Question for a train crew

[fievel]

Excuse me, but if an employee wishes not to get fired for smoking ,THEN STOP SMOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many other RR rules and LAWS do you ignore? Are you really paying
attention to all the hazards of your job? Or are you focusing on being mean
and nasty to most people ? You must stay angry at the world.

For the safety of the public, YOU should be asked to leave RR property!

[halifaxcn]

I usually stay at least 40-50 feet away and keep an escape path open in case I need to run. I always stay on the same side as my car. In addition I try and take my photos from away. I do wave at the crew and never make sudden moves. I have been in the Attleboro MA station with ACELA's blasting through at over 90mph and it is something to experience!

Remember, my mantra is always be safe, everybody goes home after train watching

[dekemd]

I used to stay about 30 ft from the tracks when railfanning. Now it's around 100ft. Why, you ask? I have a spot that I go to often to railfan. I had a spot about 30ft from the tracks where I would sit. One day I went there and found that on my spot was a fully loaded coal-porter on its side. Behind it was a pile of 13 more coal-porters. Some stacked three high.[:0] A broken rail caused the derailment. That one car kicked out sideways a perfect 90 degrees from the track right on my usual spot. If you do the math, 50 ft coal-porter@ 90 degrees=end of car 50ft from track+railfan only 30ft from track=one very flat railfan. So keeping in mind those pesky 89ft flats, add a little more safety room just in case and I'm now at 100ft.[:)].

[wccobb]

Have been railfannin' with camera since 1946 (Read that: 59 years). Long enuf for some preferences:
1) Modern zoom lenses are terriffic. 28mm is great for the downtown big-city depot & the scenic shots down the valley or elsewhere. 200mm is great for the "railfan 3/4 front view" while the train is a block or so away. (Read that: while I'm off RR ROW).
2) "While I'm off RR ROW" is gotta be RULE ONE. Biggest reason: SAFETY. minor reason: even if "paranoia1" calls you in, all the co. bulls can do is be polite !!!! (Read that: if stupid enuf to come.)
3) I prefer scenery & equipment w/o people. Given the opportunity, I'll wait until they're all busy elsewhere, then take my photos. (Suggestion to RR operating people: when at track speed, keep your heads inside.)
4) In all those 59 years I have N E V E R had a request from RR management for a photo. (Read that: 'Nuf said ????)

"...the picture taken could be used to fire a crew" ... "It is hard to get caught when there is no picture of it.. no prof, no problem". Yeah, Right !!! Like it's always the cop's fault whenever anyone gets caught speeding. Yeah, Right !!! (Read that: best possible reason for "weed-weasels" and it don't come from RR management.)

[Roger38]

Re the 80 ft from track, from my experiance as a utilities engineer, needing to obtain permits to place utility lines adjacent to or across RR property the following was a general rule:
The R O W in rural areas is usually 50 feet each side of center of track if single track, in double track territory it is often measured from center of the first track laid. In cities and towns the only way to know is to see a railroad R O W map. Many businesses are on the R O W, such as elevators, lumber yards, junk yards etc. I have seen places where a state highway has an easement from the RR for highway use.

[Anonymous]

bawbyk--

I gotta back wabash1 on this one. I think you misunderstand where he's coming from. Railroaders generally don't go out and intentionally break rules, but minor infractions do happen. The guy that nailed it best was csx engineer when he said that if you followed every little rule to the letter, you'd never get a train out of the yard, let alone over the road. Unfortunately, he's exactly right. That doesn't mean that we're out there doing stupid or unsafe things, it means that we do what we have to do to get the job done.

The thing you have to understand is this: Management tends to be very bureaucratic in the way they approach things. It doesn't make them bad guys and it doesn't mean they're out to get anybody. Anyone in management who's been out in the real world knows exactly how things get done, but they have to enforce the rules strictly because of a little thing called liability. If that's not enough, they have to deal with the real bureaucrats, the government people, as well. (Read FRA) The end result of this is that even the smallest technical infraction results in a major s--tstorm landing directly on your head, without benefit of a hardhat. It's certainly not impossible for this to happen because of a picture taken by a railfan.

I could go into a great deal more detail here, but enough said.

--JD

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bawbyk

nice attitude wabash1 -- just keep on breaking the rules. When you get caught blame someone else!!!!

