https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/second-railroad-union-rejects-paid-sick-time-deal-adding-to-strike-worries
The Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen said nearly 61 percent of the workers who voted opposed the five-year contract even though it included 24 percent raises and $5,000 in bonuses. It is the second rail union to reject a deal this month.
Contrcts involve much more than money. Those outside the Unions can ONLY understand the money, not all the other issuses that cause contracts to be rejected. Thusly, outsiders have no idea what the real points of conflict are.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Do you think that the consolidation that has gone on in the industry the past 60 years has given the handful of major players that survive, excess bargaining power?
In illustration, back when there were 30 class ones, it might have been more crucial to retain the best qualified employees, because they could usually walk across town and go to work for your competitor, if they were unhappy. Now with the way things are, employees have fewer options, and would customarily have to move to a new town to work for a different railroad.
Additionally, with so many competing entities, the opportunity to grasp business from a competitor was greater back then, so it paid to keep "extra ponies" in the stable, just in case they were needed. In today's environment, things are more predictable.
BaltACD Contrcts involve much more than money. Those outside the Unions can ONLY understand the money, not all the other issuses that cause contracts to be rejected. Thusly, outsiders have no idea what the real points of conflict are.
Maybe part of the problem is just that, the attitude that nobody outside can understand. If these workers are to achieve their goals, they need support from broader public. Perhaps better PR is needed. The signalmen's union president's statement is a step in the right direction: "Union President Michael Baldwin said the “lack of good-faith bargaining” by the railroads and the recommendations of a board of arbitrators that President Joe Biden appointed this summer denied workers the “basic right of paid time off for illness.”."
C.O. Consolidation from 30 to 6 gave the rails much more power in negotiations.
Convicted One Now with the way things are, employees have fewer options, and would customarily have to move to a new town to work for a different railroad.
I suspect many of the people that are looking for a new job (or may be looking) are fully prepared to leave the industry.
The RR industry's carrot has been shrinking for a while now.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
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charlie hebdoThe signalmen's union president's statement is a step in the right direction: "Union President Michael Baldwin said the “lack of good-faith bargaining” by the railroads and the recommendations of a board of arbitrators that President Joe Biden appointed this summer denied workers the “basic right of paid time off for illness.”."
It may be a baby step in the right direction. Where is it established that it is a basic right to receive paid time off for illness? Was there once a provision in the contract to take unlimited paid days off for illness?
I have suggested many times here that the issues are not being explained to the public, and that that would be a great oportunity to get more traction and support for Labor's case. But I am told that such an explanaton is not possible because only those directly affected by the problem can understand it.
Euclid charlie hebdo The signalmen's union president's statement is a step in the right direction: "Union President Michael Baldwin said the “lack of good-faith bargaining” by the railroads and the recommendations of a board of arbitrators that President Joe Biden appointed this summer denied workers the “basic right of paid time off for illness.”." It may be a baby step in the right direction. Where is it established that it is a basic right to receive paid time off for illness? Was there once a provision in the contract to take unlimited paid days off for illness? I have suggested many times here that the issues are not being explained to the public, and that that would be a great oportunity to get more traction and support for Labor's case. But I am told that such an explanaton is not possible because only those directly affected by the problem can understand it.
charlie hebdo The signalmen's union president's statement is a step in the right direction: "Union President Michael Baldwin said the “lack of good-faith bargaining” by the railroads and the recommendations of a board of arbitrators that President Joe Biden appointed this summer denied workers the “basic right of paid time off for illness.”."
Can't speak to other craft's contracts. Under the ATDA contract when I had Colon Cancer in 1996, the contract, in accordance with my 31 years of service at that point in time, allowed for full pay for 30 days, 3/4 pay for another 30 days and 1/2 pay for a further 30 days. Differences between full and reduced levels were to be supplemented by Railroad Retirement Unemployment benefits. I entered the hospital on July 9 and returned to work after Labor Day.
The ATDA contract with my level of seniority allowed 30 days of 'Sick Leave' per year that would be rolled over for a maximum of three years - thus with my 30+ years of Seniority and not having taken prior sick days - at the time of my illness I had 90 days of sickness benefits available to me. For employees with less seniority there were steps to accrue the upto 30 days sick leave per year.
