rixflix Aggregate and cement kept Washington & Old Dominion alive until Dulles Airport was completed. Then poof, bye-bye railroad. Rick
Aggregate and cement kept Washington & Old Dominion alive until Dulles Airport was completed. Then poof, bye-bye railroad.
Rick
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
BaltACDMost aggregrate shipments are of a temporary nature - building some facility that requires quantities of aggregate in its construction - it could be buildings, highways, bridges or dams. Once the project is completed, they is no longer a need for aggregate at that location any longer.
Doh! Thanks, that makes perfect sense. I live in an area where quarries are commonplace so I had tunnel vision thinking about it from the source and not the end user. I have seen quarries using front-end loaders to load trains so I guess I also had that on the brain as well.
Overmod tree68 Grew up in SE MI. Always considered iron a UP thing... Better call it a 'Yooper' thing. There are people here who will be wondering what the Union Pacific has to do with it...
tree68 Grew up in SE MI. Always considered iron a UP thing...
Better call it a 'Yooper' thing. There are people here who will be wondering what the Union Pacific has to do with it...
True that...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68Grew up in SE MI. Always considered iron a UP thing...
BaltACD MidlandMike Why don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock? That is a maritime question. Suspect there are regulations in ports about discharging 'waste water' into the port waters.
MidlandMike Why don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock?
That is a maritime question. Suspect there are regulations in ports about discharging 'waste water' into the port waters.
That's how you get things like zebra mussels, so yes very controlled.
MidlandMikeThe glacial deposits in Michigan have scattered iron-rich stones which wind up in gravel aggragate sometimes used in concrete.
No question. Does seem funny to see rust streaks on the pavement, though.
Grew up in SE MI. Always considered iron a UP thing...
MJ4562Anyone else think those excavators are painfully slow to unload? Looks like about 50-60 minutes to unload a single gondola. Seems like a lot of labor and capital cost for the value of the load. It makes sense if it's just a temporary expediant but I don't think it's viable as a long-term solution.
Most aggregrate shipments are of a temporary nature - building some facility that requires quantities of aggregate in its construction - it could be buildings, highways, bridges or dams. Once the project is completed, they is no longer a need for aggregate at that location any longer.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Anyone else think those excavators are painfully slow to unload? Looks like about 50-60 minutes to unload a single gondola. Seems like a lot of labor and capital cost for the value of the load. It makes sense if it's just a temporary expediant but I don't think it's viable as a long-term solution.
tree68There are spots on a paved walking/biking trail I frequent in Michigan when I visit where it appears that taconite (or something similar) may have gotten mixed into the aggregate used in the asphalt. You'll see rust trails from those spots. ...
The glacial deposits in Michigan have scattered iron-rich stones which wind up in gravel aggragate sometimes used in concrete.
tree68 Leo_Ames They lose far more than that just from the normal handling of the cargo. One can find taconite pellets on the ballast near the diamond in Deshler. I would opine that aggregates would be relatively benign if dumped overboard. Another common commodity handled by some lakers is salt - not a dangerous chemical, but certainly would affect the area where it was dumped until it all dissolved. Taconite not so much, I would think. There are spots on a paved walking/biking trail I frequent in Michigan when I visit where it appears that taconite (or something similar) may have gotten mixed into the aggregate used in the asphalt. You'll see rust trails from those spots. The SS Badger had to be reconfigured so it did not dump the ashes from the coal-fired boiler into Lake Michigan. Even so, there must be a pretty significant trail of such residue on the bottom along the regular ferry routes.
Leo_Ames They lose far more than that just from the normal handling of the cargo.
One can find taconite pellets on the ballast near the diamond in Deshler.
I would opine that aggregates would be relatively benign if dumped overboard. Another common commodity handled by some lakers is salt - not a dangerous chemical, but certainly would affect the area where it was dumped until it all dissolved. Taconite not so much, I would think.
There are spots on a paved walking/biking trail I frequent in Michigan when I visit where it appears that taconite (or something similar) may have gotten mixed into the aggregate used in the asphalt. You'll see rust trails from those spots.
The SS Badger had to be reconfigured so it did not dump the ashes from the coal-fired boiler into Lake Michigan. Even so, there must be a pretty significant trail of such residue on the bottom along the regular ferry routes.
re: SS Badger
The Battle for the Badger
Sailors roll Ships in inaugural
https://www.nbc26.com/manitowoc/manitowoc-lincoln-football-team-sets-sail-on-ss-badger-car-ferry-to-play-michigan-high-school
One might squint at my avatar and see ramps are not required.
Another method not mentioned (or I missed it) is using open top hoppers. Agregate is unloaded via the hopper into an elevator to lift it back up to dump into a truck. One is specially made with a square 4'x6' reciever box that is slid under the hopper gate. This reduces labor to a truckdriver.
