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Central vs Pennsy in Indiana

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 7:58 PM

Convicted One

Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC?   Seems like I recall when Conrail  started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the  west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?

 

I could have elaborated more in my post you were responding to, but the subject of the thread was the lines in Indiana.

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Posted by Gramp on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 1:56 PM

I recall reading in one of the Beebe books about C&EI's Zipper (I think), a pocket named train between Chi and StL. He wrote about the train having to wait at Pana before entering Central's route (trackage) to StL until NYC's posh Limited passed through. The Zipper then followed. 

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 11:17 AM
 

ns145

 

 
SD60MAC9500
 

 

 
Convicted One

Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC?   Seems like I recall when Conrail  started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the  west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?

 

 

 

Yes. Three sections of the NYC St. Louis route is still in operation. One by UP between Pana, IL-East St. Louis. This harkens back to the C&EI. Not sure if this was joint trackage or trackage rights with the Big 4. CSX still operates the Terre Haute to Paris, IL section as well which was a part of the STL main. The other section is a small stretch in Shelbyville, IL operated by the Shelbyville Industrial Railroad.

 
 

 

 

Decatur & Eastern Illinois (DEIR) operates the Terre Haute-Paris line these days.  CSX sold off the former NYC and B&O cluster of lines between Decatur and Terre Haute after implementing PSR in 2017.

C&EI and MP had trackage rights on the Big Four route west of Pana.  Conrail sold the route to MP after they moved all of their traffic over to the rebuilt PRR line between Terre Haute and St. Louis.

 

Thanks for the correction forgot about that transaction to WATCO's D&EI.

 
 
 
 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by ns145 on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 11:16 AM

According to a C&EI history dissertation that I have, the C&EI trackage rights on the Big Four go back to 1891.  That is when the C&EI arrived in Shelbyville, IL.  The original connection was built there.  Later, after the Frisco bought control of the C&EI, the cutoff between Findlay and Pana was built in 1904-1905.  Along with the Woodland Cutoff between Villa Grove and Woodland, the Frisco's intent was to shorten the C&EI's routes between Chicago, St. Louis, and Thebes to make them more competitive.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 10:12 AM

C&EI had trackage rights over NYC into St. Louis since around the early 1900's.  Not sure of the exact date.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 9:49 AM

Pana to Effingham to St L (PRR) is the current St. Louis Line. NYC Pana-StL went to C&EI/UPRR - It was built largely as a giant 1904 line change to speed-up NYC's roundabout route to St. Louis (via Madison) obstensibly to compete with the others for Worlds Fair traffic going to/from St Louis. Uncle Pete bought the line from the CR estate. Trying to remember if trackage rights with UPRR/C&EI existed beforehand.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by ns145 on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 9:48 AM

SD60MAC9500
 

 

 
Convicted One

Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC?   Seems like I recall when Conrail  started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the  west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?

 

 

 

Yes. Three sections of the NYC St. Louis route is still in operation. One by UP between Pana, IL-East St. Louis. This harkens back to the C&EI. Not sure if this was joint trackage or trackage rights with the Big 4. CSX still operates the Terre Haute to Paris, IL section as well which was a part of the STL main. The other section is a small stretch in Shelbyville, IL operated by the Shelbyville Industrial Railroad.

 
 

Decatur & Eastern Illinois (DEIR) operates the Terre Haute-Paris line these days.  CSX sold off the former NYC and B&O cluster of lines between Decatur and Terre Haute after implementing PSR in 2017.

C&EI and MP had trackage rights on the Big Four route west of Pana.  Conrail sold the route to MP after they moved all of their traffic over to the rebuilt PRR line between Terre Haute and St. Louis.

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 9:21 AM
 

Convicted One

Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC?   Seems like I recall when Conrail  started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the  west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?

 

Yes. Three sections of the NYC St. Louis route is still in operation. One by UP between Pana, IL-East St. Louis. This harkens back to the C&EI. Not sure if this was joint trackage or trackage rights with the Big 4. CSX still operates the Terre Haute to Paris, IL section as well which was a part of the STL main. The other section is a small stretch in Shelbyville, IL operated by the Shelbyville Industrial Railroad.

 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by OWTX on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 7:40 AM

Railfans overvalue the PRR routes in what became PC, CR, CSX & NS.

The value in that freight franchise was dominance in DC-NY carload traffic and the Allegheny crossing. This allowed them to polish some turds west of Pittsburgh to get to Chicago and St Louis.

