n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm
Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm
Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both?
I mean, our society did have that for most of the post WWII era......
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both? I mean, our society did have that for most of the post WWII era......
Even after WW II a 'living' wage and entry into the housing market was not all that easy to come by. My Dad hired out in 1937 and worked his way through a series of positions to reach the position of Asst. Terminal Superintendent in Baltimore before he felt 'comfortable' in purchasing a home in 1954. Even thereafter, with subsequent promotions and transfers our residences were rentals in Garrett, IN, Stow, OH and Washington, IN until he felt confident enough to purchase a property in Bethel Park, PA in 1967 which he occupied at the time of his forced retirement.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
n012944Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm
What's the point in having a house if you're never home to see it?
This isn't 1890 anymore. The railroads can't just toss an extra $100 at the workers to shut them up. People don't want to spend their entire lives working increasingly lousier jobs.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
The solution to labor shortages is unfortunately, automation.
samfp1943 Response to Tree's comment of last evening [Posted by tree68 on Sunday, July 10, 2022 10:08 PM] Apparently the systyem gitched me out? showed aain this AM? ] Just watched the OP's Video....As a long time railfan and interested observer who has known many railroad employees down through a number pof years. I am surprised that this situation has gone on without a 'Contract' fpr so long. Where is the dues paying member's Union leadership? It certainly seems as if the Union's are not giving the dues paying membership, any value for their dues? What is the deal with that? Just askin'
Response to Tree's comment of last evening [Posted by tree68 on Sunday, July 10, 2022 10:08 PM] Apparently the systyem gitched me out? showed aain this AM? ]
Just watched the OP's Video....As a long time railfan and interested observer who has known many railroad employees down through a number pof years. I am surprised that this situation has gone on without a 'Contract' fpr so long.
Where is the dues paying member's Union leadership? It certainly seems as if the Union's are not giving the dues paying membership, any value for their dues?
What is the deal with that? Just askin'
The unions can do nothing about the attendence policies. First, although contracts mention being allowed a "reasonable" time off, that's a vague, undefined term. Second the policies are just that, company policies that can (and do from time to tome) change. The BNSF went from an appearently liberal time off policy to a rather draconian one. (Although I don't know the details, BN did something like that in the early 1990s.) The courts have deemed that attendence policies are a minor dispute under the RLA. One that the unions can strike over.
The RLA, Railway Labor Act, governs railroad (and airline) labor contracts. There is a process that must be followed before a strike can be called. The RLA is designed to get to contract agreements without strikes or lock outs.
Railroad labor contracts never end like in other industries. When they reach the end of the term, they automatically extend until another one takes effect. Pay rates stay static during the extension. New pay rates are retroactive (usually) and employees get back pay. The status quo for the rest of the contract also is maintained.
Before a contract's term ends, both sides serve "section 6" notices for what each side wants in the next contract. They start negotiating from there. There is no time limit for how long negotiations take. Eventually when the sides can't come to terms, they go into mediation. This was done last January. Last month, the unions asked to be released from mediation. Binding Arbitraition is offered. If accepted, a panel is chosen. So many picked by each side plus neutrals. This time, the unions rejected the offer and where released from mediation. This starts the first 30 day cooling off period. This expires July 17th. Either side can take steps for "self-help." That is, strike or lock out.
Before the end of the cooling off period, the President can appoint a PEB, Presidential Emergency Board. So far one has not been appointed, but it sounds like one is in the works. Once the PEB is set, it has 30 days (which can be extended by agreement of both parties. This is another cooling off period. Once the the PEB issues it's recommendations, the final 30 day cooling off period begins. At any point, both sides could come to mutual agreement on a contract. I doubt this will, or even could happen at this time.
Once the final cooling off period ends, the RLA has run it's course. Either side can resort to self-help, a strike or lock out. Then congress can become involved. Congress' involvement is authorized by the commerce clause of the Constitution. They can legislate what the contract will be. They can impose the PEB's recommendations, pick parts, even offer amendments that in effect rewrite a contract. Normally they just impose the PEB recommendation.
The unions are betting on a better deal from a Democratic PEB and congress. That's a crap shoot at best. It's an election year and that involves politics. Right now, July 17 is the first chance for a strike. More realistcally, sometime in the later part of September is the best chance for a strike and/or lock out.
Jeff
It took me about 90 minutes to post my reply. I kept getting a 403 Forbidden message. Finally went through.
What a nightmare. When everything is summed up it seems railroading is designed to create chaos rather than order.
azrailThe solution to labor shortages is unfortunately, automation.
