Another Derailment at Santa Fe Jct Caught on Camera

[Euclid]

I meant centerbeams.

[Murphy Siding]

Euclid

Regarding that loud bang, I have never heard anything like that in a passing train.  Drawbars and draft gear can bang and pop, but that bang in the video was way louder than any of the typical sounds. 

 

I believe the train was under extreme buff force and that is what started the derailment by pushing the first auto rack toward the outer rail of the curve to the point where its wheel flanges contacting the rail resisted the buff push occurring at the level of the center sills and couplers. 

 

 

I'm not seeing any auto racks

[diningcar]

I believe grades are insignificant at SF Jct. I have been there, but years ago.

[Euclid]

wjstix

It does appear that three small things, each maybe about the size of a softball, drop off the far side of the one covered hopper at the same time or a fraction of a second after the loud boom. My first thought was it was pieces of ice knocked off the roof, but hard to say for sure. Unfortunate we don't have a view from the other side of the train!

 

I think those three objects that fell off of the covered hopper were shaken loose from the big bang, which occurred just as the objects fell.   I think that indicates that the excess buff force caused some type of stress release in the structure of the car's draft gear.  The three objects could have been ice or hard snow.  

I see someone on Train Orders Forum says there was no DP on the rear of the train, but the line is descending a grade in the direction of that train.  It sure looks like the train sped up between the first video sequence and the second with with the big bang.  Someone at T.O. also said it was excessive buff force from either too much dynamic braking or air braking.  

[wjstix]

It does appear that three small things, each maybe about the size of a softball, drop off the far side of the one covered hopper at the same time or a fraction of a second after the loud boom. My first thought was it was pieces of ice knocked off the roof, but hard to say for sure. Unfortunate we don't have a view from the other side of the train!

[Murphy Siding]

BaltACD

 

 

rdamon

 

diningcar

I agree with Balt. The noise was from another source. 

Watched the videos again.  There was the bobcat operator clearing snow in the parking lot below the camera.  That may have been the source of the noise.

 

 

To my ear the 'noise' sounded like a explosion of something - had the Bobcat in some way been close enough to cause it - most likely we would have seen the Bobcat (or its parts) flying through the air.

 

Listen to how loud the Bobcat is at the end of the video. I'd say if the Bobcat dropped his bucket hard near the camera it could sound like the boom in the video.

[NP Eddie]

Thank you for showing all the layout of the bridges.

 

Ed Burns

[tree68]

mvlandsw

I think the noise is from the slack running in resonating through those covered hoppers. They sound like that if you make a hard coupling when switching.

Took another look at the video.  I hadn't paid attention to the fact that the one covered hopper was in between a bunch of tank cars.  That would tend to explain the single "boom" as opposed to a series of same.  Tank cars aren't usually as noisy as hoppers in such situations.

 

[Euclid]

That comprehensive video is extremely interesting, both with the close-ups and the inclusion of the head end of the train before and during the derailment.   While the bang could have been an explosion unrelated to the train, I conclude that it was caused by the train, and originated by the gray covered hopper that was directly in front of the camera when the bang occurred.  Interestingly too, is the appearance of debris falling off of the car at the instant of the bang. 

 

You can see a few chunks of something maybe a few inches in size, falling from the car on its side opposite the camera.  You can see them through the three large open spaces under the carbody, between the hopper bins.  Each of the three spaces reveals falling pieces of debris simultaneously during the instant of the big bang. 

 

The perfect time correlation between the bang and the falling debris is strong evidence that the two events are related both originating from some type stress release within the structure of the hopper car.  While it does sound like a hard coupling impact, there is no indication that it came from slack run-in. 

 

The video opens with the passage of the three engines and the first two cars, and then that sequence ends and another begins with the passing cars, including the bang and the sound of the derailment and dynamiting brakes just after the derailment begins.   Since those are two independent video sequences, it does not indicate how many cars and video time there was between the two sequences. 

 

The reason I mention this is because the train seems to have increased its speed in the second sequence compared to the first sequence.  The second sequence is when the bang occurs, and there, the train seems to be moving a few MPH faster than in the first sequence. 

 

The fact that no slack was heard running in before or during the derailment suggests that the slack was bunched during the entire video, or at least the part begining with the second sequence.  Indeed the derailment itself seems be caused by excessive compression/draft force, which could only occur with slack bunched.

 

So if the train accelerated during the video, it follows that the acceleration was caused by power shoving on the hind end.  The first evidence of the excess draft force was the bang associated with the covered hopper.  The second evidence was the derailment. 

[mvlandsw]

I think the noise is from the slack running in resonating through those covered hoppers. They sound like that if you make a hard coupling when switching.

[tree68]

VR has put together a summary, including some slow motion, which includes the loud bang.

I'm not so sure the bang is directly related to the derailment.  It occurs well before cars start to leave the tracks, and the train doesn't appear to change  speed or anything.  A run-in would tend to be a series of bangs, not a single one such as that.

Here's the link to the consolidated video of the wreck and clean-up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9VIWVlCIlg

 

[BaltACD]

rdamon

 

diningcar

I agree with Balt. The noise was from another source. 

Watched the videos again.  There was the bobcat operator clearing snow in the parking lot below the camera.  That may have been the source of the noise.

To my ear the 'noise' sounded like a explosion of something - had the Bobcat in some way been close enough to cause it - most likely we would have seen the Bobcat (or its parts) flying through the air.

[tree68]

Just saw a picture of damage to one of the vertical beams.  Not huge, but I'm not a bridge guy.  It's being repaired.  

