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Central vs Pennsy in Indiana

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Posted by rrnut282 on Monday, August 15, 2022 12:26 PM

IIRC, the date on the East wall is 1908 or thereabouts.  

MP173

Unsure about the Logansport locomotive shop.  I have a photo somewhere taken in 1979.

My guess and only a guess is that it was steam era.

There is a railcar repair shop in that area now.

ed

 

Mike (2-8-2)
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Posted by rrnut282 on Monday, August 15, 2022 12:23 PM

Convicted One

 

 
mudchicken
(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)

 

And don't forget the mighty FW&J. There is your outlier in this discussion. Former NYC...almost completely gone (in Indiana).

 

As an aside:  I'm riding a steam train on an Indiana remnant of the FW&J this month. 

Mike (2-8-2)
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Posted by rrnut282 on Monday, August 15, 2022 12:17 PM

Murphy Siding

 

 
Backshop

 

 
Murphy Siding

 

 

MidlandMike

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

 

 

 

Panhandle ?

 

 

 

 

The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia.

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I was trying to figure out why someone thought Indianna had a panhandle. I even went so far as to Google search states with panhandles. To be honest, some states seem to be pushing it. I'm looking at you Nebraska. Mischief

 

 

I thought you were asking who built the Logansport car repair facility since the ex PRR Panhandle was on one side and the ex Wabash on North side.

One other thing to consider, is the Pennsy liked to move its passenger trains on their own track so the plodding freights didn't slow them down.  Witness the almost straight as an arrow Fort Wayne Line across the state vs the wandering route of the Panhandle to keep grades generally lower.  This isn't a perfect deliniation, but it helps explain the muliple main lines PRR had and no longer had enough traffic to support.  This also worked to the detriment of the PRR.  NYC may have done this elsewhere, but not so much across Indiana. 

Mike (2-8-2)
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Posted by Backshop on Monday, August 15, 2022 10:26 AM

What's unusual is that all the NYC components had their own locomotive repair shops---NYC-West Albany. B&A-West Springfield. LS&MS-Collinwood. Big Four-Beech Grove. MC-Jackson. CASO-St Thomas.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, August 15, 2022 10:16 AM

mudchicken

(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)

The PRR Corporate structure was truly a Wall Street circus.

 
NYC's corporate structure wasn't much simpler.  Both systems had an oversupply of subsidiaries that were majority owned by the parent and were operated under leases of various lengths.  I can remember poring through Moody's Transportaion Manuals dated prior to 1976 trying to figure out (with little success) how everything fit together.
     It was slightly more complicated than the ownership and operation of the South Shore Line between Kensington and the Illinois-Indiana state line.
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Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, August 15, 2022 2:01 AM

PRR's Conway Yard was apparently the largest rail yard in the world during the 1950s, and it was situated near the middle of the railroad. Would it have been likely used mainly to sort traffic traveling between the western and eastern halfs of the railroad, or to serve the Pittsburgh area?

Dale
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Posted by CatFoodFlambe on Sunday, August 14, 2022 8:56 PM

As someone pointed out earlier - yards put many PRR lines at a disadvantage that could not have been overcome even without the deferred main line maintenance on much of the PRR side in the Hoosier State (and, frankly, all of PRR Lines West 

Pennsy terminal operations, at least west of Pittsburgh, were cramped, obsolete, and in poor physical condition.   NYC yards on west end of the system were newer, more efficient, and were in much better condition.  Naturally, the Central main lines feeding directly into them were usually the first choice.   

 

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Posted by OWTX on Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:25 PM

An "air-line" was a pitch to the investor class that a railroad could make up for a lack of O&D traffic by pushing the projection for overhead traffic out to infinity.

The PRR western end was two railroads that weren't a good fit for rationalization into a core system, and the PRR managed to those fiefdoms, which fed into the red green battles of PC days.

St Louis never materialize as the dominate rail hub that it was for steam boat traffic, where they "stripped and stuffed" raw materials and finished goods on the region's landings.

The B&O had the same problem of cross WV operating expenses eating up the revenue on moves to St Louis, and landed on the same solution.

Rail traffic through the Ohio Valley gateway cities flows north south, not east west.

 

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, August 14, 2022 1:54 AM

Convicted One
And some were built mostly because there were investors wanting to get in on "the next big thing"......which were both ripe for consolidation. 