Entrenched ex-PRR management were not able to internalize this, and vexed PC and CR strategic decision making until Mr. Crane showed up.

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Posted by ELRobby on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 10:45 PM

MidlandMike

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

In the trail of submissions on this subject, in addition to this one, there are a couple that could be commented on extensively. Although just a lower level Conrail dispatching transportation manager at the time (and only a observer of the higher-ups management decisions and not privy to the reasons behind them), I think I can provide background from what I observed at the time. I have been in charge of dispatching offices in one form or another on the EL to Chicago, the Ft. Wayne Line from Wood to Bucyrus/Colsan and the Lake Shore from Berea to the east end of Elkhart. In 1979, I had to travel to Columbus, Ohio to be trained on the upcoming new Conrail rulebook. They had gathered every transportation supervisor that could be spared in addition to the regular rules examiners (Regional Managers and division Supervisors of Operating Rules on Conrail) in order to do a crash effort to get all the transportation, MW, and signal people trained on the new book in a short time. On the way there, I followed the part of the Panhandle coming into Columbus from the east and observed numerous production gangs at work on the line. There were a lot of gangs out there. A friend of mine had a career for a couple of years in the late 70's early 1980 as an operator at temporary block stations on the Panhandle west of Columbus to Bradford while a massive project to install CWR and TCS on that portion of the railroad went on and there was a need to have long portions of single track around the work. 
 
From these observations, it seemed to me that Conrail had long term plans for the Panhandle - maybe not to Chicago but at least to Bradford for the Pittsburgh to Indianapolis/St. Louis and southwest traffic to use this route. I don't think that higher-up's idea was to spend all this time and money fixing it up only to quickly downgrade and abandon a lot of the route.  However, that is what happened.
 
The only thing I know for sure is that Stanley Crane arrived on the property in early 1981 and took a whirlwind business train trip over Conrail. Not doing anything especially important one day, I had to go pick up my boss, the assistant superintendent, off of this train as it was traveling over the Ft. Wayne line eastward to Conway somewhere east of Alliance. Maybe it was Salem, Ohio - I don't remember exactly where. Coming back to Youngstown, my boss outlined to me what Crane's immediate plans were for the Panhandle. Most of the Pittsburgh to Avon trains were to be taken off of the Panhandle and would now use the Ft. Wayne Line to Crestline and then the former NYC's Big 4 from Crestline to Buckeye and Indianapolis and Avon. Also the Chicago bound trains on the Ft. Wayne Line would be diverted to the C&P at Alliance and use that route to Cleveland and thence on the NYC's water level route.
 
I don't think directing the Ft. Wayne Line traffic to Cleveland had anything to do with the Panhandle being downgraded and abandoned. What did it was moving the Panhandle traffic over to the combination Ft. Wayne/Big Four route. Also traffic out of Buckeye Yard (Columbus), instead of taking the Panhandle to Avon, it used the T&OC Western Branch from Columbus to Ridgeway, Ohio also getting on the Big Four at Ridgeway. Voila! and the Panhandle was quickly dried up.
 
From reading some of of the books that have come out since then, I'd have to guess that the plans for Conrail at the initial time of the USRA was - let's get rid of all of the really woe-be-gone branch lines and some of the parallel routes. What we have left will be fixed up - like the Panhandle - and Conrail will be profitable. What Mr. Crane saw was that industry in the Rust Belt had declined even further since the USRA's plan had been created and the only way for Conrail to be profitable was to concentrate traffic on a few routes - the Big X as it became to be known. So the Panhandle route became one of Mr. Crane's targets to eliminate as a through route - within 2 years after Conrail had done all the major rehab work on it.
 
I saw the same thing on the Ft. Wayne Line before and after Mr. Crane's arrival. It appeared to me that previous to Mr. Crane, Conrail management had big plans for it based on the rehab and TCS work I saw and then it all changed after his arrival. Several other sections on the railroad were completely rehabed and only were used for about a year. One spot on the former EL got a complete tie & surface job and never saw a train as far as I know.That would be another long subject perhaps commented on in a later submission. Mr. Crane quickly changed a lot of thinking about what Conrail would look like

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Posted by samfp1943 on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 9:19 PM

nanaimo73

Back in the 1960s Central and the Pennsylvania were the two biggest roads in Indiana. It looks like both had over 1200 route miles in the state, featuring matching lines to Chicago and through Indianapolis to St. Louis.

Some 60 years later, Central's trackage has not changed noticeably. Most of it is still in place, and much of it is well used by CSX and Norfolk Southern.