Of course all this took place in time where the 'Us v Them' animosity was at a lower level than currently exists with the PSR Band banging the drums and playing their 76 trombones for their big parade to crush the crafts.
As has been illuminated by Zug and Jeff Hergert - the carriers are using 'approval' tactics to intimidate employees in their crafts from utilizing the benefits of sick and/or personal time provisions that exist in their contracts.
I can tell you this much. Right now my industry is starting to prepare for the holiday peak rush season. We're scrambling to come up with the equipment needed to cover all our needs right now. Now due to this uncertainty in the railroads I know my company's customers that receive via rail and us are asking if we can deliver more for them. If we can we are. But a nationwide strike at this time would not benefit anyone. Then throw in a low reserve of fuel in fuel oils of all types as of today it's less than 20 day's worth at current demand and if we get a disruption in supplies areas of the nation could actually run out of fuel.
Convicted One In illustration, back when there were 30 class ones, it might have been more crucial to retain the best qualified employees, because they could usually walk across town and go to work for your competitor, if they were unhappy. Now with the way things are, employees have fewer options, and would customarily have to move to a new town to work for a different railroad.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingProbably not a fair comparison, as I think that today's railroads- and most big corporations- aren't that interested retaining their best qualified employees. They just want trainable bodies that they can interchange like cogs in a machine. They're not a lot different than Burger King in that respect.
Not to mention that new employees are cheaper than old heads...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
When I hired out in the 70’s it was possible to mark off sick, even when being called to work, without any repercussions. Of course this was unpaid time off. Worker abuse of this and the thinning of the worker’s ranks led to this being restricted severely, as it is today.
Now not only do you not get paid but can also be fired for even legitimate sick time.
Euclid It is short sighted to grab all the profit at the expense of maintaining the plant.
A point that's been made here many times. If, as an investor, you are in it for short term gain, you don't care about what happens after you've pulled your personal profit.
And that's the issue with the "activist investors." Get control of the company, milk it for all they can, then bail.
We seem to forget that mutual funds are, by far, the largest investors. And the pension funds that we rely upon at retirement time are the largest participants.
diningcarWe seem to forget that mutual funds are, by far, the largest investors. And the pension funds that we rely upon at retirement time are the largest participants.
You make that point a number of times, and while valid on the surface, it is a bit misleading.
True, on the very end are Ma and Pa Kettle, trying to survive on a modest retirement account that they paid into over a life time. What your analogies seem to overlook is all the well compensated admins at those pension and mutual funds, and their overhead. The well compensated stock brokers who turn the transactions, as well as the investment bankers who rake in the rewards for their "risk". All the fat cat middlemen. When I lament about the impact of the "Wall Street" burden, it really isn't Ma and Pa Kettle that I see as the problem.
I think it would be interesting to see a "current ratio" type metric that accounts for how big a slice of each revenue dollar goes to the fat cats in between the man with his hand on the throttle, and your sacred retirees .
I suspect it would be an eye opener just how big a share the fat cats in the middle keep for themselves.
tree68 Euclid It is short sighted to grab all the profit at the expense of maintaining the plant. A point that's been made here many times. If, as an investor, you are in it for short term gain, you don't care about what happens after you've pulled your personal profit. And that's the issue with the "activist investors." Get control of the company, milk it for all they can, then bail.
In that case, the government will step in and enforce that obligation, thus preventing the company from completely destroying itself, or just running itself down to the point of not complying with the common carrier obligation. It sounds like we may be near that point right now. In any case, the shippers will press this point, not the railroad unions.
Anyone who has ever worked for a living can understand that its not JUST about the money. Likely people who have never had any representation at all can understand it better, even, than those who have had nothing but representation. For some, particularly for those employed by large companies where the power dynamic is in the companies' favor, unions provide a real benefit, and even for the employer they provide structure (greivance procedures etc) that might otherwise not be present or as well thought out. For employees of small typical family businesses which are the mainstay of the economy there's also power in numbers.. the power of SMALL numbers. If you're a typical worker employed by a typical small employer of ten employees, then you represent 10% of that employer's workforce. That fact alone provides the employee much more power than/he or she would have at a large Fortune 100 company. Now, if that employee is also skilled and reliable the power dynamic shifts markedly in the employee's favor. But I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't understand its not just about the money, especially in this rough and tumble industry where two weekends at home in a month is considered a balanced lifestyle..