Bob

It is hard to get caught when there is no picture of it.. no prof no problem. And if all you get out of what i said is that i am blaming someone else well then all i can say is you are the reason most buffs get treated the way they do. Your way of think is " its my hobby and i have the right to do as i want regardless of what anyone else thinks" and with A attitude like that you wonder why i have you guys arrested by the cops. or at least harrased. and that is my right.

[Anonymous]

I am a RailFan in Southern Ontario, and since childhood have lived within 5 minutes of a mainline. I can remember the big bonehead move my dad made when we were out "train hunting" and got caught crossing a 40 foot double track bridge over the road by an unexpected freight. I can still close my eyes and remember the panic sound in the horn of the CN Locomotive. I must apologize to the crew, and all crews who have experienced bonehead childhood moves, and in my adult life as a member of a hospital trauma team, I do know what happens and totally respect life. Now when I go watching, and it may be with my 5 and 8 yr old stepsons, we stay well back and follow the steps of canazar. The difference in how you are percieved when being upfront, and visiting the place of trains is excellent, my boys never believed there was a bathroom in a freight locomotive, but now they know, and wonder if it ever spills over?

I must say we stick to High Visiblility colthing, orange traffic vests have seemed to work for us in the past, we do carry a radio scanner, helpful in knowing we will see a meet, or if there is a possible problem on a soon to be passing train. Unfortunately we have also graduated to giving the odd management scare to a passing crew as we stand near our white dodge dakota near the CP line in our high visibility clothing. the only difference between us and a railway truck is the lack of railway labeling, 2 kids, and no high-rail.

We enjoy the response we get when we stand back and wave, the crew always seems to give us a toot or more on the horn, even when there is no crossing or whistle sign near by. The boys recognize the sound of Dynamic brakes when at the cottage near the CN Ardbeg Crossing and can tell which way the train is headed.

To all the readers, keep it safe and you can gain respect and welcoming, and if you wi***o cause trouble, I hope the Railway or Local police catch you, and give you the bonehead fine, hoping you will brighten up. As for those who are safe, and get pestered by the railway police, remember they are doing there job, if they know you from past visits, somebody complained and they have been sent to enforce a rule of their job. If you didn't do your specific job when officially sent, you could expect reprimand too.

Keep Safe,
Ian

[Anonymous]

As an engineer, I often see railfans along the ROW. Too often I see persons attempting to take photos from places or in areas I would - and no doubt the Railway would - consider unsafe, especially on the territory I travel: The former Milwaukee Road Chicago - St. Paul main line.

While I certainly don't mind railfans and photographers out on the property, and I certainly enjoy seeing the fruits of their labors, much as they do mine, it pains me to think of what could happen if someone got a bit too careless.

Also, very important to keep in mind, is what has been mentioned in a previous reply: Certain photos could taken that could inadvertently be used to implicate some sort of wrong-doing by a train or MOW crew. While I'm not advocating short-cuts or rules violations, they can and do happen. This has been a reality of railfanning as long as there have been railroads, but it's a point worth noting. The quickest way to make enemies out on the property is to point out some flaw in the operation, and worse yet would be to take a photo of it.

The primary thing to keep in mind is to just think safety, and use your common sense. Keep a good distance from the Right Of Way, and always be prepared for movement on any track, at any time. Never set your cameras or tripods between the rails, and don't hold up mock whistle boards or anything else that could be construed as some sort of signal or indication.

[bawbyk]

nice attitude wabash1 -- just keep on breaking the rules. When you get caught blame someone else!!!!

Bob

[canazar]

Wow, stumbled upon this thread and have really enjoyed. Its good info that I needed to know. I have found myself headeep in the hobby of trains and in the fun of railfanning. It started as somehting for me new son and I to bond over when I became enaged to his mom. (his real dad is worthless drugged out POS)

When we go "train hunting" , mostly to the yards around Phoenix, we have usually gone at night when traffic and hustle and buslte is low. If there is someone who I think is paid enough to care or look like they would, we usually let him know we are there and why. (UP yard no one seems to care we stay pretty out of the way, BNSF is alot smaller, we usually check in atthe office with the trainmaster) I usually make him carry a small flashlight (mostly glows ) and keep him close to me. Stay on the asphalt or sidewalks and we just never, never corss a track, regardless. I have found we cna get plenty close enough that way. When we are near an engine moveing, I just pick him up (he is only 4) and hold on to him. Just for the reason, if I were the guy operating the engine, a kid cant dart out if Dad is holding him. Or, I kneel down and wrap an arm around him not so much for my sake, ( he knows the rules and wont budge) but the guy on the throttle doesnt know and I do for his peace of mind. And, make sure I apply alot of common sense and think if "I were him, what I want....?" I guess we are doing somehting right. dozen trip to the yards and have been invited up on 3 different engines...

