blhanel jeffhergert There was no DP. The train wasn't very big, about 2/3 loads. When they came into view, just about the time they started to derail, the slack was definitely in from looking at the centerbeam flats. They have cushioned, long travel drawbars and there doesn't seem to be too much room between them. Someone in the chat at the time indicated that the train was a 10,000 footer. Derailed cars were only 20-30 back from the engines- still lots of inertia behind them.
jeffhergert There was no DP. The train wasn't very big, about 2/3 loads. When they came into view, just about the time they started to derail, the slack was definitely in from looking at the centerbeam flats. They have cushioned, long travel drawbars and there doesn't seem to be too much room between them.
There was no DP. The train wasn't very big, about 2/3 loads. When they came into view, just about the time they started to derail, the slack was definitely in from looking at the centerbeam flats. They have cushioned, long travel drawbars and there doesn't seem to be too much room between them.
Someone in the chat at the time indicated that the train was a 10,000 footer. Derailed cars were only 20-30 back from the engines- still lots of inertia behind them.
It only showed about 3700 feet out of Des Moines. And everything "set out" at a reporting location before SF Jct, but SF Jct shows a passing time about the same as the time stamp on the video. There was a pick up indicated in the KC complex that put it about 10000 feet leaving the KC area.
!0000 feet would seem more plausible for that to happen. And it wouldn't be the first time the system didn't have the correct car count (or even cars) shown. (For awhile, we were having trouble with one train coming off the BRC. Paperwork wouldn't match the train. One was so bad the FRA caught wind of it and wasn't happy.)
Train was MDMNL-01. No hyphen between the first letter (train type) and the station letter codes. That's more of a BNSF thing. Manifest, Des Moines to North Little Rock.
Jeff
As I recall, and I'd have to look it up to be sure, but a service braking wave travels about 250 feet per second. An emergency application travels about 960 feet per second.
To control speed, UP stresses throttle modulation, dynamic braking and dynamic with automatic air braking. In that order. (Local instructions may override system instructions.) In the real world some times using the automatic brake first is the proper thing to do.
On trains over a certain size if you have to use air they prefer stopping before releasing the air. No running releases. Unless EMS - the computer - tells you to.
jeffhergertAs I recall, and I'd have to look it up to be sure, but a service braking wave travels about 250 feet per second. An emergency application travels about 960 feet per second. To control speed, UP stresses throttle modulation, dynamic braking and dynamic with automatic air braking. In that order. (Local instructions may override system instructions.) In the real world some times using the automatic brake first is the proper thing to do. On trains over a certain size if you have to use air they prefer stopping before releasing the air. No running releases. Unless EMS - the computer - tells you to. Jeff
Isn't a running Automatic Brake Test required any longer after a crew change or after getting an originating train out an running on the road?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Looking again at the composit video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9VIWVlCIlg
@2:16 the covered hopper (CH1) has the first centerbeam car (CB1) tight on its coupler and all wheels on the rail. but then if you advance it as nearly frame by frame as you can you see the first centerbeam car (CB1) and its following centerbeam (CB2) car lift up a little and then the CB1 & CH1 cars lift together and the the CH1 trucks return to the rail while CB1 & CB2 joint ends lift off and jackknife. This leads me to wonder if the engineer was using the automatic brake and one of the lead cars dynamited. Then the force from the train found the weak spot, CB1 & CB2 and they did what CB's do.
Is anyone conversent on bridge beam design. What stresses are vertical I-beams in and when their flanges are deformed, are they reparable or as I suspect can they have additional reiforcing added to bring them up to design strength. My concept is straiten the I-Beam and weld an additional steel plate to it.
BaltACD jeffhergert As I recall, and I'd have to look it up to be sure, but a service braking wave travels about 250 feet per second. An emergency application travels about 960 feet per second. To control speed, UP stresses throttle modulation, dynamic braking and dynamic with automatic air braking. In that order. (Local instructions may override system instructions.) In the real world some times using the automatic brake first is the proper thing to do. On trains over a certain size if you have to use air they prefer stopping before releasing the air. No running releases. Unless EMS - the computer - tells you to. Jeff Isn't a running Automatic Brake Test required any longer after a crew change or after getting an originating train out an running on the road?
jeffhergert As I recall, and I'd have to look it up to be sure, but a service braking wave travels about 250 feet per second. An emergency application travels about 960 feet per second. To control speed, UP stresses throttle modulation, dynamic braking and dynamic with automatic air braking. In that order. (Local instructions may override system instructions.) In the real world some times using the automatic brake first is the proper thing to do. On trains over a certain size if you have to use air they prefer stopping before releasing the air. No running releases. Unless EMS - the computer - tells you to. Jeff
It is a requirement for passenger trains, but not required for freight trains.
I have some air brake/train handling rules going back to 1922 for various railroads. I know it's always been a passenger requirement, but I don't recall it for freight. I'll have to recheck some to be sure.
Electroliner 1935Is anyone conversent on bridge beam design. What stresses are vertical I-beams in and when their flanges are deformed, are they reparable or as I suspect can they have additional reiforcing added to bring them up to design strength. My concept is straiten the I-Beam and weld an additional steel plate to it.
