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And Another One Bites The Dust... Springfield, OH, March 2023

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 12:31 PM

Fred M Cain
Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence.

Fred's got a bit of a point, not a perfect point but one worth thinking about. Public perception is a powerful thing.  Those of us with a bit of knowledge about railroads know perfectly well that graffitti is sometimes unavoidable, but to Joe or Joan Average sitting at a grade crossing waiting impatiently for that THING that looks like a slum on wheels to get out of the way? It's understandable for them to wonder "What else is that railroad doing wrong?"  Especially in the light of current events.  And if that train's a monster train that keeps them waiting longer than they think they should?  Well then...

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Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 12:36 PM

Fred M Cain

 

 
n012944

 

 Fred M Cain
 Is there a connection here?
No.
 

 

 
Sorry, but your "no" is not convincing.  Someone needs to look into this.
 
At the very least, re-read my last paragraph.  It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large.  Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments.
 
Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence.
 

 

I agree, but there's not much the railroads can do about it.. It's worse in Europe where even the passenger trains are tagged. In Naples Italy last summer my wife and I  got on a train with "FRail written" (use your imagination) clear across the front of the engine (in English too!). Somehow that didn't equate to "unsafe" in my mind.. perhaps it would have 20 or 30 years ago. 

 

There's just no way the railroads can keep the graffiti off. But I don't think the tagging indicates that the equipment doesn't get inspected. I've also never felt particularly unsafe on the NYC subway system although it looks like an awful mess (although better than it was years ago). 

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 12:44 PM

Ulrich
 
Fred M Cain n012944 Fred M Cain
 Is there a connection here?
No. 
Sorry, but your "no" is not convincing.  Someone needs to look into this.
 
At the very least, re-read my last paragraph.  It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large.  Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments.
 
Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence. 

I agree, but there's not much the railroads can do about it.. It's worse in Europe where even the passenger trains are tagged. In Naples Italy last summer my wife and I  got on a train with "FRail written" (use your imagination) clear across the front of the engine (in English too!).  

There's just no way the railroads can keep the graffiti off. But I don't think the tagging indicates that the equipment doesn't get inspected.   

Several years ago I saw a YouTube video of a European passenger train being 'tagged' at a outlying station passenger stop in less than three minutes with crew and passengers on board.  The 'taggers' were a group of 10 to 12 individuals working in concert with each other and knew what they were trying to accomplish.  Rattle cans in the hands of those that know how to use them can cover a lot of area, quickly.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 1:59 PM

BaltACD
Rattle cans in the hands of those that know how to use them can cover a lot of area, quickly.

Hmm, maybe the railroads need designated marksmen armed with .22's to shoot the cans out of the hands of the taggers?  And causing the paint to splatter all over them?

I know, I know, a stupid unworkable solution.  But isn't it fun to think about?  Laugh

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 2:07 PM

Flintlock76
Hmm, maybe the railroads need designated marksmen armed with .22's to shoot the cans out of the hands of the taggers?  And causing the paint to splatter all over them? I know, I know, a stupid unworkable solution.  But isn't it fun to think about?  

Paintballs and video - and a reception party to greet them as they leave the property...

Where's that "smite" cartoon when you need it?

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 2:15 PM

Fred M Cain

 

 
n012944

 

 Fred M Cain
 Is there a connection here?
No.
 

 

 
Sorry, but your "no" is not convincing. 

 
Oh well.

Fred M Cain

 

Someone needs to look into this.
 
 

No, they don't.

 

Fred M Cain

At the very least, re-read my last paragraph.  It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large.  Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments.

 
Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence.
 

 

I doubt the railroads care.  Paint added to the outside of the car has nothing to do with inspections on the important parts of the car.  

An "expensive model collector"

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 2:25 PM

How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them?  They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 2:37 PM

SD70Dude
How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them?  They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....

every car will have a caboose coupled to it. 

  

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Posted by chutton01 on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 2:39 PM

Remember when auto chassis had zerks,

Well, no, since I never saw that word till 5 minutes ago as of this writing.  Grease fittings, OTOH, I have heard of and have used them (the fittings) in the past.  Still have a grease gun somewhere in the garage, haven't used for decades.

