Another Derailment at Santa Fe Jct Caught on Camera

[Electroliner 1935]

mudchicken

This is sooooo common a problem. While this was happening, BNSF suffered a short-chord derailment off the inside of a 7 deg 30min curve on a bridge on the South Platte in downtown Denver. Three empty center and end bulkhead lumber flats plus an empty grain hopper.

 BNSF train derails in Denver, cars end up in South Platte River | FOX31 Denver (kdvr.com) 

The cars have to be treated with respect. Rules about proper placement of empties have been around for as long as I can remember, especially out here in mountain country. Sounds like just another history repeating itself combination operating fail to me. No fancy band-aid fixes required.

Note that there is a switch on bridge but the men (in the video) do not seem to be looking at it. I suspect they are looking at the hanging car. Stringlining? How many times do these have to happen? Can they be handled without stringlining?

Are there situations where trying to start a train with these cars without stringlining is impossible? How much tonnage can be behind a centerbeam car when starting a train?

[BaltACD]

mudchicken

This is sooooo common a problem. While this was happening, BNSF suffered a short-chord derailment off the inside of a 7 deg 30min curve on a bridge on the South Platte in downtown Denver. Three empty center and end bulkhead lumber flats plus an empty grain hopper.

 BNSF train derails in Denver, cars end up in South Platte River | FOX31 Denver (kdvr.com) 

The cars have to be treated with respect. Rules about proper placement of empties have been around for as long as I can remember, especially out here in mountain country. Sounds like just another history repeating itself combination operating fail to me. No fancy band-aid fixes required.

Flatland Yardmasters building trains that operate in Grade territory and thinking the restrictions are so much 'hooey'; or PSR Terminal Management ordering specific tracks being made into a train without concern to the make up of cars that are in each of the track.

I feature that the second happening is more frequent than the former.

[mudchicken]

This is sooooo common a problem. While this was happening, BNSF suffered a short-chord derailment off the inside of a 7 deg 30min curve on a bridge on the South Platte in downtown Denver. Three empty center and end bulkhead lumber flats plus an empty grain hopper.

 BNSF train derails in Denver, cars end up in South Platte River | FOX31 Denver (kdvr.com) 

The cars have to be treated with respect. Rules about proper placement of empties have been around for as long as I can remember, especially out here in mountain country. Sounds like just another history repeating itself combination operating fail to me. No fancy band-aid fixes required.

[BaltACD]

Euclid

As I understand, the centerbeams are lighter empty than average cars of other types.  So I would expect that a train with centerbeams in the consist would be subject to special rules pertaining to their placement and to the application of both draft and buff stress in relation to curves they will encounter.  

Assuming that there is a specific rule to limit dynamic braking buff force in a train, how does that rule differ with trains not containing centerbeams versus trains with centerbeams. 

CSX Keystone Sub TTSI

5559 STEEP GRADE (1% OR MORE) TRAIN HANDLING

Brake Pipe Pressure –

The brake pipe pressure on the rear of eastward loaded trains must be 75lbs or higher prior to passing over summit at Sand Patch.

A running release of the train brake will not be made on eastward freight trains operating in this territory. When the total brake pipe reduction exceeds 18lbs on any eastward freight train operating Sand Patch to Hyndman, the train will be stopped. 30% hand brakes will be applied to the head end of the train to hold it on the grade during the recharge procedure.

If needed, hand brakes may be left on the train to supplement air brakes while descending the rest of the grade. Avoid leaving hand brakes on any empty cars. 

Use of pressure maintaining valves –

The controlling unit of the lead locomotive consist must be equipped with an operative pressure maintaining feature.

Dynamic brake requirements:

When possible, eastward trains having to add additional power to the head end of their train in order to comply with dynamic brake axles requirements to descend a grade must do so prior to passing Yoder, BF 218.4. If power cannot be added west of Yoder, the train must be properly secured while air brake test is performed.

Train handling –

Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains:

Cresting grade at Sand Patch and stopping and starting train Continuous Movement – As train crests grade, continue to use power and make a minimum reduction between 20 to 22MPH. Then gradually reduce throttle and apply dynamic brake in such a manner to have speed between 25 and 30 MPH, passing BF 208.0.

