "Because everyone else is doing it!" I'd have had my butt kicked so hard I wouldn't have been able to sit down for a week! Now tell me, who's going to kick the butts of China, India, Africa, et al. You? They're not going to derail their economies to keep you or anyone else happy. You'll have to better next time.
charlie hebdo So as a child you must have thought that if the neighbor kid skipped school, it was fine and dandy for you to do so as well.
Rubbish. A poor comparison at best. Besides if my parents and more thank likely the parents of everyone else on this Forum (Including you Charlie) found out I'd skipped school "Because everyone else is doing it!" I'd have had my butt kicked so hard I wouldn't have been able to sit down for a week!
I seem to recall China shut down industrial activities in the area around Peking for the month or so preceeding the 2008 Peking Olympics to let the smog clear from the area so it would not be point of complaint for foreign journalists covering the games.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I dont think so. Range for my EV is 300 miles. Can be charged overnight on my solar, and for the price of a parking permit ($15/mo) can be charged while parked at work. That power also comes from solar panels - mounted as shade over parking lots.
With an EV, I don't care what gas costs because there are no fuel costs. No maintance on engine, transmission, radiator, fan belt, water pump, etc., because EVs don't don't have them. Braking is mostly regenerative, just taking your foot off the "gas." So little brake maintance. Performance is stronger and smoother than any gas car I have ever had. Remember that for an electric motor, maximum torc is at 0 rpms, which is why locomotives use electric traction motors, and why streetcars (and trolley buses) and subways accellerate faster than buses.
My other cars are a van and a British sports car, which I love. This is my first EV. I have been driving for decades. EVs are better.
If solar stuff is being imported from China, a hostile power, that should be addressed. But it does not change the fact that EVs are better, and solar power is better because it more or less eliminates electic bills for most of us, even aside from polution problems. Home solar also reduces reliance on the electic grid.
In other words, we don't want to benefit China, which is a hostile power and absolutely does exploit its workers for the benefit of its elite (Marx must be rolling over in his grave). But that is a separate issue from whether EVs and solar are good things.
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