As far as pictures go, I kinda look at this way. My professional job is a 4x4 shop owner. I spend alot of time dealing with 4x4's and the industry. Most mags dont want shots when you can see people. So, I use the same rule, nadda on shots with folks in them.

So, OK here is my questions for the pro's. When I have been out takign pictures, I do keep the safe distance, I can respect heavy equipment and I know I cant run that fast... I usually try and do the freindly one handed wave when I know they can see me at eye distance, and make sure they can see me.. I saw some replys about clothing.... is there some thing good to wear, or the idea "just make sure you are visibe??"

Best Regards..
John Kanicsar

[Justicar]

Actually, equinox, if vandenbm comes around the property taking pics and wabash1 reports his prescence, trespassing or not, right or wrong, twinkies or ding dongs, vandenbm is raising his chances of coming onto the radar of railroad management or police and who wants that? Sure if confronted vandenbm can explain his side and he'll probably not get into any trouble but who wants to attract the wrong kind of attention? Before I became a rail I always strove to maintain a low profile. Having to present your ID to the cops or railroad police and becoming a name on some kind of list isn't really very wise, especially in this post 9-11 thing. I realize railfans can get frustrated when they don't exaxtly get a fair shake from railroad employees but you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

I certainly hope Mike continues taking pics as I like to look at them but the bottom line is that we all have to get along. The solution isn't one decided on its legal merits, but common sense.

[David Bennett]

We are very fortunate in our home being about a mile from three main CP/CN lines and two of my favourite photo locations are from bridges over two of the lines. I stand to one side of the bridge when photographing down on the approaching train so the crew is not concerned about me dropping an object on them. In this crazy world I wouldn't blame them for being concerned about what would be unthinkable when I was a boy. Trackside shots I take well back from the right of way. One of the locations is on a curve and I have yet to stand anywhere except on the "inside" of the curve even though the best angle would be on the outside, never know what could happen.

Much good advice, thank you all.

[nobullchitbids]

Just a reminder to all that railroad rights of way are, indeed, private property, and one needs permission ahead of time to go on them for any purpose, including taking pictures. Weird things happen on railroad rights of way: I was traveling on the former City of Everywhere in Iowa once when the train came upon a postal truck which had been parked too close to the tracks. The mailman was dropping his sacks in the nearby storage shed. Train hit the truck; truck hit the shed; shed was knocked sideways, killing the mailman. He was plenty of feet away from the tracks when it happened.

Well, maybe not plenty enough.

[Anonymous]

Just a comment from a railfan:
Up here on the hudson line in New York, a CSX freight passing New Hamburg station had a door blow off a boxcar, and smash into the passenger waiting room on the platform. Luckily it was around 4AM; 2 hours later and commuters would have been killed. Just a point to keep inj mind
Dennis Skea

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Children running into the gauge. Yes, normal streetcar motorman training on conventional streetcars includes: If you need to stop and the brakes have failed shut off power, throw the reverse key into reverse, and apply one point of power. (On a four motored car you DON'T have to apply the one point of power, but who in an emergency is going to stop to think whether he/she is running a four-motor or two-motor streetcar?)

That is why sometime ago when I saw an article on the AT&SF diesel looking like it was about to fly over the highway boardering the bumping posts at LA Union, I wondered, why didn't the engineer try to reverse the locomotive? (Maybe not possible with today's microprocessor controls, but back then?

Any ideas?

You will be surprised how much data your brain is capable of handling in a geunine emergency. I have been thru several at speed on my semi and unimportant things such as brake tank pressure (primary and secondary), that one tire needing work, the angle of the 5th wheel in your mirrior (too much = jacknife) your current power status and gear setting..(never take your mind off the gears) the person in the problem area, thier actions etc..A person can handle several problems and perhaps juggle several variables (Balls) in the air at one time... but keep in mind that "one more ball" added to the problem pile will be too much. And also time is the problem. There is always a certain time that passes. Once it does it's simply necessary to grab a hold of something to hang on and pray that it does not get too messy or hurt too hard.

