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Another union rejects proposed contract

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Another union rejects proposed contract
Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, October 27, 2022 11:32 AM

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/second-railroad-union-rejects-paid-sick-time-deal-adding-to-strike-worries

The Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen said nearly 61 percent of the workers who voted opposed the five-year contract even though it included 24 percent raises and $5,000 in bonuses. It is the second rail union to reject a deal this month.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, October 27, 2022 12:27 PM

Contrcts involve much more than money.  Those outside the Unions can ONLY understand the money, not all the other issuses that cause contracts to be rejected.  Thusly, outsiders have no idea what the real points of conflict are.

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Posted by Convicted One on Thursday, October 27, 2022 1:48 PM

Do you think that the consolidation that has gone on in the industry the past 60 years has given the handful of major players that survive, excess bargaining power?

 

In illustration, back when there were 30 class ones, it might have been more crucial to retain the best qualified employees, because they could usually walk across town and go to work for your competitor, if they were unhappy.  Now with the way things are, employees have fewer options, and would customarily have to move to a new town to work for a different railroad.

 

Additionally, with so many competing entities, the opportunity to grasp business from a competitor was greater back then,  so it paid to keep "extra ponies" in the stable, just in case they were needed. In today's environment, things are more predictable.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, October 27, 2022 2:43 PM

BaltACD

Contrcts involve much more than money.  Those outside the Unions can ONLY understand the money, not all the other issuses that cause contracts to be rejected.  Thusly, outsiders have no idea what the real points of conflict are.

 

Maybe part of the problem is just that, the attitude that nobody outside can understand. If these workers are to achieve their goals, they need support from broader public.  Perhaps better PR is needed. The signalmen's union president's statement is a step in the right direction: "Union President Michael Baldwin said the “lack of good-faith bargaining” by the railroads and the recommendations of a board of arbitrators that President Joe Biden appointed this summer denied workers the “basic right of paid time off for illness.”."

C.O.  Consolidation from 30 to 6 gave the rails much more power in negotiations.

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, October 27, 2022 2:53 PM

Convicted One
  Now with the way things are, employees have fewer options, and would customarily have to move to a new town to work for a different railroad.

I suspect many of the people that are looking for a new job (or may be looking) are fully prepared to leave the industry. 

The RR industry's carrot has been shrinking for a while now. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, October 27, 2022 3:04 PM

Duplicate

 

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, October 27, 2022 3:47 PM

charlie hebdo
The signalmen's union president's statement is a step in the right direction: "Union President Michael Baldwin said the “lack of good-faith bargaining” by the railroads and the recommendations of a board of arbitrators that President Joe Biden appointed this summer denied workers the “basic right of paid time off for illness.”."

 

It may be a baby step in the right direction.  Where is it established that it is a basic right to receive paid time off for illness?  Was there once a provision in the contract to take unlimited paid days off for illness?

I have suggested many times here that the issues are not being explained to the public, and that that would be a great oportunity to get more traction and support for Labor's case.  But I am told that such an explanaton is not possible because only those directly affected by the problem can understand it.  

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, October 27, 2022 4:54 PM

Euclid
 
charlie hebdo
The signalmen's union president's statement is a step in the right direction: "Union President Michael Baldwin said the “lack of good-faith bargaining” by the railroads and the recommendations of a board of arbitrators that President Joe Biden appointed this summer denied workers the “basic right of paid time off for illness.”." 

It may be a baby step in the right direction.  Where is it established that it is a basic right to receive paid time off for illness?  Was there once a provision in the contract to take unlimited paid days off for illness?

I have suggested many times here that the issues are not being explained to the public, and that that would be a great oportunity to get more traction and support for Labor's case.  But I am told that such an explanaton is not possible because only those directly affected by the problem can understand it.  

Can't speak to other craft's contracts.  Under the ATDA contract when I had Colon Cancer in 1996, the contract, in accordance with my 31 years of service at that point in time, allowed for full pay for 30 days, 3/4 pay for another 30 days and 1/2 pay for a further 30 days.  Differences between full and reduced levels were to be supplemented by Railroad Retirement Unemployment benefits.  I entered the hospital on July 9 and returned to work after Labor Day. 