Ulrich... But I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't understand its not just about the money, especially in this rough and tumble industry where two weekends at home in a month is considered a balanced lifestyle..
But I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't understand its not just about the money, especially in this rough and tumble industry where two weekends at home in a month is considered a balanced lifestyle..
And those two weekends don't line up with the shared custody agreement for the kids.
Exactly..two circles.. one contains employers' responsibilites/expectations and another represents employees' responsibilities/expectations.. where ever we have overlap is the sweet zone.. got to love Venn Diagrams..
The process isn't on hold. Unions are voting on the proposed settlement. Once all that is done, it will move onto the next phase.
Last I read about (T&E side), is the unions/carriers/lawyers just finished up the Q and A portion for the new agreement. Ballots are supposed to go out on about Oct 31st, and be tabulated by Nov. 20th.
Edit: from SMART:
https://smart-union.org/tentative-agreement-documents-released/
"52% of International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers members who voted approved their deal, seven railroad unions have ratified contracts that include 24% raises and $5,000 in bonuses, but all 12 have to approve contracts to prevent a strike." [Chicago Tribune, 11/6]
I suspect the final unions to approve figure they get get more of what they want as the push will be on to just get everything finally settled. Since they held off any work action until after the election, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some polictical pressure to see they are rewarded in some way.
alphas I suspect the final unions to approve figure they get get more of what they want as the push will be on to just get everything finally settled. Since they held off any work action until after the election, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some polictical pressure to see they are rewarded in some way.
The ATDA has a "me too" clause in their contract. If, say the BLE gets 2 more personal days, that agreement will snap back to the ATDA.
I think some of the other groups have that in their contract agreements, but I am not 100% positive on that.
An "expensive model collector"
UTU ballot has arrived. Voting to be done via phone as in the past. Last day is 11/20 w/results said to be released the following day. This is the wk leading into Thanksgiving and beginning of Peak Season. Could becoming interesting.
With the carrier wishing to make major changes to how condr pool boards operate, this guy is voting NO on the contract. Wishing not to work on a progresssive/self sustaining board where layoffs are covered by the board itself, everyone takes a step up and the extra board does not cover the layoff. Nonsense, want no part of it. Another way to reduce job slots.
Sam from Wichita
We're actually starting to add more assigned road jobs back. Not anyhwere near where we used to be, but it;s a start. They're doing two-sided jobs with call windows. Used to be 3 sided which meant all days were covered. Now 1-2 trips a week will have to be covered by general pools/extras.
Does allow for the crews to get 2-3 days off, but they'll be turning and burning up until those days off.
The 3 sided pools you had every third day off, so you didn't have a long weekend, but more time off between jobs.
FWIW, I vote yes. We're not going to get anything better, Could end up with just the PEB recommendations without the few additional extras (The Burr-Wicker bill is tabled. Without amendments it just imposes the PEB conditions.) and are going to get Self-supporting Pools, Automated Electronic Bidding, etc. no matter if it passes or fails. Those items are tabled in both the PEB and TA for negotiation and binding arbitraition, which is saying the carriers will get what they want.
Some places already have both items in place. We don't in my area, but we have a form of self-supporting pools in that when the extra board is exhausted, the next available turn gets called. The unavailable turns stay in their board position until either an extra board person can take out the turn or the turn marks back up. Twice this week I've went around 4 or 5 unavailable turns. The difference is in how the self-supporting concept works as opposed to our current situation.
With the current situation, a single mark off can lead to a few days off when the turn is taken out of town by the extra board. Simply put, the self supporting pool results in the turn's owner becoming marked back up, at the bottom of the board if the turn has left town, when their lay off, usually 24 hours, is over. When things are slow that could have a single 24 hour lay off getting 3, 4 or even 5 days off. Guaranteed boards only get docked for the 24 hour lay off. It's easy to see why the railroads want it, less guarantee to be paid and less active employees collecting benefits - guarantee or not.
Jeff
If the vote fails to pass, when would the strike occur?
What is the typical timing on these votes?Ed
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