I like to watch trains but I try to keep my camera in plain view. I usually stand my ground 15 feet away or so. I got within arms reach of a B&O freight at Harper's Ferry once (Dont ask how) and I will never do that again. It is better to stay a distance away.

I like the idea of children being made to sit down on the ground. That really reassures the engineer.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1
if i see you taking a picture close to the tracks i will report you as a treaspasser and have you arrested if you are away from the tracks there not much i can do about it. but by all rights you picture takers should ask if you could have the pic first. its my choice not yours.

Actually, it is not your choice. Anytime you are out in public, you (meaning anyone) have no "expected right of privacy", unless you have secluded yourself in a place where you DO have a expectation of privacy (such as restrooms, doctor's office, dressing room, and inside your house).

I highly reccommend the following web site for anyone that has a concern about what they can legally photograph, or whether you can be legally photographed.
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

So when you're out there, remember: Smile, you might be on candid camera.

[Anonymous]

I'm just happy to have a forum such as this to find answers to my questions whether I had thought of the answer before or not. So, many thanks again wabash1 and you can rest assured I'm frosty as ever here in MN. Safe travels!

[wabash1]

to answer this question is simple if there is a siding in the area that you favor then talk with the crews most will let you have pics.( including me ) anyways you want( except i wont be in it) lights on or off you on or off the engine ( if posible) get the point. also there is a guy who use to take pictures of us moving at high speed. he got to know many crews and which ones didnt like thier pics taken. ( he used a scanner and listen in) like i said i dont care about what you take a picture of as long as i am not in it. the reason why i dont like my picture taken ...I cant pin point it maybe i was on a wanted poster in a past life.. who knows it just something i dont like . the few pics i have had taken ( drivers lic railroad id card , mug shot , ) I am not on here to make waves as it might seem. just putting things in a differant light. and opening the possibilities.... and if nothing else showing how bad i can spell. and to give a correct answer to any questions i can.

now as ed would say stay frosty

[Anonymous]

Mike--

I knew I had you pegged right. You're a good guy and your response to wabash1 proves it. I'm not sure why he doesn't like cameras, but it really doesn't matter. I used to work with a guy who hated to have his picture taken, so this isn't something new to me. The guy I worked with couldn't ( or wouldn't ) say why he didn't like it, he just didn't. Wabash1 also brings out a good point about the occasional "unintended consequences" of an otherwise innocent picture. As both a railroader and a railfan I have to admit that his comments made me think, too. The question now seems to be how do we indulge our hobby without stepping on the rights of those who don't want to be photographed?

--JD

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

dont hide behind the its my hobby ill do as i wi***hing.

I have no such feeling. Your opinion has caused much thought and consideration on my part. It's hard to know how one feels about a situation when all you can read is text and not hear the inflection in their voice. I in no way was discounting your opinion or trying to say I don't care what you have to say. I appreciate the feedback you have given.

[CSXrules4eva]

Hay Mr sean.kelly I agree w/ ya 100 percent on this issue. I'm not a railroader yet I'm a student diesel mechinest and happen to be a train freak. The tips or rules you listed are very percise and accurate. No one wants to hut anybody out there on the rails. Many railroaders engineers, conductors ect. . . . . get concerned when they see someone near the tracks because they don't want to run them over. They just want to do their job in a safe satisfactory mannor.
Some railfans and non railfans have respect for trains but, not to the degree of were they concider them a treat. Railroaders even if they are also railfans take everything about trains into concideration when it comes to safety. This is because, they were not only tought to be safe but, they have also seen horrible accidents happen. So, this proves that railroaders GREATLY respect trains.
So to all other railfans out there. . . . ..take all things into consideration when it comes to being around or near the railroad. Anything could happen!!!!!!!! Espually (spelling) w/ the size and power of trains these days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Like other railroader here.......I say must the same thing.

1/ Usually you "can pick 'em" that is, the genuine foamers from the raving nutters. Railfans generally have railfan equipment, sometimes wear "train-deflecting jackets", usually look friendly etc etc. And, they're the most common "bystander" in rural areas besides the main. In metropolitan areas however, I'm much more cautious, even way down here in Australia we have our fair share of loopies standing by the right-of-way.

2/ Take the advice, stand well back, you just never know when something's gunna' fall off a freight car. Load-shifts, damaged brake rodding, even a hanging bit of wire will cut you in half or kill you instantly. When I was a young Fireman 20 years, ago my "regular-mate" (the Locomotive Driver who was my "buddy" on the roster) always got out of the "seat" when we passed another freight train on "his side" of the cab; especially at night, even when the "track centres" were far apart. I continue this practice today and teach the up-n-commin' kids the same thing. I've seem locomotive cabs speared like olives in a martini!!!!