[rdamon]

diningcar

I agree with Balt. The noise was from another source.

 

 

Watched the videos again.  There was the bobcat operator clearing snow in the parking lot below the camera.  That may have been the source of the noise.

 

[rdamon]

NP Eddie

I understand it was a UP train. Who owns the railroad the derailment was on and controls the signals? Also was the overpass constructed to relieve congestions in Kansas City MO?

Ed Burns

Retired Class 1

 

The older bridge has been there awhile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highline_Bridge_(Kansas_City,_Kansas)

The Argentine Flyover that can be seen behind the Highline bridge opened in 2004

https://second.wiki/wiki/argentine_connection_bridge

 

All the tracks are controlled by the Kansas City Terminal Railway.

[diningcar]

I agree with Balt. The noise was from another source.

[BaltACD]

rdamon

 

BaltACD 

rdamon

There was also a loud "boom" about 10-15 seconds before the centerbeams took the turn.  Maybe that was slack action. 

Didn't sound like any slack action I ever heard in 51 years as a railroader. 

And that is why this outsider hangs out here  :)

Do you think it was related?

The early 'noise' to my ear sounds like some form of explosion.  I don't know if there is any kind of a construction project that is taking place within earshot of Santa Fe Jct. or not, but construction and explosions go together in many instances.

[NP Eddie]

I understand it was a UP train. Who owns the railroad the derailment was on and controls the signals? Also was the overpass constructed to relieve congestions in Kansas City MO?

Ed Burns

Retired Class 1

[Euclid]

Regarding that loud bang, I have never heard anything like that in a passing train.  Drawbars and draft gear can bang and pop, but that bang in the video was way louder than any of the typical sounds. 

 

I believe the train was under extreme buff force and that is what started the derailment by pushing the first auto rack toward the outer rail of the curve to the point where its wheel flanges contacting the rail resisted the buff push occurring at the level of the center sills and couplers. 

 

The flanges held the rail and that elevated buff force started to tip the car.  As the car tipped, the tipping flanges disengaged from the side of the rail, and rode over the railhead.  Then once the wheels were over the rail, the car was pushed further and just turned over rather than sliding its wheels sideways on the ground.   

 

All of that buff/compression force was through the center sills and couplers, so that line is several feet above the rails and ground where the wheel flanges were resisting the sideways sliding.  So the buff force just persisted to tip the car over. 

 

I speculate that the loud bang heard in the beginning of the video was caused by the same high buff force that some seconds later caused the derailment.  It would be interesting to know what actually physically moved to cause that bang without directly causing the subsequent slightly later. 

[rdamon]

BaltACD

 

 

rdamon

There was also a loud "boom" about 10-15 seconds before the centerbeams took the turn.  Maybe that was slack action.

 

 

Didn't sound like any slack action I ever heard in 51 years as a railroader.

 

 

And that is why this outsider hangs out here  :)

Do you think it was related?

[caldreamer]

The two tank cars nearest the derailment staid upright except for the trucks off the track which is good, easy fix.  Noticed that the first center beam rolled on its side and that started the derailment.

 

[BaltACD]

rdamon

There was also a loud "boom" about 10-15 seconds before the centerbeams took the turn.  Maybe that was slack action.

Didn't sound like any slack action I ever heard in 51 years as a railroader.

[rdamon]

There was also a loud "boom" about 10-15 seconds before the centerbeams took the turn.  Maybe that was slack action.

[tree68]

blue streak 1

Did you notice how the center beam hit the overhead RR bridge column at :40 - :44?

And it was hung up there for quite some time.  I happened to be watching that cam when they brought it down.  There was a coal train on the bridge when the incident occurred.  It was removed and nothing else ran on the bridge for a while.  Haven't checked yet today.

The way the tank cars acted leads me to believe they were empty.  

[adkrr64]

And the snowplow guy in the Bobcat just keeps on plowing...

[blue streak 1]

Did you notice how the center beam hit the oveerhead RR bridge column at :40 - :44?

[BaltACD]

Flintlock76

Stringlining maybe?

And man, how that centerbeam car came apart!

The reverse of stringlining - however the same kind of cars are involved - light, long with a high center of gravity - Centerbeam flats.

The Buff forces from the rear of the movement pushed the 'weakest links' the centerbeams off to the outside of the curve.  

Why there was that much Buff Force in the movement is a whole nother question.

[jeffhergert]

Flintlock76

Stringlining maybe?

And man, how that centerbeam car came apart!

 

As close as those centerbeams were to one another, I'd say the slack was in and they were "ejected" from the train.  Some of the comments theorize a DP behind pushing, and from watching the action I tend to agree. 

DP's will remain at their last received command for 90 minutes if communication is lost.  If there were DPs back there, it is possible that a comm loss might've prevented the DPs from throttling down and providing a little too much tractive effort.  Or not, just speculating.  Something we all do.

Comments also say how much worse it could've been because of the tank cars involved.  I think the public, including railfans, has it ingrained that all tank cars burn or go boom when derailed, that all of them are carrying something hazardous.  I didn't see any placards, but the second and third cars appear to have a Quality Liquid Feeds logo on them.  I see them all the time, they have a facility on the CN, ex-IC, at Dunlap Iowa.

Jeff    

[tree68]

The suspended centerbeam flat has been removed from the bridge.  Now they've just got to clear out two more centerbeams and about three (empty) tank cars and fix the track (if necessary) and they can run trains on it again.

The bridge will need a good going over, though...

[Flintlock76]

Stringlining maybe?

And man, how that centerbeam car came apart!