We have had extensive discussions on further 'automation' of T&E. Imagine the fun when, not if, the automated control fails. Or when a knuckle fails on a bridge or heavily-wooded country. You may have higher cost for the emergency response than you had with regular wages (the whole 'call' system scheme being to reduce the number of actual payable hours as low as possible...)
All,
that is a very moving video.
BaltACD,
Not sure I agree with Euclid's post.
Usually I just browse the forum. However, I have to respond.
"It has been explained in the over 22K post I have made in the last 19 years. Do your research."
Your post seems snippy and arrogant following your earlier one quoted below. You must have been having a bad day.
--
Again, you display your lack of understanding of railroads and their employment issues - both from the top down and the bottom up. Please explain what you think I am not understanding.
Again, you display your lack of understanding of railroads and their employment issues - both from the top down and the bottom up.
Please explain what you think I am not understanding.
Your problem - not mine!
HillyardAll, that is a very moving video. BaltACD, Not sure I agree with Euclid's post. Usually I just browse the forum. However, I have to respond. "It has been explained in the over 22K post I have made in the last 19 years. Do your research." Your post seems snippy and arrogant following your earlier one quoted below. You must have been having a bad day.-- Again, you display your lack of understanding of railroads and their employment issues - both from the top down and the bottom up. Please explain what you think I am not understanding.
Your post seems snippy and arrogant following your earlier one quoted below. You must have been having a bad day.--
Rejoice - Snark Week is fast approaching!
OvermodThis reminded me of a quote from PC Magazine's John Dvorak, a kind of computer-guy version of Kneiling, who noted that the advent of the 'paperless office' was a clear call to go out and invest in a paper mill...
Pretty good advice, as I understand it the paper mills that converted to cardboard boxes are doing pretty well in this "order-on-line" age. All that stuff ordered from Amazon, Wayfair, and others has to be shipped in something.
Oh, take it from me, the paperless office doesn't exist, at least not when I retired in 2018. I doubt things have changed much.
Flintlock76 Overmod This reminded me of a quote from PC Magazine's John Dvorak, a kind of computer-guy version of Kneiling, who noted that the advent of the 'paperless office' was a clear call to go out and invest in a paper mill... Pretty good advice, as I understand it the paper mills that converted to cardboard boxes are doing pretty well in this "order-on-line" age. All that stuff ordered from Amazon, Wayfair, and others has to be shipped in something. Oh, take it from me, the paperless office doesn't exist, at least not when I retired in 2018. I doubt things have changed much.
Overmod This reminded me of a quote from PC Magazine's John Dvorak, a kind of computer-guy version of Kneiling, who noted that the advent of the 'paperless office' was a clear call to go out and invest in a paper mill...
When I was working in CCSI (Chessie Computer Services Inc.) the big push was to create and develop the programs and processes for CSX, as a transportation company, to GO PAPERLESS.
The reality is - the world will never be paperless. Putting all information in digital format to only be displayed on electronic display devices as manipulation of the devices do not supply the utility that paper does for the ultimate users of the data being presented.
"Paperless office" just meant they pushed the printing down to the end-user instead of the middleman or supplier. Millions more printers to load instead of hundreds of thousands of office printers.
Hillyard,
Euclid often misses subtle points dealing with the nuts and bolts of railroading.
Our office is heading toward "paperless"... our usage is down to about 25% of what it was 20 years ago. I don't think it will ever be completely paperless though. Years ago the fax machines would hum away all day long... now they sit mostly silent. No more paper required in the day to day dispatch and order processing at all. We still mail out checks to suppliers who can't take electronic payments... so envelopes and checks are still with us.
The one group of employees who have really appreciated going paperless are the airline pilots. No more suitcases of charts and rulebooks. The company just gave everyone an ipad or similar.
SD70Dude n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both?
If only I was management. Nothing is given to you, you have to work for it. As someone who didn't party through my 20's but worked many 16 hour days in the dispatch office, who left plenty of family party's early or arrived late to them because of the railroad I have little sympathy for those not willing to give it all for a house.
Due to my choices in my 20's, I am able to enjoy my 40's, in a house worth a lot of money.
An "expensive model collector"
The difference is that due to all the furloughs and PSR, it appears that operating employees have the same long days in their 40s and 50s that they had in their 20s. Even if what you said was the norm, why does it have to be?
n012944Due to my choices in my 20's, I am able to enjoy my 40's, in a house worth a lot of money.
The things we tell ourselves.