BF 191.1 to 202.0– Approaching BF 202.0, the grade becomes less severe and the speed restriction at BF 202.1 is reduced from 35 MPH to 30 MPH. Therefore, watch deceleration rate very closely, and apply power, if necessary, to keep speed between 25 and 30 MPH between BF 202.0 and BF 198.0. In the vicinity of BF 197.0, grade again increases and train speed will generally begin to increase. If this occurs, it may be necessary to apply dynamic brake or throttle to Hyndman BF 191.0. Then if conditions permit, release train brakes and handle the train in accordance with good train handling procedures.

BF 202.1 to 208.0– In the vicinity of BF 207.0, train speed will gradually increase due to the heavier grade. When this occurs, make additional light brake applications, if necessary, modulating the dynamic brake to hold speed between 32 and 34 MPH, between BF 206.8 and BF 202.1.

[Euclid]

As I understand, the centerbeams are lighter empty than average cars of other types.  So I would expect that a train with centerbeams in the consist would be subject to special rules pertaining to their placement and to the application of both draft and buff stress in relation to curves they will encounter. 

 

Assuming that there is a specific rule to limit dynamic braking buff force in a train, how does that rule differ with trains not containing centerbeams versus trains with centerbeams. 

[BaltACD]

Euclid

 

zugmann

Balt answered that one post before yours.  

Isn’t there more to it than that?  In addition to total trailing tonnage, I would expect rules on how the centerbeams are distributed in the train, the steepness of grades, degree of curves, train speed, braking force, and type of braking.   

CSX Baltimore Division Timetable

4466 PLACING EMPTY CARS IN TRAINS

Empty Car Placement Train Classification Instructions for Manifest Trains:

Empty cars 80 feet and longer (other than a box car) must be placed in the train in such a location that the trailing tonnage behind these empty cars does not exceed the amount listed below. In territory where helper locomotives are used on the rear of the train, their tonnage rating should be subtracted to the trailing tonnage listed below when determining the location for the restricted car(s):

Between Direction Tonnage
Hyndman & Sand Patch Westward 3,500
Connellsville & Sand Patch Eastward 5,100
Connellsville & New Castle Eastward & Westward 13,300

[Euclid]

zugmann

Balt answered that one post before yours. 

 

Isn’t there more to it than that?  In addition to total trailing tonnage, I would expect rules on how the centerbeams are distributed in the train, the steepness of grades, degree of curves, train speed, braking force, and type of braking.   

[zugmann]

Balt answered that one post before yours. 

[Euclid]

If center-beam cars are so unstable that they require special instructions for handling, which of those rules would have pertained to this particular derailment, and what would have prevented them from keeping this derailment from happening?

[BaltACD]

BigJim

 

BaltACD

 89 feet is a pretty good lever arm when it doesn't have sufficient weight to keep it from lifting off the rail. 

And, that is why they have a trailing tonnage restriction!

Thus the trailing tonnage restrictions CSX enforced on long empty cars when I was working.  I don't know if their embracing PSR has changed those restrictions.

[BigJim]

BaltACD

 89 feet is a pretty good lever arm when it doesn't have sufficient weight to keep it from lifting off the rail.

And, that is why they have a trailing tonnage restriction!

[BaltACD]

BigJim

 

Euclid

Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars? 

If you look them up, their light weight is about 32 tons. That is heavier than modern coal hoppers and about even with the covered hopper that was in front.

If 89 foot empty trailer flats were in the same location in trains the results would MOSTLY be the same, with the centerbeams being more likely to derail because of their higher center of gravity despite having a similar empty car weight.

89 feet is a pretty good lever arm when it doesn't have sufficient weight to keep it from lifting off the rail.

Who was it that postulated that if they had a long enough lever and the right fulcrum point they could lift the World?

[BigJim]

Euclid

Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars? 

If you look them up, their light weight is about 32 tons. That is heavier than modern coal hoppers and about even with the covered hopper that was in front.

[adkrr64]

SD70Dude

We have a daily 'unit train' of them, symbol M347, Chicago (Kirk yard) to Prince George, BC.  Often over 10,000' and all empty centrebeams.  You have to keep pulling even when going downhill.........