3/ Respect us and we'll respect YOU (mostly of course - like any workplace, we do have our few "sad" cases). Even though many Engineers are fans to some degree or another, the difference between us and "civillian" fans (you) is that this is our craft, our profession, the way we pay our way through life, slave for "the bank" etc. Reverse the situation you put yourselves in to your own work environments and ponder your reaction to me hanging around your workplace (with good if somewhat occasionally misguided actions). How would you expect me to behave? ......With respect for you and your colleagues I expect???

4/ Remember that most of us have had the occasional fatality. Some of us cope better than others but even the best men (and women) Engineers (and other in-cab crew members) end up with their hearts in their throats occasionally. Daily, we have to contend with "Darwin Award Winning" & moronic members of the public putting their lives on the line - therefore, it's probably reasonable to expect a higher standard of behaviour from "our" railfans than from the "masses".

5/ Consider that to me, anything beside the track, especially if it's moving towards the right-of-way is a potential risk to my train, my income, and the safety of myself and my assistant/conductor/trainee. Consider that every additional trackside or "in-cab" event is yet another distraction from my primary duty of wielding the throttle, dynamics and Uncle George in a manner that ensures the absolute safety of the employees, other members of the public, my employers equipment and the customers cargo. Signals, track geometry, in-train forces & slack, data loggers, Issac Newton & most of all the "Inquiry Board", don't "give me an "automatic discount" for the distraction caused by the few irresponsible ones amongst a great group of people when I make a scramble of my 5000 tonne egg! (yeah - our Aussie trains are "babies" compared to yours ;-)
Unlike "Train-simulator" there is no "reset game" button!!!

Happy Railfanning! :-)

Sean
Locomotive Driver
Melbourne Australia.

[Anonymous]

Here in the U.K rules are different. If anyone is found near the track it is reported to the signaller and trains are on a go slow past the point you were seen causing massive delays until you are moved on. But i would say if you could wear hi-visibility clothing and the further away from the track you are can only be a good and safe thing for all parties. All the best

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vandenbm

I respect your opinion but I don't see the railfans stopping their hobby anytime soon. Obviously I'm not trying to get you fired, but if that's what you're worried about...I'm not sure how I have any control over that.

Your original statement was better but now that you changed it i will reply . I gave you my opinion I know it was not what you was looking for . But it is the truth. we have delt with this before on this forum about 2 years ago and the reply from me is the same . if you get close i will have you arrested. dont hide behind the its my hobby ill do as i wi***hing. if i dont like my picture taken i should not have to put up with buffs doing just that. now on the other hand i have let kids with their parents on the engine and have given rides to them also . i am not against railfans just camera people.

[Anonymous]

I respect your opinion but I don't see the railfans stopping their hobby anytime soon. Obviously I'm not trying to get you fired, but if that's what you're worried about...I'm not sure how I have any control over that.

[wabash1]

it does not bother me anymore if someone gets on the tracks while i am approaching them. if they stay there i will hit them. if someone is standing there holding a camera i get pissed. i dont want my picture taken and the picture taken could be used to fire a crew. If you take a picture of me on a engine and they see i am smoking i can get fired. simple as that those pictures can be used against a crew. In other words if i see you taking a picture close to the tracks i will report you as a treaspasser and have you arrested if you are away from the tracks there not much i can do about it. but by all rights you picture takers should ask if you could have the pic first. its my choice not yours.

[daveklepper]

Children running into the gauge. Yes, normal streetcar motorman training on conventional streetcars includes: If you need to stop and the brakes have failed shut off power, throw the reverse key into reverse, and apply one point of power. (On a four motored car you DON'T have to apply the one point of power, but who in an emergency is going to stop to think whether he/she is running a four-motor or two-motor streetcar?)

That is why sometime ago when I saw an article on the AT&SF diesel looking like it was about to fly over the highway boardering the bumping posts at LA Union, I wondered, why didn't the engineer try to reverse the locomotive? (Maybe not possible with today's microprocessor controls, but back then?

Any ideas?

[Anonymous]

Lets put it this way, the closer you get, the more nervous we get. You never know when someone is going to dart in front of the train at the last minute.