Anyway,  i've made no secret I live in the NY area, and often did take NYC Transit in the 1980s (and 90s). It is true that graffitti was fairly common ata the beginning of that period, but a concerted effort of policing the yards/stations along with taking trains out to remove the graffitti before returning them to service (takes away the 'glory' of your artwork boldly travelling the lines) made a significant effect on said graffitti (and scratchfitti of the windows) albiet varying a bit depending on how seriously such efforts were maintained (it fluctuated depending on adminstrations and finances).  Returning to freight railroads, I mentioned in some previous thread I was revieing many photographs (a hundred+) of freight cars I took in the 1990s/very early 2000's in locations like Newark, Patterson, Irvington, Long Island City, and so on, and contrary to my memory those feight cars were fairly clear of graffitti - yes there was a handful of tags, but even large light grey covered hoppers, yellow UPFE reefers and high-side gondola which nowadays would scream out 'mural bait' were not tagged.  DId the railroads as well as private car owners/leasers just give up? Is security just a nice-to-have (as exemplified by that Los Angeles IM corridor littered with the remements of looted containers on IM trains)? Yeah, 2 decades is a long time...but not that long in the big scheme of things.

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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 2:55 PM

zugmann

 

 
SD70Dude
How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them?  They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....

 

every car will have a caboose coupled to it. 

 

Tagged to match everything in front of it.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 2:56 PM

zugmann
SD70Dude
How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them?  They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....

every car will have a caboose coupled to it. 

Better put a marksman in each one along with the conductor.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 3:03 PM

chutton01

 

 
Remember when auto chassis had zerks,

 

Well, no, since I never saw that word till 5 minutes ago as of this writing.  Grease fittings, OTOH, I have heard of and have used them (the fittings) in the past.  Still have a grease gun somewhere in the garage, haven't used for decades.

Anyway,  i've made no secret I live in the NY area, and often did take NYC Transit in the 1980s (and 90s). It is true that graffitti was fairly common ata the beginning of that period, but a concerted effort of policing the yards/stations along with taking trains out to remove the graffitti before returning them to service (takes away the 'glory' of your artwork boldly travelling the lines) made a significant effect on said graffitti (and scratchfitti of the windows) albiet varying a bit depending on how seriously such efforts were maintained (it fluctuated depending on adminstrations and finances).  Returning to freight railroads, I mentioned in some previous thread I was revieing many photographs (a hundred+) of freight cars I took in the 1990s/very early 2000's in locations like Newark, Patterson, Irvington, Long Island City, and so on, and contrary to my memory those feight cars were fairly clear of graffitti - yes there was a handful of tags, but even large light grey covered hoppers, yellow UPFE reefers and high-side gondola which nowadays would scream out 'mural bait' were not tagged.  DId the railroads as well as private car owners/leasers just give up? Is security just a nice-to-have (as exemplified by that Los Angeles IM corridor littered with the remements of looted containers on IM trains)? Yeah, 2 decades is a long time...but not that long in the big scheme of things.

 

 

 

Yes, tagging of rail equipment really only became prolific after 2000. Before the turn of the century there was very little of it... even as late as 1999. 

The railroads are in a tough spot.. clearly tresspassing on railroad property is a common everyday occurrence everywhere. Yet, an injury (drunk lady gets hit by train while sitting on a rail) results in a huge $557 million dollar settlement against the railroad. 

 

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 3:16 PM

Ulrich
Yes, tagging of rail equipment really only became prolific after 2000. Before the turn of the century there was very little of it... even as late as 1999. 

The railroads are in a tough spot.. clearly tresspassing on railroad property is a common everyday occurrence everywhere. Yet, an injury (drunk lady gets hit by train while sitting on a rail) results in a huge $557 million dollar settlement against the railroad. 

Cars spend a significant amount of time OFF railroad property.  On the property of the shippers and consignees - for day(s) at a time.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 4:50 PM

One of the points of the M-942 greased package bearing design, as I recall, was that it would NOT be fitted with a zerk or any other sort of field-supplied lubricant.