I think I might have seen that train when I rode the Canadian a few years back. Don't remember exactly where it was, but I do remember sitting there, watching it go into a siding, and the empty centerbeams just kept going and going and going...

[SD70Dude]

zugmann

empty centerbeams were also known as sailboats.   They had a habit of being blown around in strong winds at hump yards - sometimes up the hump itself. 

We have a daily 'unit train' of them, symbol M347, Chicago (Kirk yard) to Prince George, BC.  Often over 10,000' and all empty centrebeams.  You have to keep pulling even when going downhill.........

[Euclid]

BaltACD

 

Euclid

What exactly is it about the design of long centerbeams....  Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars?  If so, how do they get by with a lighter empty weight while having the same load capacity as typical railcars? 

 

Their length gives them a longer lever arm for forces, buff or draft, to work upon.  Light weight, long lever - Bingo, Bango, Bongo.

 

That makes sense.  The longer the lever is, the greater the angle is between two cars in a curve.   Then the greater the angle is, the easier it is for the buff force to trigger the buckling of the train.

 

This video is an excellent instructive reference illustration of that principle.

[BaltACD]

Murphy Siding

 

Euclid

What exactly is it about the design of long centerbeams....  Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars?  If so, how do they get by with a lighter empty weight while having the same load capacity as typical railcars? 

Um, because they have a lighter empty weight, they can carry more freight while having the same load capacity as typical rail cars.

Coming up next- magnets, what's the deal with them? 

Their length gives them a longer lever arm for forces, buff or draft, to work upon.  Light weight, long lever - Bingo, Bango, Bongo.

[zugmann]

empty centerbeams were also known as sailboats.   They had a habit of being blown around in strong winds at hump yards - sometimes up the hump itself. 

[Murphy Siding]

Euclid

What exactly is it about the design of long centerbeams....  Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars?  If so, how do they get by with a lighter empty weight while having the same load capacity as typical railcars?

 

 

Um, because they have a lighter empty weight, they can carry more freight while having the same load capacity as typical rail cars.

Coming up next- magnets, what's the deal with them? 

[Euclid]

What exactly is it about the design of long centerbeams that interferes with their ability when empty to hold the rail in sharp curves?  Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars?  If so, how do they get by with a lighter empty weight while having the same load capacity as typical railcars?

 

Aside from changing the car design, why can’t they control the problem by limiting the buff force the cars are subjected to?  Since centerbeams are more vulnerable to derailment, don’t they have special instructions to reduce that danger?  If high buff forces can jackknife them on curves, are they also vulnerable to the buff force from trailing DPU?

[zugmann]

SD70Dude

Putting empty ones near the head end of a long, heavy train never has been a good idea.  

You just don't see the big picture. 

[SD70Dude]

Too many centrebeams have run too many miles successfully for too many years for them to be considered a bad design.  

Putting empty ones near the head end of a long, heavy train never has been a good idea.  

[BaltACD]

Since it has been repeatedly demonstrated that long EMPTY centerbeam flat cars cannot hold the rail when a high level if draft force is applied to the cars in curves and this derailment tends to show the long EMPTY centerbeam flat cars cannot hold the rail when subjected to a high level of buff forces in a curve - should the railroads continue to use long centerbeam flat cars?

[Euclid]

Electroliner 1935

Looking again at the composit video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9VIWVlCIlg

This leads me to wonder if the engineer was using the automatic brake and one of the lead cars dynamited. Then the force from the train found the weak spot, CB1 & CB2 and they did what CB's do. 

In looking at the video in the sequence showing the derailment, you can hear the train dynamite at 1:45, which is a few seconds after the derailment began.  So that indicates that the dynamiting was the effect of the derailment parting the trainline, as opposed to the dynamiting occurring first and thus causing the derailment. 

 

I speculate that there was ongoing buff force due to braking on the downgrade, and that buff force was just too high for the centerbeams to hold the rail on the curve.  So the curve was the triggering event (although there is one other possible explanation).

 

Regarding the bridge strike, it seems to me that the centerbeam design is perfectly suited to have the car deck sliced lengthwise by a steel bridge column. The centerbeam design is with lighter members, but more of them compared to the underframe of most freight cars.  So the centerbeam cross sills are individually small enough to be relatively easily sheared one at a time by the bridge column which is positioned along the far side of the center sill of the car. 

