IIRC, the date on the East wall is 1908 or thereabouts.
MP173 Unsure about the Logansport locomotive shop. I have a photo somewhere taken in 1979. My guess and only a guess is that it was steam era. There is a railcar repair shop in that area now. ed
Unsure about the Logansport locomotive shop. I have a photo somewhere taken in 1979.
My guess and only a guess is that it was steam era.
There is a railcar repair shop in that area now.
ed
Convicted One mudchicken (and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.) And don't forget the mighty FW&J. There is your outlier in this discussion. Former NYC...almost completely gone (in Indiana).
mudchicken (and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)
And don't forget the mighty FW&J. There is your outlier in this discussion. Former NYC...almost completely gone (in Indiana).
Murphy Siding Backshop Murphy Siding MidlandMike It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed. When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route. Panhandle ? The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia. Thanks. I was trying to figure out why someone thought Indianna had a panhandle. I even went so far as to Google search states with panhandles. To be honest, some states seem to be pushing it. I'm looking at you Nebraska.
Backshop Murphy Siding
Murphy Siding
MidlandMike It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed. When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route. Panhandle ? The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia.
MidlandMike It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed. When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route. Panhandle ?
MidlandMike It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed. When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.
It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed. When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.
Panhandle ?
The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia.
Thanks. I was trying to figure out why someone thought Indianna had a panhandle. I even went so far as to Google search states with panhandles. To be honest, some states seem to be pushing it. I'm looking at you Nebraska.
One other thing to consider, is the Pennsy liked to move its passenger trains on their own track so the plodding freights didn't slow them down. Witness the almost straight as an arrow Fort Wayne Line across the state vs the wandering route of the Panhandle to keep grades generally lower. This isn't a perfect deliniation, but it helps explain the muliple main lines PRR had and no longer had enough traffic to support. This also worked to the detriment of the PRR. NYC may have done this elsewhere, but not so much across Indiana.
What's unusual is that all the NYC components had their own locomotive repair shops---NYC-West Albany. B&A-West Springfield. LS&MS-Collinwood. Big Four-Beech Grove. MC-Jackson. CASO-St Thomas.
mudchicken (and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.) The PRR Corporate structure was truly a Wall Street circus.
(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)
The PRR Corporate structure was truly a Wall Street circus.
PRR's Conway Yard was apparently the largest rail yard in the world during the 1950s, and it was situated near the middle of the railroad. Would it have been likely used mainly to sort traffic traveling between the western and eastern halfs of the railroad, or to serve the Pittsburgh area?
As someone pointed out earlier - yards put many PRR lines at a disadvantage that could not have been overcome even without the deferred main line maintenance on much of the PRR side in the Hoosier State (and, frankly, all of PRR Lines West
Pennsy terminal operations, at least west of Pittsburgh, were cramped, obsolete, and in poor physical condition. NYC yards on west end of the system were newer, more efficient, and were in much better condition. Naturally, the Central main lines feeding directly into them were usually the first choice.
An "air-line" was a pitch to the investor class that a railroad could make up for a lack of O&D traffic by pushing the projection for overhead traffic out to infinity.
The PRR western end was two railroads that weren't a good fit for rationalization into a core system, and the PRR managed to those fiefdoms, which fed into the red green battles of PC days.
St Louis never materialize as the dominate rail hub that it was for steam boat traffic, where they "stripped and stuffed" raw materials and finished goods on the region's landings.
The B&O had the same problem of cross WV operating expenses eating up the revenue on moves to St Louis, and landed on the same solution.
Rail traffic through the Ohio Valley gateway cities flows north south, not east west.
Convicted OneAnd some were built mostly because there were investors wanting to get in on "the next big thing"......which were both ripe for consolidation.
In some cases that involved folks who wanted a railroad between their town and the next, nevermind economic viability.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Convicted One... So, to insist that some lines succeeded while others failed....solely as a matter of geography....might be an overly (overtly?) narrow perspective
I think that lines that survive either had the most business, or were the lowest cost to operate, which has at least some basis in geography.
mudchicken(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)
I suspect one thing being overlooked in this discussion is that not all lines were built for transparent reasons. Some were built with an eye towards taking someone else's business. And some were built mostly because there were investors wanting to get in on "the next big thing"......which were both ripe for consolidation. Consequently some lines were bought by others not because they needed the capacity, but to keep the lines out of the hands of competitors.
And then there also is the industry-wide loss of business to trucking.
So, to insist that some lines succeeded while others failed....solely as a matter of geography....might be an overly (overtly?) narrow perspective
PRR used to have a 50% share in the ownership of Chicago Union Station, based on its own share and the share owned by the Pan Handle. CB&Q and MILW each had 25% shares in CUS.
