I'll start off by saying that I know absolutely nothing about trains or how they transport product.
Is there a way for a railcar to transport stone from a quarry to a jobsite that has train tracks running to it? I believe at one point logs were loaded at this site, but it is basically a flat piece of land with a rail that dead ends in the middle of it.
Is it possible or economical to transport from a quarry that is approximately 100 miles away to this location if they have the means to load the train cars? How would that process work?
AgentIndianTaco Is there a way for a railcar to transport stone from a quarry to a jobsite that has train tracks running to it? Is it possible or economical to transport from a quarry that is approximately 100 miles away to this location if they have the means to load the train cars?
Is it possible or economical to transport from a quarry that is approximately 100 miles away to this location if they have the means to load the train cars?
I don't work for a railroad; in fact, I am retired from the electric utility industry, and I don't work period.
Yesterday, I saw a BNSF train with nearly 100 condola cars loaded with gravel, stone, etc. rolling through Temple, TX.
I don't know where the train originated, but I believe it was headed to Texas Materials siding near Giddings, TX. Trucks will haul the stuff from Texas Mateials to various sites in central Texas.
Now for my question. The gondola cars did not appear to be rotary cars. How would they be unloaded?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
AgentIndianTacoI'll start off by saying that I know absolutely nothing about trains or how they transport product. Is there a way for a railcar to transport stone from a quarry to a jobsite that has train tracks running to it? I believe at one point logs were loaded at this site, but it is basically a flat piece of land with a rail that dead ends in the middle of it. Is it possible or economical to transport from a quarry that is approximately 100 miles away to this location if they have the means to load the train cars? How would that process work?
Retired from CSX almost 6 years ago.
On my territory there were (and still are) a number of 'Rock Runner' operations. There is one between the quarry at Millville, WV and Bladensburg, MD which operates on a daily and some times twice a day basis. Then there is another Rock Runner that originates from Bittenger Quarry near Hanover, PA and 'peddles' rock to customers at Westport (Baltimore) and Fort Meade Jct. MD. Loads come from the quarry at night and the empties move back to the quarry during daylight hours. These Rock Runner operations have been operating for decades on the Baltimore Division of CSX.
Nominally each CSX division has one or more quarry operations located on their lines. The operation of scheduled 'rock runners' is more dependent on a customer that can continuously handle the loads that a quarry can generate.
Most all on line quarries load company ballast trains from time to time.
Welcome to the forums.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
More years than I will reveal SOU RR had a ramp track that allowed rock to be dropped directly into trucks. Used idler cars to place cars.Cannot remember but was room at least for 2 cars.
AgentIndianTaco: If the destination is on a rail siding; The next quesion is volumn need.... Contact the railroad, and request a salesman to conact. That person will answer your questions....for a car load or a train(s)? If yopu got a big enough need, and the wearwithall$$$$$
The railroad will probably, fill your needs.... P.S. To the Forum
CSX was unable to deliver enough ballast to Brightline on time for Brightline's 2 main tracks on FEC and the Brightline Cocoa - MCO route. Brightline had to import Ballast from Canada by ship(s) to make up the shot fall caused by CSX's unwilliness to deliver the needed Ballast.
CN does a couple short haul unit aggregate trains in my area (60 to 100 cars per train, distance of between 150 and 200 miles one way). These runs have been operating for decades but they have also done short-term operations (i.e. only for months at a time) to different destinations farther away.
Unloading will probably be an issue, while side-dump cars do exist most railroads don't use them in revenue service (ours are all assigned to and perhaps owned by the track maintenance department) and they have a lower capacity per car than hoppers. The most common types of cars in gravel/stone service are hoppers with bottom doors, so you'd need to build a unloading pit on your track in order to receive them.
I've also seen bulk commodities like gravel or coal get shipped in gondolas, but they must be unloaded by scooping the product out of the car with an excavator, a labourious and time-consuming process. This might end up being the best option for you if this is a short-term project and you have lots of construction equipment already onsite. CN's actually doing another short-term short-haul aggregate move in northeastern BC (for the Site C hydro dam project) right now with gondolas.