 

I believe (SPECULATION ALERT) that had the car striking the bridge column been a covered hopper or most any other type of railcar, the strike would have taken down the column.   Surely the train force was sufficient to take down the column, but the centerbeam car simply had no concentration of strength that could not be overcome by the slicing impact with the column. 

 

The strength of the centerbeam framing is diffused to a uniformity sufficient to resist the broad collective forces that the car encounters, but not to resist concentrated forces such as the narrow steel column. 

 

Also, I suspect that centerbeam car would have taken down the bridge column if the car struck the bridge column with its center sill perfectly aligned with the bridge column. 

 

[tree68]

Paul of Covington

   I am no expert on bridge design, but I was more concerned that the top of that bridge support moved slightly when the centerbeam car hit it, which I would think meant that its attachment to the road bed support broke loose.  Any comments? 

Nor am I, and I didn't stay at that hotel, either, but...

Sometimes there is no solid connection between the bridge and the support, so as to account for expansion, etc.  Sometimes there are even rollers at the point of contact.

I did see a close-up of damage to the vertical member.  Unless it was bent beyond tolerances, I'm sure it's bean dealt with.

[Paul of Covington]

Electroliner 1935

Is anyone conversent on bridge beam  design. What stresses are vertical I-beams in and when their flanges are deformed, are they reparable or as I suspect can they have additional reiforcing added to bring them up to design strength. My concept is straiten the I-Beam and weld an additional steel plate to it.

   I am no expert on bridge design, but I was more concerned that the top of that bridge support moved slightly when the centerbeam car hit it, which I would think meant that its attachment to the road bed support broke loose.  Any comments? 

[jeffhergert]

BaltACD

 

 

jeffhergert

As I recall, and I'd have to look it up to be sure, but a service braking wave travels about 250 feet per second.  An emergency application travels about 960 feet per second.

To control speed, UP stresses throttle modulation, dynamic braking and dynamic with automatic air braking.  In that order.  (Local instructions may override system instructions.)  In the real world some times using the automatic brake first is the proper thing to do. 

On trains over a certain size if you have to use air they prefer stopping before releasing the air.  No running releases.  Unless EMS - the computer - tells you to. 

Jeff   

 

 

Isn't a running Automatic Brake Test required any longer after a crew change or after getting an originating train out an running on the road?

 

It is a requirement for passenger trains, but not required for freight trains. 

I have some air brake/train handling rules going back to 1922 for various railroads.  I know it's always been a passenger requirement, but I don't recall it for freight.  I'll have to recheck some to be sure.

Jeff

[Electroliner 1935]

Looking again at the composit video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9VIWVlCIlg

@2:16 the covered hopper (CH1) has the first centerbeam car (CB1) tight on its coupler and all wheels on the rail. but then if you advance it as nearly frame by frame as you can you see the first centerbeam car (CB1) and its following centerbeam (CB2) car lift up a little and then the CB1 & CH1 cars lift together and the the CH1 trucks return to the rail while CB1 & CB2 joint ends lift off and jackknife. This leads me to wonder if the engineer was using the automatic brake and one of the lead cars dynamited. Then the force from the train found the weak spot, CB1 & CB2 and they did what CB's do. 

Is anyone conversent on bridge beam  design. What stresses are vertical I-beams in and when their flanges are deformed, are they reparable or as I suspect can they have additional reiforcing added to bring them up to design strength. My concept is straiten the I-Beam and weld an additional steel plate to it.

[BaltACD]

jeffhergert

As I recall, and I'd have to look it up to be sure, but a service braking wave travels about 250 feet per second.  An emergency application travels about 960 feet per second.

To control speed, UP stresses throttle modulation, dynamic braking and dynamic with automatic air braking.  In that order.  (Local instructions may override system instructions.)  In the real world some times using the automatic brake first is the proper thing to do. 

On trains over a certain size if you have to use air they prefer stopping before releasing the air.  No running releases.  Unless EMS - the computer - tells you to. 

Jeff   

Isn't a running Automatic Brake Test required any longer after a crew change or after getting an originating train out an running on the road?