Too many contaminants that can get in; too many ways for the little ball head to break off and leave a channel into the bearing.

Better seal design is where to put your effort.

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 6:16 PM

Overmod
that it would NOT be fitted with a zerk or any other sort of field-supplied lubricant. Too many contaminants that can get in; too many ways for the little ball head to break off and leave a channel into the bearing. Better seal design is where to put your effort.

Completely agree. I was just trying to point out that in the absence of fittings, there really isn't a lot of periodic maintenance to do (or miss) on a sealed bearing. Look for looseness, look for leaks, look for discoloration...that's about it.

 Notwithstanding that,  the integrity of the seal is a point of vulnerability, right off the factory floor.  Not for all units produced, just the rare one where a flaw finds it's way into the process.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 6:31 PM

Remember - the desired level of required maintenance among the railroads is - ZERO

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Posted by PennsyBoomer on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 6:52 PM

"If the railroads and other car owners cannot manage to keep the graffiti cleaned off the equipment and keep it painted, what else are they missing?"

Fred, this really sounds like apples and oranges. Unless you run a cut of cars through some sort of chemical paint wash every time they are pulled, the problem is nearly intractable. It is a visual depiction of the state of society that seems to accept such behavior. Moreover, graffiti has its fans and a lot of rolling stock has been rendered a blank canvas with little more than a reporting mark. There is no more correlation between graffiti and mechanical condition than there is that grime on an auto is indication the tires are going flat or the trasnsmission is busted. 

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Posted by PennsyBoomer on Tuesday, March 7, 2023 6:58 PM
But maybe if those painting graffiti could be trained and paid to make mechanical inspections before attacking a piece of rolling stock (and such training being made mandatory to purchase a spray can), the presence of graffiti would thus be a fine indicator of a car needing repair.
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Posted by Gramp on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 12:02 AM

Not a popular or "realistic" thought, but to me graffiti reveals poor use of the asset. Also no pride in the effort. Sad. 

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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 2:51 AM

Won't bother the corporate weasels keeping the wall street trash happy and demanding ever larger returns. Good corporate citizens are becoming hard to find these days.

Diesel- fried chicken guy's current project  is being threatened by the NS mess even though they had nothing to do with it and are far away. The chicken littles of the world, irrational and uninformed as they are, are exploding in number and being stirred-up by the wackos in the yellow press. 

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by NittanyLion on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 8:45 AM

PennsyBoomer
There is no more correlation between graffiti and mechanical condition than there is that grime on an auto is indication the tires are going flat or the trasnsmission is busted. 

You're dead on.  All this stuff about "what else did they miss" and "it shows no pride" is complete nonsense.  All it does demonstrate is that the typical freightcar spends much of its life outside of a secured area. Locomotives spend, on average, more of their idle time in more secure areas and they're less likely to be tagged.  Amtrak equipment spends more of its idle time in secure areas and I'm not sure I've ever seen one tagged. WMATA, MARC, and VRE don't get tagged because they're stored behind fences.  That's it.  That's all it is.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 8:45 AM

mudchicken
Won't bother the corporate weasels keeping the wall street trash happy and demanding ever larger returns.

Reminds me of a quote from a CSX official I read in "Trains" a while back:

"Oh, we don't mind the graffiti on the cars, it saves US the trouble of painting them!"

Whether he was joking or not the article didn't say, but honestly I wasn't surprised by it.

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Posted by CSX Robert on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 9:35 AM

Fred M Cain
Think about this for a moment:  If the railroads and other car owners cannot manage to keep the graffiti cleaned off the equipment and keep it painted, what else are they missing?  Are the brakes, cylinders and wheel bearings getting a thorough inspection?

Would you prefer they spend time cleaning graffiti off or doinga safety inspection?

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Posted by bogie_engineer on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 9:35 AM

Overmod

One of the points of the M-942 greased package bearing design, as I recall, was that it would NOT be fitted with a zerk or any other sort of field-supplied lubricant.