The Class I's also might not be prepared to supply you with cars (they don't like doing customer service stuff anymore), so you may have to lease your own cars from an outfit like Trinity or CIT Financial, there are a number of rail equipment leasing companies out there, those two just came to mind.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Depending on which railroad you're on, they may not be interested at all. Even if you supplied the cars.
Hopefully you're on a short lines or regional railroad. And the move doesn't involve more than one railroad.
Jeff
PJS1Now for my question. The gondola cars did not appear to be rotary cars. How would they be unloaded?
Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlS7aG5m7J0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To69Y2s0EnQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdeaXBoNFJg
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
cv_acr,
Fantastic! Thanks for the links. Presumably, the excavator cannot get everything. Does someone with a shovel get the remainder or do they just leave it?
PJS1cv_acr, Fantastic! Thanks for the links. Presumably, the excavator cannot get everything. Does someone with a shovel get the remainder or do they just leave it?
Remember in car load billing - weight is carried to the nearest 100 pounds, so getting a car CLEAN clean isn't that exacting.
PJS1 Does someone with a shovel get the remainder or do they just leave it?
Before the advent of self-unloaders on the Great Lakes, a front loader would be lowered into the hold to get what the Hulett's couldn't, and I'm pretty sure people with brooms made an appearance as well.
I would suppose it would depend on what the owner of the car expected if the car isn't in captive service. OTOH, the cars still looked pretty clean.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Some Great Lakes self-unloaders still use front end loaders. Especially those that maximize cubic capacity by not having sloped sides (I believe a few with conventional sloped sides do from time to time, if the tunnel gates are wide enough to maneuver on). Some even have a garage where they're parked down in the hold.
The new M/V Mark W. Barker for instance does this. You can also see the door to the garage open in this video where the vehicles are stored when not in use.
https://youtu.be/UtLU55Kyip4?t=156
And another video showing them in action on the John D. Leitch
https://youtu.be/tuyXKZO-sIo?t=88
Bulk freighters - Great Lakes and Ocean going haul whatever bulk loads their owners can find. Aggregate this trip, wheat next trip, coal, soybeans and on and on. Deck crews on bulker are responsible for cleaning holds between cargos, especially when the commodities change from trip to trip to prevent cargo contanimation.
If the vessel is hauling the same cargo trip after trip, the cleaning need not be as through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is4cqxLM-N4
It used to be easy to clean a self-unloader. Open a gate and brush all the loose coal or whatever down onto the conveyer, rotate the boom to one side, and then fire up the belt to dump the debris overboard so it doesn't contaminate your next cargo.
Now it's hard work with buckets, shovels, and ropes since it's frowned upon to do it the old way even even if it's just stone or iron ore.
Why don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock?
MidlandMikeWhy don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock?
That is a maritime question. Suspect there are regulations in ports about discharging 'waste water' into the port waters.
BaltACD MidlandMike Why don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock? That is a maritime question. Suspect there are regulations in ports about discharging 'waste water' into the port waters.
MidlandMike Why don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock?
What I meant was that they could have pushed the clean-up fragments into the conveyor and into the pile they just unloaded onto the dock.
MidlandMike BaltACD MidlandMike Why don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock? That is a maritime question. Suspect there are regulations in ports about discharging 'waste water' into the port waters. What I meant was that they could have pushed the clean-up fragments into the conveyor and into the pile they just unloaded onto the dock.
How a ship performs its functions is under the control and authority of the Captain.
Sitting costs money.
A thorough cleaning when switching cargoes takes a while (especially if your next load is going to be grain). So it's traditionally done while underway.
While there's tons of variables like the length of the run and how often you're changing the type of cargo you're carrying, the savings could conceivably enable an extra load per season for an example.
Moving rock by rail is a fairly common thing. There are plenty of places where aggregate does not exist in sufficient quantity to supply local needs (like Denver, Eastern Colorado, Western Kansas)...has to come from somewhere.
OP has never heard of a Georgetown (GREX) Dump Train?
BaltACDHow a ship performs its functions is under the control and authority of the Captain.
He still has to observe maritime, environmental, and other laws.