I am no expert on bridge design, but I was more concerned that the top of that bridge support moved slightly when the centerbeam car hit it, which I would think meant that its attachment to the road bed support broke loose. Any comments?
_____________
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Paul of Covington I am no expert on bridge design, but I was more concerned that the top of that bridge support moved slightly when the centerbeam car hit it, which I would think meant that its attachment to the road bed support broke loose. Any comments?
Nor am I, and I didn't stay at that hotel, either, but...
Sometimes there is no solid connection between the bridge and the support, so as to account for expansion, etc. Sometimes there are even rollers at the point of contact.
I did see a close-up of damage to the vertical member. Unless it was bent beyond tolerances, I'm sure it's bean dealt with.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Electroliner 1935 Looking again at the composit video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9VIWVlCIlg This leads me to wonder if the engineer was using the automatic brake and one of the lead cars dynamited. Then the force from the train found the weak spot, CB1 & CB2 and they did what CB's do.
This leads me to wonder if the engineer was using the automatic brake and one of the lead cars dynamited. Then the force from the train found the weak spot, CB1 & CB2 and they did what CB's do.
Since it has been repeatedly demonstrated that long EMPTY centerbeam flat cars cannot hold the rail when a high level if draft force is applied to the cars in curves and this derailment tends to show the long EMPTY centerbeam flat cars cannot hold the rail when subjected to a high level of buff forces in a curve - should the railroads continue to use long centerbeam flat cars?
Too many centrebeams have run too many miles successfully for too many years for them to be considered a bad design.
Putting empty ones near the head end of a long, heavy train never has been a good idea.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudePutting empty ones near the head end of a long, heavy train never has been a good idea.
You just don't see the big picture.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Euclid What exactly is it about the design of long centerbeams.... Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars? If so, how do they get by with a lighter empty weight while having the same load capacity as typical railcars?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
empty centerbeams were also known as sailboats. They had a habit of being blown around in strong winds at hump yards - sometimes up the hump itself.
Murphy Siding Euclid What exactly is it about the design of long centerbeams.... Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars? If so, how do they get by with a lighter empty weight while having the same load capacity as typical railcars? Um, because they have a lighter empty weight, they can carry more freight while having the same load capacity as typical rail cars.Coming up next- magnets, what's the deal with them?
Um, because they have a lighter empty weight, they can carry more freight while having the same load capacity as typical rail cars.Coming up next- magnets, what's the deal with them?
Their length gives them a longer lever arm for forces, buff or draft, to work upon. Light weight, long lever - Bingo, Bango, Bongo.
BaltACD Euclid What exactly is it about the design of long centerbeams.... Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars? If so, how do they get by with a lighter empty weight while having the same load capacity as typical railcars?
zugmann empty centerbeams were also known as sailboats. They had a habit of being blown around in strong winds at hump yards - sometimes up the hump itself.
We have a daily 'unit train' of them, symbol M347, Chicago (Kirk yard) to Prince George, BC. Often over 10,000' and all empty centrebeams. You have to keep pulling even when going downhill.........
SD70DudeWe have a daily 'unit train' of them, symbol M347, Chicago (Kirk yard) to Prince George, BC. Often over 10,000' and all empty centrebeams. You have to keep pulling even when going downhill.........
I think I might have seen that train when I rode the Canadian a few years back. Don't remember exactly where it was, but I do remember sitting there, watching it go into a siding, and the empty centerbeams just kept going and going and going...
Euclid Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars?
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BigJim Euclid Do they have a lighter empty weight than typical railcars? If you look them up, their light weight is about 32 tons. That is heavier than modern coal hoppers and about even with the covered hopper that was in front.
If you look them up, their light weight is about 32 tons. That is heavier than modern coal hoppers and about even with the covered hopper that was in front.
If 89 foot empty trailer flats were in the same location in trains the results would MOSTLY be the same, with the centerbeams being more likely to derail because of their higher center of gravity despite having a similar empty car weight.
89 feet is a pretty good lever arm when it doesn't have sufficient weight to keep it from lifting off the rail.
Who was it that postulated that if they had a long enough lever and the right fulcrum point they could lift the World?
BaltACD 89 feet is a pretty good lever arm when it doesn't have sufficient weight to keep it from lifting off the rail.
And, that is why they have a trailing tonnage restriction!
BigJim BaltACD 89 feet is a pretty good lever arm when it doesn't have sufficient weight to keep it from lifting off the rail. And, that is why they have a trailing tonnage restriction!
Thus the trailing tonnage restrictions CSX enforced on long empty cars when I was working. I don't know if their embracing PSR has changed those restrictions.
Balt answered that one post before yours.
zugmann Balt answered that one post before yours.
Euclid zugmann Balt answered that one post before yours. Isn’t there more to it than that? In addition to total trailing tonnage, I would expect rules on how the centerbeams are distributed in the train, the steepness of grades, degree of curves, train speed, braking force, and type of braking.