Too many contaminants that can get in; too many ways for the little ball head to break off and leave a channel into the bearing.

Better seal design is where to put your effort.

 

Agreed. I was told by Timken reps that having a zerk invites over-lubrication which is a bad thing too. It causes seal leakage which can get the bearing pulled for a bad seal when there is nothing wrong with it. In the mid-80's they were promoting the "NFL" bearing - no field lubrication.

Dave

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Posted by Fred M Cain on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 10:06 AM

Well, here we go again ~ !  Still another one bites the dust ~ !  This looks like it happened yesterday in Verdigris OK, where ever the heck that is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD6T68tPh04 

It kinda appeared to me like the rear truck on the bulkhead flat car was already running on the ties when it hit the asphalt at the grade crossing.  The shock looked like it ripped the whole truck off its bolster then in turn ripped the lead truck off on the tank car behind it.

 

SHEESH ~ ! I've said it before but it bears repeating. There's an awful lot of stuff that I sharply disagree with Pete Buttigieg on but I think he's right that this seems to be happening far too often.

 

<EDIT> Actually, I would like to revise what I stated above.  Watching the video a second time, it appears as though the lead truck on the tank was already on the ground as well.

I wonder, could a technology possibly be developed that would cause a train to go into emergency as soon as a wheel would come off the rail head?  As it stands now, a train will not go into emergency until the brake line is severed (or, unless a crew member "dumps the air").

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 10:51 AM

Man, I haven't seen a frequency of derailments like this since I was watching a friends HO set when I was ten years old!  That made me stick with O Gauge from that day to this, and it's almost 60 years!  

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Posted by Fred M Cain on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:13 AM

Flintlock76

Man, I haven't seen a frequency of derailments like this since I was watching a friends HO set when I was ten years old!  That made me stick with O Gauge from that day to this, and it's almost 60 years!

Yeah, I've always been partial to "O" gauge as well.  Although I didn't necessarily notice fewer derailments with it, I just always liked the larger size of the equipment.

Unfortunately, the prices are also a helluva lot bigger too ~ !

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:21 AM

Fred M Cain
Unfortunately, the prices are also a helluva lot bigger too ~ !

On a lot of the new stuff, sure.  But there's some great deals out there now on Lionel Post-Wars, MPC and Kughn Era products!  Woo-hoo!  Big Smile

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 1:16 PM

Fred M Cain
I wonder, could a technology possibly be developed that would cause a train to go into emergency as soon as a wheel would come off the rail head?

I related elsewhere the story (from Trains?  Classic Trains?) of a situation where a truck derailed, but everything remained in line otherwise, rolling merrily down the railroad.  Eventually the truck re-railed itself, so all appeared normal when the train reached its next destination.

Except the damage done to trackside equipment (junction boxes, etc) while it was derailed.  Raised Cain with the dispatcher's display, too.

I would suppose it would be possible to sense such a misalignment, but a dragging equipment detector would also likely alert.

The crossing seemed to be an issue in the second derailment in this series as well.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, March 8, 2023 4:11 PM

Fred M Cain

Well, here we go again ~ !  Still another one bites the dust ~ !  This looks like it happened yesterday in Verdigris OK, where ever the heck that is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD6T68tPh04 

It kinda appeared to me like the rear truck on the bulkhead flat car was already running on the ties when it hit the asphalt at the grade crossing.  The shock looked like it ripped the whole truck off its bolster then in turn ripped the lead truck off on the tank car behind it.

 

SHEESH ~ ! I've said it before but it bears repeating. There's an awful lot of stuff that I sharply disagree with Pete Buttigieg on but I think he's right that this seems to be happening far too often.

 

<EDIT> Actually, I would like to revise what I stated above.  Watching the video a second time, it appears as though the lead truck on the tank was already on the ground as well.

I wonder, could a technology possibly be developed that would cause a train to go into emergency as soon as a wheel would come off the rail head?  As it stands now, a train will not go into emergency until the brake line is severed (or, unless a crew member "dumps the air").

 

That second car is not a tank car.  It's a coil steel car.  What makes it look like a tank is the cover for the load.

Jeff

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