The ATDA contract with my level of seniority allowed 30 days of 'Sick Leave' per year that would be rolled over for a maximum of three years - thus with my 30+ years of Seniority and not having taken prior sick days - at the time of my illness I had 90 days of sickness benefits available to me.  For employees with less seniority there were steps to accrue the upto 30 days sick leave per year.

Of course all this took place in time where the 'Us v Them' animosity was at a lower level than currently exists with the PSR Band banging the drums and playing their 76 trombones for their big parade to crush the crafts.

As has been illuminated by Zug and Jeff Hergert - the carriers are using 'approval' tactics to intimidate employees in their crafts from utilizing the benefits of sick and/or personal time provisions that exist in their contracts.

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Thursday, October 27, 2022 5:51 PM

I can tell you this much.  Right now my industry is starting to prepare for the holiday peak rush season.  We're scrambling to come up with the equipment needed to cover all our needs right now.  Now due to this uncertainty in the railroads I know my company's customers that receive via rail and us are asking if we can deliver more for them.  If we can we are.  But a nationwide strike at this time would not benefit anyone.  Then throw in a low reserve of fuel in fuel oils of all types as of today it's less than 20 day's worth at current demand and if we get a disruption in supplies areas of the nation could actually run out of fuel.  

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 27, 2022 10:45 PM

Convicted One

 

 

In illustration, back when there were 30 class ones, it might have been more crucial to retain the best qualified employees, because they could usually walk across town and go to work for your competitor, if they were unhappy.  Now with the way things are, employees have fewer options, and would customarily have to move to a new town to work for a different railroad.

 

 

 

Probably not a fair comparison, as I think that today's railroads- and most big corporations- aren't that interested retaining their best qualified employees. They just want trainable bodies that they can interchange like cogs in a machine. They're not a lot different than Burger King in that respect.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, October 27, 2022 10:52 PM

Murphy Siding
Probably not a fair comparison, as I think that today's railroads- and most big corporations- aren't that interested retaining their best qualified employees. They just want trainable bodies that they can interchange like cogs in a machine. They're not a lot different than Burger King in that respect.

Not to mention that new employees are cheaper than old heads...

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Posted by mvlandsw on Friday, October 28, 2022 12:51 AM

When I hired out in the 70’s it was possible to mark off sick, even when being called to work, without any repercussions. Of course this was unpaid time off. Worker abuse of this and the thinning of the worker’s ranks led to this being restricted severely, as it is today.

Now not only do you not get paid but can also be fired for even legitimate sick time.

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, October 28, 2022 10:43 AM
Every business requires plowing profits back into it in order to maintain and improve the plant.  It is short sighted to grab all the profit at the expense of maintaining the plant.  Part of maintaining the plant is maintaining the labor force.  If the railroads are cutting expenses to the bone to grab the most profit, they will be unable to meet customer demand for shipping.  But they are protected from repercussions from customers because there is little competition giving customers an alternate choice for transportation.  So nothing stands in the way of hollowing out the company until it is depleted. 
 
However, there just happens to be one point of leverage available to stop this destructive cost reduction.  That is the customers complaining to the Government about railroads failing to meet their Common Carrier Obligation, which is imposed by Government.   
 
This obligation is borne by railroad management, and if they refuse to accept it, the Government must step in and replace current private management, or take some kind of punitive action such as fining the railroads for delaying transportation due to insufficient workforce, or imposing new regulations.   Here is an article in Freight Waves:
 
What does the common carrier obligation mean for U.S. railroads?
 
Here is the definition of the common carrier obligation: 
 
“a rail carrier providing transportation or service subject to the jurisdiction of the [Surface Transportation Board] under this part shall provide the transportation or service on reasonable request.”
 
The only question is what “reasonable” means, and the linked article goes into that point.   
 
So, shippers are calling for the common carrier obligation to be re-defined to make it clear what “reasonable” means.  As it presently stands, the common carrier obligation has no teeth for its enforcement because the meaning of “reasonable” is unclear.
 
Therefore, if this common carrier obligation is clarified, shippers can use it to force railroads to maintain the plant to the point where meeting the common carrier obligation is possible.  So if the railroads don’t have enough employees, they will be forced by Government to hire more of them.  The Government can also step in and directly mandate things such as employee benefits, working conditions, and limits on train length.
 