The Pennsylvania's trackage is a different story. Several lines have been removed, and what is left is pretty much CFW&E and a few shortlines hauling mostly local traffic.

Why were Central's routes superior, and Penny's routes superfluous?

 

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 8:12 PM

Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC?   Seems like I recall when Conrail  started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the  west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?

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Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 7:28 PM

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

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Posted by Bicycle Rider Indy on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 7:19 PM
The location of two major yards was a major factor in selection of mainlines to Chicago and St. Louis.  Elkhart and Avon locations sealed the deal.  PRR did not have well located major yards to classify traffic to and from the major western interchanges.
Looking at the big picture, PC and Conrail were focused on the X for traffic and mainlines.  Most other lines were to access major shippers and minor connections.

 

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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 5:22 PM

Duplicate

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 5:21 PM

Penn Central inherited track that was in pretty poor shape. PRR, at least in the west, had deferred maintenance much earlier than NYC  and PRR's plant was already in poor shape. PC invested in the track that was in better condition where their were duplicate lines and let the other go to make the best use of their budgets. The Big4 side of PC seems to have had better yards and was a little more entrenched. Get away from Chicago and there still plenty of PRR still in service.

Look at the USRA Preliminary (PSP) and Final (FSP) writeups as far as what was kept and what was spun off or abandoned. The formation of Conrail out of this mess has plenty of headscratchers.  Some of the surviving routes benefitted from line sales in adjoining states. 

Around Chicago, CR upgraded the PRR line with new 136 CWR and then walked away from it in 1979. It's still out there rusting away in the weeds.The Gary Airport bypass has finally put some of that PRR to use in the Whiting to Tolleston Area. (CR and Indiana DOT bungled the abandonment of some of that track so badly that the loose ends in the abandonment of some lines SE of Whiting may never get sorted out) Other parts had CWR unloaded  and then buried in the ditches so that the operating managers riding on business cars couldn't see it and ask questions. (really dumb, cut then we're talking PC/CR upper operating management) Horror stories like this are plentiful in Indiana. 

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 4:48 PM

Hi Dale! Yes

I don't recall exactly, but didn't the NYC build into the area first, getting the best routes like the water level route, etc.? Wasn't NYC built closer to the great lakes where there were already towns and thus some traffic?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 3:16 PM
 

Someone can correct me on this. Concerning Chicago. The Pennsy definitely had somewhat of a mainline advantage across Indiana. It didn't have an Otis hill to deal with for EBD traffic, bypassed busy points such as; Pine Jct., Chesterton, South Bend, and Elkhart. Throw in the route had much less curvature than the old LSMS. The Pennsy was definitely the speedway across the Hoosier. In addition the Panhandle Route was hands down probabaly the best way between Columbus-Chicago.

However adding to what Backshop mentioned. The western half of the Water Level Route had greater traffic generation than the western half of the Pennsy did. Also consider the hump yard at Elkhart. These were the most likely reasons the Pennsy was rejected as the main. Once fairly good traffic generating points of Lima and Ft. Wayne declined at a much faster pace than the lakeshore cities.

In recent times the CFE has hosted run through NS freights to take pressure off the WLR. CSX did have trackage rights, but I don't know if that's the case anymore..

P.S. For those who don't know. The NS main swtiches from NYC RoW to Pennsy at Whiting, Indiana for the jaunt to NS 47th Street IM Ramp and CUS. While the old NYC RoW currently host a ComEd transmission path and NS 63rd St(Park Manor) IM Ramp.

 
 
 
 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by Backshop on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 1:43 PM

Part of the reason is answered by looking to the east.  Through Ohio, the NYC goes through Cleveland and Toledo, both major cities.  The Pennsy goes through Upper Sandusky and Bucyrus. If you only have enough traffic for one route, you pick the one with the most online business.  That's what Conrail did.  The PRR had a good route up to Cleveland from the Canton area to funnel traffic up to the Water Level Route.

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Central vs Pennsy in Indiana
Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 12:35 PM

Back in the 1960s Central and the Pennsylvania were the two biggest roads in Indiana. It looks like both had over 1200 route miles in the state, featuring matching lines to Chicago and through Indianapolis to St. Louis.

Some 60 years later, Central's trackage has not changed noticeably. Most of it is still in place, and much of it is well used by CSX and Norfolk Southern.

The Pennsylvania's trackage is a different story. Several lines have been removed, and what is left is pretty much CFW&E and a few shortlines hauling mostly local traffic.

Why were Central's routes superior, and Pennsy's routes superfluous?

Dale

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