Leo_AmesThey lose far more than that just from the normal handling of the cargo.
I laugh, because in the old days things were so different. NO EPA. And while progress has to change some bad habits we all have had.
One retired RR man I knew said they spotted hopper cars on bridges across the the river and dumped "clean out" there. endmrw0918221125
It's never dumped over the side anymore.
I'm not sure if it's even the EPA and such behind it when it's something benign like limestone. Great Lakes fleets want to be good neighbors and take care of the Great Lakes. A zero dumping policy, no matter if it's the voluntary decision of the fleet bosses or the US/Canadian governments, helps make sure that something that actually is harmful doesn't ever end up disposed of carelessly over the side.
The debris is collected and disposed of properly at the next port of call. We're talking about several bucketfuls of material when all is said and done. All the loose taconite for the heaviest/densest example is only going to add up to a few hundred pounds. Not very much and nothing that the customer is going to miss.
They lose far more than that just from the normal handling of the cargo.
Leo_Ames Sitting costs money. A thorough cleaning when switching cargoes takes a while (especially if your next load is going to be grain). So it's traditionally done while underway. While there's tons of variables like the length of the run and how often you're changing the type of cargo you're carrying, the savings could conceivably enable an extra load per season for an example.
Sitting costs money.
A thorough cleaning when switching cargoes takes a while (especially if your next load is going to be grain). So it's traditionally done while underway.
While there's tons of variables like the length of the run and how often you're changing the type of cargo you're carrying, the savings could conceivably enable an extra load per season for an example.
What happens to the cleanout material when done under way? Is it collected and returned to commerce, or is it dumped over the side. Even stone dumped over the side will cover the bottom lands environment, burying bottom dwellers and covering habitat, affecting natural water cleaners, sport and commercial fisheries.
BaltACDHow a ship performs its functions is under the control and authority of the Captain.
He still has to observe maritime, environmental, and other laws.
Moving rock by rail is a fairly common thing. There are plenty of places where aggregate does not exist in sufficient quantity to supply local needs (like Denver, Eastern Colorado, Western Kansas)...has to come from somewhere.
OP has never heard of a Georgetown (GREX) Dump Train?
MidlandMike BaltACD MidlandMike Why don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock? That is a maritime question. Suspect there are regulations in ports about discharging 'waste water' into the port waters. What I meant was that they could have pushed the clean-up fragments into the conveyor and into the pile they just unloaded onto the dock.
What I meant was that they could have pushed the clean-up fragments into the conveyor and into the pile they just unloaded onto the dock.
How a ship performs its functions is under the control and authority of the Captain.
MidlandMikeWhy don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock?
Why don't they do the cleaning while they are still at the unloading dock?
It used to be easy to clean a self-unloader. Open a gate and brush all the loose coal or whatever down onto the conveyer, rotate the boom to one side, and then fire up the belt to dump the debris overboard so it doesn't contaminate your next cargo.
Now it's hard work with buckets, shovels, and ropes since it's frowned upon to do it the old way even even if it's just stone or iron ore.
Bulk freighters - Great Lakes and Ocean going haul whatever bulk loads their owners can find. Aggregate this trip, wheat next trip, coal, soybeans and on and on. Deck crews on bulker are responsible for cleaning holds between cargos, especially when the commodities change from trip to trip to prevent cargo contanimation.
If the vessel is hauling the same cargo trip after trip, the cleaning need not be as through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is4cqxLM-N4
Some Great Lakes self-unloaders still use front end loaders. Especially those that maximize cubic capacity by not having sloped sides (I believe a few with conventional sloped sides do from time to time, if the tunnel gates are wide enough to maneuver on). Some even have a garage where they're parked down in the hold.
The new M/V Mark W. Barker for instance does this. You can also see the door to the garage open in this video where the vehicles are stored when not in use.
https://youtu.be/UtLU55Kyip4?t=156
And another video showing them in action on the John D. Leitch
https://youtu.be/tuyXKZO-sIo?t=88
PJS1 Does someone with a shovel get the remainder or do they just leave it?
Before the advent of self-unloaders on the Great Lakes, a front loader would be lowered into the hold to get what the Hulett's couldn't, and I'm pretty sure people with brooms made an appearance as well.
I would suppose it would depend on what the owner of the car expected if the car isn't in captive service. OTOH, the cars still looked pretty clean.
PJS1cv_acr, Fantastic! Thanks for the links. Presumably, the excavator cannot get everything. Does someone with a shovel get the remainder or do they just leave it?
Fantastic! Thanks for the links. Presumably, the excavator cannot get everything. Does someone with a shovel get the remainder or do they just leave it?
Remember in car load billing - weight is carried to the nearest 100 pounds, so getting a car CLEAN clean isn't that exacting.
cv_acr,
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.