I worked a lot through my 20s as well. As I approach my 40s, I realize what a mistake that was. Stuff is just that. Time, on the other hand...
zugmann n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm What's the point in having a house if you're never home to see it? This isn't 1890 anymore. The railroads can't just toss an extra $100 at the workers to shut them up. People don't want to spend their entire lives working increasingly lousier jobs.
And those of us that own houses don't want to see the value of our investment go down because the new age workers don't want to put the time in to afford them. As I said, if you don't want to put the work in, that is fine. Just don't female dog about the fact you don't get the rewards without doing the work.
BackshopThe difference is that due to all the furloughs and PSR, it appears that operating employees have the same long days in their 40s and 50s that they had in their 20s. Even if what you said was the norm, why does it have to be?
Exactly. Used to be you worked 15 years at crap jobs with the latter years working more "normal" jobs with better work-life balance. But not anymore. That's why people with 10-15-20 years are walking.
n012944As I said, if you don't want to put the work in, that is fine. Just don't female dog about the fact you don't get the rewards without doing the work.
I have a house. Luckily I was able to get one before prices went super insane. Same with my truck.
But for newer people startinng out, even if they work 16 hours, they're not going to be able to afford that nice house, a nice truck, boat, etc. So why kill themselves for stuff they aren't ever going to get?
Everything has gone up instead of wages. Just becuase it sucked for us, doesn't mean it should suck even more for those that come after us.
zugmann n012944 Due to my choices in my 20's, I am able to enjoy my 40's, in a house worth a lot of money. The things we tell ourselves. I worked a lot through my 20s as well. As I approach my 40s, I realize what a mistake that was. Stuff is just that. Time, on the other hand...
n012944 Due to my choices in my 20's, I am able to enjoy my 40's, in a house worth a lot of money.
I watch other people that I work with, that didn't work a lot when they were younger, struggle. They pick up overtime on their days off, sell off vacation for extra money, and don't go out much.
I only work my 40 hours a week. I use all of my vacation and personal days, going to different places. I sit and drink by my pool when I am not at work. I spend my weekends cruising down the ICW in my boat, or driving my sports car. I am able to do these things because of the choices I made in my 20s, and have more time now to enjoy life than I would have if I made different choices back then. That isn't something I "tell myself", it is a fact.
And there's people in their 20s doing the same thing.
so.. congratulations? It's just a weird flex.
zugmann But for newer people starting out, even if they work 16 hours, they're not going to be able to afford that nice house, a nice truck, boat, etc. So why kill themselves for stuff they aren't ever going to get?
But for newer people starting out, even if they work 16 hours, they're not going to be able to afford that nice house, a nice truck, boat, etc. So why kill themselves for stuff they aren't ever going to get?
I remember my grandfather in law, telling me 20 years ago how sorry he felt for my generation. How we would never be able to afford to live like his generation did, due to the changes in society. Yet here I am, living a better life than he did.
n012944Yet here I am, living a better life than he did.
Good for you.
zugmann And there's people in their 20s doing the same thing. so.. congratulations? It's just a weird flex.
It really isn't. It is what has been expected in life. Doctors get the crap kicked out of them and don't make a lot of money for the first couple of years out of medical school. Pilots make little more than minimum wage flying puddle jumpers until they can get enough hours to get on with a major carrier.
Now we have parts of a new generation expecting to be able to work 9-5 with every holiday off, get paid a lot of money, and houses sitting around for them at 1990's pricing. It just isn't the way of the world.
zugmann n012944 Yet here I am, living a better life than he did. Good for you.
n012944 Yet here I am, living a better life than he did.
Isn't it?
UlrichYears ago the fax machines would hum away all day long... now they sit mostly silent.
A big exception to that are hospitals and medical offices, they're still big users of faxes, or at least they were when I retired in 2018. Doctors and nurses like having that paper handy immediately, not running information through a computer and then to a printer. Not that they don't do the latter, but the fax was more efficient. A fax was also a lot easier to read than info off a smart phone screen.
Backshop The difference is that due to all the furloughs and PSR, it appears that operating employees have the same long days in their 40s and 50s that they had in their 20s. Even if what you said was the norm, why does it have to be?
My employer just started a new dispatcher class. The job posting was available for anyone in the company. 8 hour days, working in an office. There were only 73 applicants from the T&E side. There are opportunities for better work schedules.
n012944 Backshop The difference is that due to all the furloughs and PSR, it appears that operating employees have the same long days in their 40s and 50s that they had in their 20s. Even if what you said was the norm, why does it have to be? My employer just started a new dispatcher class. The job posting was available for anyone in the company. 8 hour days, working in an office. There were only 73 applicants from the T&E side. There are opportunities for better work schedules.
73 from T&E or 73 from the company total?
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