The Government will no doubt consider mandating any technology or practice that they believe will speed up rail transportation. 
 
In short, the Common Carrier Obligation is the one firewall that stops the railroad companies and their investors from depleting the companies by grabbing all the profits and not investing in maintaining the plant and human resources.   
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Posted by tree68 on Friday, October 28, 2022 11:49 AM

Euclid
It is short sighted to grab all the profit at the expense of maintaining the plant. 

A point that's been made here many times.  If, as an investor, you are in it for short term gain, you don't care about what happens after you've pulled your personal profit.  

And that's the issue with the "activist investors."  Get control of the company, milk it for all they can, then bail.

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Posted by diningcar on Friday, October 28, 2022 12:12 PM

We seem to forget that mutual funds are, by far, the largest investors. And the pension funds that we rely upon at retirement time are the largest participants.

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Posted by Convicted One on Friday, October 28, 2022 12:46 PM

diningcar
We seem to forget that mutual funds are, by far, the largest investors. And the pension funds that we rely upon at retirement time are the largest participants.

 

You make that point a number of times, and while valid on the surface, it is a bit misleading.

True, on the very end are Ma and Pa Kettle, trying to survive on a modest retirement account that they paid into over a life time. What your analogies seem to overlook is all the well compensated admins at those pension  and mutual funds, and their overhead. The well compensated stock brokers who turn the transactions, as well as the investment bankers who rake in the rewards for their "risk".   All the fat cat middlemen.    When I lament about the impact of the "Wall Street"  burden, it really isn't Ma and Pa Kettle that I see as the problem.

I think it would be interesting to see a "current ratio" type metric that accounts for how big a slice of each revenue dollar goes to the fat cats in between the man with his hand on the throttle, and your sacred retirees .

I suspect it would be an eye opener just  how big a share the fat cats in the middle keep for themselves. 

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, October 28, 2022 1:07 PM

tree68

 

 
Euclid
It is short sighted to grab all the profit at the expense of maintaining the plant. 

A point that's been made here many times.  If, as an investor, you are in it for short term gain, you don't care about what happens after you've pulled your personal profit.  

And that's the issue with the "activist investors."  Get control of the company, milk it for all they can, then bail.

If that is happening, I have yet to hear any proposal for a way to stop it.  I assume that it is not illegal, so there would be no way to prevent it.  However, it can be legally limited if it goes too far; to the point of weakening a railroad by interfering with the company’s common carrier obligation.
 

In that case, the government will step in and enforce that obligation, thus preventing the company from completely destroying itself, or just running itself down to the point of not complying with the common carrier obligation.  It sounds like we may be near that point right now.  In any case, the shippers will press this point, not the railroad unions.

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Posted by Ulrich on Friday, October 28, 2022 1:52 PM

Anyone who has ever worked for a living can understand that its not JUST about the money. Likely people who have never had any representation at all can understand it better, even, than those who have had nothing but representation. For some, particularly for those employed by large companies where the power dynamic is in the companies' favor, unions provide a real benefit, and even for the employer they provide structure (greivance procedures etc) that might otherwise not be present or as well thought out. For employees of small typical family businesses which are the mainstay of the economy there's also power in numbers.. the power of SMALL numbers. If you're a typical worker employed by a typical small employer of ten employees, then you represent 10% of that employer's workforce. That fact alone provides the employee much more power than/he or she would have at a large Fortune 100 company. Now, if that employee is also skilled and reliable the power dynamic shifts markedly in the employee's favor. But I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't understand its not just about the money, especially in this rough and tumble industry where two weekends at home in a month is considered a balanced lifestyle.. 

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, October 28, 2022 2:00 PM

Ulrich
...

But I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't understand its not just about the money, especially in this rough and tumble industry where two weekends at home in a month is considered a balanced lifestyle.. 

And those two weekends don't line up with the shared custody agreement for the kids.

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Posted by Ulrich on Friday, October 28, 2022 2:06 PM

Exactly..two circles.. one contains employers' responsibilites/expectations and another represents employees' responsibilities/expectations.. where ever we have overlap is the sweet zone.. got to love Venn Diagrams.. 

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, October 29, 2022 9:18 AM
When will this dispute be resolved?  Will there be a strike, a stopping of the strike, and a Government imposed settlement?
 