In some cases that involved folks who wanted a railroad between their town and the next, nevermind economic viability.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:35 PM

Convicted One
... So, to insist that some lines succeeded while others failed....solely as a matter of geography....might be an overly (overtly?) narrow perspective

I think that lines that survive either had the most business, or were the lowest cost to operate, which has at least some basis in geography.

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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:16 PM

mudchicken
(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)

And don't forget the mighty FW&J. There is your outlier in this discussion. Former NYC...almost completely gone (in Indiana).

 

I suspect one thing being overlooked in this discussion is that not all lines were built for  transparent reasons.  Some were built  with an eye towards taking someone else's business. And some were built mostly because there were investors wanting to get in on "the next big thing"......which were both ripe for consolidation.  Consequently some lines were bought by others not because they needed the capacity, but to keep the lines out of the hands of competitors.

And then there also is the industry-wide loss of business to trucking.

 

So, to insist that some lines succeeded while others failed....solely as a matter of geography....might be an overly (overtly?) narrow perspective

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Posted by mudchicken on Saturday, August 13, 2022 10:05 AM

(and The Vandalia doesn't get a mention in all of this? Big Four could be added too.)

The PRR Corporate structure was truly a Wall Street circus.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:58 AM

PRR used to have a 50% share in the ownership of Chicago Union Station, based on its own share and the share owned by the Pan Handle.  CB&Q and MILW each had 25% shares in CUS.

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Posted by OWTX on Friday, August 12, 2022 8:59 PM

The Panhandle = The Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago and St. Louis Railroad

A Pennsylvania Railroad subsidiary that they financed, and pieced together from various 19th century railroads.

The Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago Railway was another, and the route of the crack passenger trains to Chicago.

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, August 12, 2022 3:59 PM

Murphy Siding
Panhandle ?

Backshop's explanation notwithstanding, sometimes those names come from really obscure back stories.  Like, someone looked at a map and said "that looks like a panhandle..."  Not the case here, but...

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, August 12, 2022 2:21 PM

Backshop

 

 
Murphy Siding

 

 
MidlandMike

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

 

 

 

Panhandle ?

 

 

 

 

The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia.

 

 

Thanks. I was trying to figure out why someone thought Indianna had a panhandle. I even went so far as to Google search states with panhandles. To be honest, some states seem to be pushing it. I'm looking at you Nebraska. Mischief

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Backshop on Friday, August 12, 2022 1:00 PM

Murphy Siding

 

 
MidlandMike

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

 

 

 

Panhandle ?

 

 

The PRR line from Pittsburgh, through Columbus and Indianapolis, to St Louis was known as the "Panhandle", since it crossed the panhandle of West Virginia.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, August 12, 2022 12:54 PM

MidlandMike

It seems once the Pennsylvania traffic was directed to Cleveland, the Panhandle to St. Louis was doomed.  When Conrail was split, NS already had the ex-Wabash for a St. Louis route.

 

Panhandle ?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by MP173 on Friday, August 12, 2022 8:50 AM

Unsure about the Logansport locomotive shop.  I have a photo somewhere taken in 1979.

My guess and only a guess is that it was steam era.

There is a railcar repair shop in that area now.

ed

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Posted by Backshop on Thursday, August 11, 2022 9:22 PM

MP173--Since you seem to be quite familiar with Logansport, I have a question.  I passed through once and saw a locomotive shop.  Was that diesel era or did it seem to be from the steam era?  It seemed to be similar to the one in Canton, OH, which I believe was diesel.

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Posted by MP173 on Thursday, August 11, 2022 8:17 PM

Very fascinating thread.  Welcome back Dale!

Coincidentally I began reading this thread this afternoon and then made a quick family related trip to Logansport, In (from Valparaiso, In) and back, then finished reading.

Midland Mike - great review on what Stanley Crane decided.  I recall in the early 80's, here in Valparaiso, In on the ex PRR the trains suddenly disappeared.  I worked at a trucking terminal and my desk was about 30 yards from the Conrail (ex PRR) double track mainline.  I nearly always turned to watch the action...until it ended.  

Today my travel to Logansport took me on US 30, adjacent to the ex PRR line (now Chicago, Ft. Wayne and Eastern).  The line is in decent shape and sees CFw&E plus NS (trackage rights) trains.  