Leo_Ames Sitting costs money. A thorough cleaning when switching cargoes takes a while (especially if your next load is going to be grain). So it's traditionally done while underway. While there's tons of variables like the length of the run and how often you're changing the type of cargo you're carrying, the savings could conceivably enable an extra load per season for an example.
What happens to the cleanout material when done under way? Is it collected and returned to commerce, or is it dumped over the side. Even stone dumped over the side will cover the bottom lands environment, burying bottom dwellers and covering habitat, affecting natural water cleaners, sport and commercial fisheries.
It's never dumped over the side anymore.
I'm not sure if it's even the EPA and such behind it when it's something benign like limestone. Great Lakes fleets want to be good neighbors and take care of the Great Lakes. A zero dumping policy, no matter if it's the voluntary decision of the fleet bosses or the US/Canadian governments, helps make sure that something that actually is harmful doesn't ever end up disposed of carelessly over the side.
The debris is collected and disposed of properly at the next port of call. We're talking about several bucketfuls of material when all is said and done. All the loose taconite for the heaviest/densest example is only going to add up to a few hundred pounds. Not very much and nothing that the customer is going to miss.
They lose far more than that just from the normal handling of the cargo.
I laugh, because in the old days things were so different. NO EPA. And while progress has to change some bad habits we all have had.
One retired RR man I knew said they spotted hopper cars on bridges across the the river and dumped "clean out" there. endmrw0918221125
Leo_AmesThey lose far more than that just from the normal handling of the cargo.
One can find taconite pellets on the ballast near the diamond in Deshler.
I would opine that aggregates would be relatively benign if dumped overboard. Another common commodity handled by some lakers is salt - not a dangerous chemical, but certainly would affect the area where it was dumped until it all dissolved. Taconite not so much, I would think.
There are spots on a paved walking/biking trail I frequent in Michigan when I visit where it appears that taconite (or something similar) may have gotten mixed into the aggregate used in the asphalt. You'll see rust trails from those spots.
The SS Badger had to be reconfigured so it did not dump the ashes from the coal-fired boiler into Lake Michigan. Even so, there must be a pretty significant trail of such residue on the bottom along the regular ferry routes.
One might squint at my avatar and see ramps are not required.
Another method not mentioned (or I missed it) is using open top hoppers. Agregate is unloaded via the hopper into an elevator to lift it back up to dump into a truck. One is specially made with a square 4'x6' reciever box that is slid under the hopper gate. This reduces labor to a truckdriver.
tree68 Leo_Ames They lose far more than that just from the normal handling of the cargo. One can find taconite pellets on the ballast near the diamond in Deshler. I would opine that aggregates would be relatively benign if dumped overboard. Another common commodity handled by some lakers is salt - not a dangerous chemical, but certainly would affect the area where it was dumped until it all dissolved. Taconite not so much, I would think. There are spots on a paved walking/biking trail I frequent in Michigan when I visit where it appears that taconite (or something similar) may have gotten mixed into the aggregate used in the asphalt. You'll see rust trails from those spots. The SS Badger had to be reconfigured so it did not dump the ashes from the coal-fired boiler into Lake Michigan. Even so, there must be a pretty significant trail of such residue on the bottom along the regular ferry routes.
Leo_Ames They lose far more than that just from the normal handling of the cargo.
re: SS Badger
The Battle for the Badger
Sailors roll Ships in inaugural
https://www.nbc26.com/manitowoc/manitowoc-lincoln-football-team-sets-sail-on-ss-badger-car-ferry-to-play-michigan-high-school
tree68There are spots on a paved walking/biking trail I frequent in Michigan when I visit where it appears that taconite (or something similar) may have gotten mixed into the aggregate used in the asphalt. You'll see rust trails from those spots. ...
The glacial deposits in Michigan have scattered iron-rich stones which wind up in gravel aggragate sometimes used in concrete.
Anyone else think those excavators are painfully slow to unload? Looks like about 50-60 minutes to unload a single gondola. Seems like a lot of labor and capital cost for the value of the load. It makes sense if it's just a temporary expediant but I don't think it's viable as a long-term solution.
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