The Panhandle = The Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago and St. Louis Railroad
A Pennsylvania Railroad subsidiary that they financed, and pieced together from various 19th century railroads.
The Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago Railway was another, and the route of the crack passenger trains to Chicago.
Murphy SidingPanhandle ?
Backshop's explanation notwithstanding, sometimes those names come from really obscure back stories. Like, someone looked at a map and said "that looks like a panhandle..." Not the case here, but...
Backshop Murphy Siding MidlandMike It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed. When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route. Panhandle ? The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia.
Murphy Siding MidlandMike It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed. When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route. Panhandle ?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
MP173--Since you seem to be quite familiar with Logansport, I have a question. I passed through once and saw a locomotive shop. Was that diesel era or did it seem to be from the steam era? It seemed to be similar to the one in Canton, OH, which I believe was diesel.
Very fascinating thread. Welcome back Dale!
Coincidentally I began reading this thread this afternoon and then made a quick family related trip to Logansport, In (from Valparaiso, In) and back, then finished reading.
Midland Mike - great review on what Stanley Crane decided. I recall in the early 80's, here in Valparaiso, In on the ex PRR the trains suddenly disappeared. I worked at a trucking terminal and my desk was about 30 yards from the Conrail (ex PRR) double track mainline. I nearly always turned to watch the action...until it ended.
Today my travel to Logansport took me on US 30, adjacent to the ex PRR line (now Chicago, Ft. Wayne and Eastern). The line is in decent shape and sees CFw&E plus NS (trackage rights) trains.
The ex Panhandle from Chicago thru North Judson to Logansport is long gone. I did catch a couple of trains in the late 70s on that line...down to 10mph if that. I caught one train at Kouts Tower (crossed the ex EL). Today there is the Keystone Bike path from Kewanee, In to Logansport...nice bike trail.
Logansport was a major railroad town with PRR. I have a PRR freight schedule book (mid 1950s) and considerable traffic to the East Coast moved via Logansport. At that point the line split, heading south to Indy and Louisville, with another line southeast to Richmond where it joined the PRR Indy - Columbus line. At Richmond a line headed south to Cincinnati.
Branch lines radiated from Logansport to South Bend, Auburn, Terre Haute, and Effner (to the TP&W - Santa Fe). Logansport was literally a hub and spoke operation. The Freight Schedule book is a facinating look at how PRR operated.
I did make a day trip to Logansport in October 1979 with a fellow railfan who had huge interest in PRR and we took a number of photos around the still standing facilities. I wasnt took excited as there were not many trains...wish I could have a muligan on that day.
Growing up in Southern Illinois near Effingham, I spent time in the 70s there watching the PC/Conrail and IC action. Also in Mattoon as my aunt lived there. PC and Conrail in late 70s would run westbounds on teh ex NYC thru Mattoon and ran both WB and EB thru Effingham.
The PRR in Indiana was downgraded over the NYC...no doubt about it. Elkhart Yard and Avon had quite a bit to do with that, but NYC lines were better and had revenue generating customers. Not so much on the PRR.
Ed
mudchicken:Minor correction. Pana to Effingham is not the current CSX line to St. Louis. In fact Pana and Effingham were not on the PRR line. Pana to Mattoon was NYC and PRR had a more direct line thru Effingham to St. Louis thru Collinsville. I grew up not too far from Effingham and Mattoon and watched PC trains on both ex NYC and PRR lines.
Gramp It's just too bad they were merged to begin with, and then forced to take on the New Haven in addition to add injury. I guess it all had to go to pot to wind up deep sixing the ICC.
It's just too bad they were merged to begin with, and then forced to take on the New Haven in addition to add injury. I guess it all had to go to pot to wind up deep sixing the ICC.
Backshop ndbprr Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR. I'd heard it was more like OWTX said above and that PRR was more in charge at PC.
ndbprr
Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR. I'd heard it was more like OWTX said above and that PRR was more in charge at PC.
Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR.
ndbprr Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR.
MidlandMikebut the subject of the thread was the lines in Indiana.
The fork in the road was in Indiana.
MidlandMike Convicted One Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC? Seems like I recall when Conrail started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the west. Terre Haute being the dividing point? I could have elaborated more in my post you were responding to, but the subject of the thread was the lines in Indiana.
Convicted One Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC? Seems like I recall when Conrail started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?
Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC? Seems like I recall when Conrail started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?
I could have elaborated more in my post you were responding to, but the subject of the thread was the lines in Indiana.
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