The ex Panhandle from Chicago thru North Judson to Logansport is long gone.  I did catch a couple of trains in the late 70s on that line...down to 10mph if that.  I caught one train at Kouts Tower (crossed the ex EL).  Today there is the Keystone Bike path from Kewanee, In to Logansport...nice bike trail.  

Logansport was a major railroad town with PRR.  I have a PRR freight schedule book (mid 1950s) and considerable traffic to the East Coast moved via Logansport.  At that point the line split, heading south to Indy and Louisville, with another line southeast to Richmond where it joined the PRR Indy - Columbus line.  At Richmond a line headed south to Cincinnati.  

Branch lines radiated from Logansport to South Bend, Auburn, Terre Haute, and Effner (to the TP&W - Santa Fe).  Logansport was literally a hub and spoke operation.  The Freight Schedule book is a facinating look at how PRR operated.

I did make a day trip to Logansport in October 1979 with a fellow railfan who had huge interest in PRR and we took a number of photos around the still standing facilities.  I wasnt took excited as there were not many trains...wish I could have a muligan on that day.

Growing up in Southern Illinois near Effingham, I spent time in the 70s there watching the PC/Conrail and IC action.  Also in Mattoon as my aunt lived there. PC and Conrail in late 70s would run westbounds on teh ex NYC thru Mattoon and ran both WB and EB thru Effingham. 

The PRR in Indiana was downgraded over the NYC...no doubt about it.  Elkhart Yard and Avon had quite a bit to do with that, but NYC lines were better and had revenue generating customers.  Not so much on the PRR.

Ed 

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Posted by MP173 on Thursday, August 11, 2022 7:59 PM

mudchicken:

Minor correction.  Pana to Effingham is not the current CSX line to St. Louis.  In fact Pana and Effingham were not on the PRR line.  Pana to Mattoon was NYC and PRR had a more direct line thru Effingham to St. Louis thru Collinsville. I grew up not too far from Effingham and Mattoon and watched PC trains on both ex NYC and PRR lines.  

ed

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Posted by Backshop on Thursday, August 11, 2022 7:43 PM

Gramp

It's just too bad they were merged to begin with, and then forced to take on the New Haven in addition to add injury. 
I guess it all had to go to pot to wind up deep sixing the ICC. 

 

They both would've died even if they hadn't merged.  It's just sad that so many other roads had to die with them because PC wouldn't pay what they owed them. While several didn't stand a chance, I think that because of its Chicago connections, the EL might've been able to survive.  Of course, that's just a layman's opinion. The Reading would've morphed into the R&N and the CNJ and LV the CSAO.

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Posted by Gramp on Thursday, August 11, 2022 6:20 PM

It's just too bad they were merged to begin with, and then forced to take on the New Haven in addition to add injury. 
I guess it all had to go to pot to wind up deep sixing the ICC. 

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Posted by adkrr64 on Thursday, August 11, 2022 10:53 AM

Backshop

ndbprr

Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR. 

I'd heard it was more like OWTX said above and that PRR was more in charge at PC.

 
I think a lot of people on both sides thought they were in charge, and created the dysfunctional organization that it was. When too many people are in charge, no one is in charge.
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Posted by Backshop on Thursday, August 11, 2022 10:31 AM

ndbprr

Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR. 

 

I'd heard it was more like OWTX said above and that PRR was more in charge at PC.

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Posted by ndbprr on Thursday, August 11, 2022 8:15 AM

Another big reason not mentioned is after the PC merger NYC management took power and a lot of what got done to redundent management and lines that got canned was vindictive toward the PRR. 

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Posted by Convicted One on Thursday, August 11, 2022 12:35 AM

MidlandMike
but the subject of the thread was the lines in Indiana.

 

The fork  in the road was in Indiana. Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 8:56 PM

MidlandMike

 

 
Convicted One

Isn't the CSX line to St Louis like half PRR and half NYC?   Seems like I recall when Conrail  started rationalizing plant they kept the NYC portion in the east, and the PRR portion in the  west. Terre Haute being the dividing point?

 

 

 

I could have elaborated more in my post you were responding to, but the subject of the thread was the lines in Indiana.

 

Its all good, I got my question answered, and he got his question answered. Thanks everyone for the replies! 

Dale

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