It is not clear to me why this process was put on hold until after the election.  Whose decision was that?  It would seem especially desirable to resolve it as soon as possible in order to get the supply chain up to speed before the shopping season. 
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Posted by adkrr64 on Saturday, October 29, 2022 12:07 PM

The process isn't on hold. Unions are voting on the proposed settlement. Once all that is done, it will move onto the next phase. 

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, October 29, 2022 12:10 PM

Last I read about (T&E side), is the unions/carriers/lawyers just finished up the Q and A portion for the new agreement.  Ballots are supposed to go out on about Oct 31st, and be tabulated by Nov. 20th. 

Edit: from  SMART:

https://smart-union.org/tentative-agreement-documents-released/

 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, November 6, 2022 3:39 PM

"52% of International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers members who voted approved their deal, seven railroad unions have ratified contracts that include 24% raises and $5,000 in bonuses, but all 12 have to approve contracts to prevent a strike." [Chicago Tribune, 11/6]

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Posted by alphas on Monday, November 7, 2022 10:06 PM

I suspect the final unions to approve figure they get get more of what they want as the push will be on to just get everything finally settled.    Since they held off any work action until after the election, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some polictical pressure to see they are rewarded in some way.

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, November 8, 2022 10:08 AM

alphas

I suspect the final unions to approve figure they get get more of what they want as the push will be on to just get everything finally settled.    Since they held off any work action until after the election, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some polictical pressure to see they are rewarded in some way.

 

 

The ATDA has a "me too" clause in their contract.  If, say the BLE gets 2 more personal days, that agreement will snap back to the ATDA.

 

I think some of the other groups have that in their contract agreements, but I am not 100% positive on that.

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Posted by SFbrkmn on Wednesday, November 9, 2022 12:23 PM

UTU ballot has arrived. Voting to be done via phone as in the past. Last day is 11/20 w/results said to be released the following day. This is the wk leading into Thanksgiving and beginning of Peak Season. Could becoming interesting.

With the carrier wishing to make major changes to how condr pool boards operate, this guy is voting NO on the contract. Wishing not to work on a progresssive/self sustaining board where layoffs are covered by the board itself, everyone takes a step up and the extra board does not cover the layoff. Nonsense, want no part of it. Another way to reduce job slots.

Sam from Wichita 

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, November 10, 2022 11:51 AM

We're actually starting to add more assigned road jobs back.  Not anyhwere near where we used to be, but it;s a start.  They're doing two-sided jobs with call windows.  Used to be 3 sided which meant all days were covered.  Now 1-2 trips a week will have to be covered by general pools/extras. 

Does allow for the crews to get 2-3 days off, but they'll be turning and burning up until those days off.  

The 3 sided pools you had every third day off, so you didn't have a long weekend, but more time off between jobs. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, November 10, 2022 1:45 PM

FWIW, I vote yes.  We're not going to get anything better, Could end up with just the PEB recommendations without the few additional extras (The Burr-Wicker bill is tabled.  Without amendments it just imposes the PEB conditions.) and are going to get Self-supporting Pools, Automated Electronic Bidding, etc. no matter if it passes or fails.  Those items are tabled in both the PEB and TA for negotiation and binding arbitraition, which is saying the carriers will get what they want.

Some places already have both items in place.  We don't in my area, but we have a form of self-supporting pools in that when the extra board is exhausted, the next available turn gets called.  The unavailable turns stay in their board position until either an extra board person can take out the turn or the turn marks back up.  Twice this week I've went around 4 or 5 unavailable turns.  The difference is in how the self-supporting concept works as opposed to our current situation. 

With the current situation, a single mark off can lead to a few days off when the turn is taken out of town by the extra board.  Simply put, the self supporting pool results in the turn's owner becoming marked back up, at the bottom of the board if the turn has left town, when their lay off, usually 24 hours, is over.  When things are slow that could have a single 24 hour lay off getting 3, 4 or even 5 days off.  Guaranteed boards only get docked for the 24 hour lay off.  It's easy to see why the railroads want it, less guarantee to be paid and less active employees collecting benefits - guarantee or not.

Jeff    

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Posted by MP173 on Friday, November 11, 2022 2:29 PM

If the vote fails to pass, when would the strike occur?  

What is the typical timing on these votes?

Ed

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