CSX Baltimore Division Timetable 4466 PLACING EMPTY CARS IN TRAINS Empty Car Placement Train Classification Instructions for Manifest Trains: Empty cars 80 feet and longer (other than a box car) must be placed in the train in such a location that the trailing tonnage behind these empty cars does not exceed the amount listed below. In territory where helper locomotives are used on the rear of the train, their tonnage rating should be subtracted to the trailing tonnage listed below when determining the location for the restricted car(s): Between Direction TonnageHyndman & Sand Patch Westward 3,500Connellsville & Sand Patch Eastward 5,100Connellsville & New Castle Eastward & Westward 13,300
4466 PLACING EMPTY CARS IN TRAINS
Empty Car Placement Train Classification Instructions for Manifest Trains:
Empty cars 80 feet and longer (other than a box car) must be placed in the train in such a location that the trailing tonnage behind these empty cars does not exceed the amount listed below. In territory where helper locomotives are used on the rear of the train, their tonnage rating should be subtracted to the trailing tonnage listed below when determining the location for the restricted car(s):
Between Direction TonnageHyndman & Sand Patch Westward 3,500Connellsville & Sand Patch Eastward 5,100Connellsville & New Castle Eastward & Westward 13,300
EuclidAs I understand, the centerbeams are lighter empty than average cars of other types. So I would expect that a train with centerbeams in the consist would be subject to special rules pertaining to their placement and to the application of both draft and buff stress in relation to curves they will encounter. Assuming that there is a specific rule to limit dynamic braking buff force in a train, how does that rule differ with trains not containing centerbeams versus trains with centerbeams.
CSX Keystone Sub TTSI 5559 STEEP GRADE (1% OR MORE) TRAIN HANDLING Brake Pipe Pressure – The brake pipe pressure on the rear of eastward loaded trains must be 75lbs or higher prior to passing over summit at Sand Patch. A running release of the train brake will not be made on eastward freight trains operating in this territory. When the total brake pipe reduction exceeds 18lbs on any eastward freight train operating Sand Patch to Hyndman, the train will be stopped. 30% hand brakes will be applied to the head end of the train to hold it on the grade during the recharge procedure. If needed, hand brakes may be left on the train to supplement air brakes while descending the rest of the grade. Avoid leaving hand brakes on any empty cars. Use of pressure maintaining valves – The controlling unit of the lead locomotive consist must be equipped with an operative pressure maintaining feature. Dynamic brake requirements: When possible, eastward trains having to add additional power to the head end of their train in order to comply with dynamic brake axles requirements to descend a grade must do so prior to passing Yoder, BF 218.4. If power cannot be added west of Yoder, the train must be properly secured while air brake test is performed. Train handling – Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains: Cresting grade at Sand Patch and stopping and starting train Continuous Movement – As train crests grade, continue to use power and make a minimum reduction between 20 to 22MPH. Then gradually reduce throttle and apply dynamic brake in such a manner to have speed between 25 and 30 MPH, passing BF 208.0. BF 191.1 to 202.0– Approaching BF 202.0, the grade becomes less severe and the speed restriction at BF 202.1 is reduced from 35 MPH to 30 MPH. Therefore, watch deceleration rate very closely, and apply power, if necessary, to keep speed between 25 and 30 MPH between BF 202.0 and BF 198.0. In the vicinity of BF 197.0, grade again increases and train speed will generally begin to increase. If this occurs, it may be necessary to apply dynamic brake or throttle to Hyndman BF 191.0. Then if conditions permit, release train brakes and handle the train in accordance with good train handling procedures. BF 202.1 to 208.0– In the vicinity of BF 207.0, train speed will gradually increase due to the heavier grade. When this occurs, make additional light brake applications, if necessary, modulating the dynamic brake to hold speed between 32 and 34 MPH, between BF 206.8 and BF 202.1.
5559 STEEP GRADE (1% OR MORE) TRAIN HANDLING
Brake Pipe Pressure –
The brake pipe pressure on the rear of eastward loaded trains must be 75lbs or higher prior to passing over summit at Sand Patch.
A running release of the train brake will not be made on eastward freight trains operating in this territory. When the total brake pipe reduction exceeds 18lbs on any eastward freight train operating Sand Patch to Hyndman, the train will be stopped. 30% hand brakes will be applied to the head end of the train to hold it on the grade during the recharge procedure.
If needed, hand brakes may be left on the train to supplement air brakes while descending the rest of the grade. Avoid leaving hand brakes on any empty cars.
Use of pressure maintaining valves –
The controlling unit of the lead locomotive consist must be equipped with an operative pressure maintaining feature.
Dynamic brake requirements:
When possible, eastward trains having to add additional power to the head end of their train in order to comply with dynamic brake axles requirements to descend a grade must do so prior to passing Yoder, BF 218.4. If power cannot be added west of Yoder, the train must be properly secured while air brake test is performed.
Train handling – Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains:
Stretch braking is permitted for Eastward Trains:
Cresting grade at Sand Patch and stopping and starting train Continuous Movement – As train crests grade, continue to use power and make a minimum reduction between 20 to 22MPH. Then gradually reduce throttle and apply dynamic brake in such a manner to have speed between 25 and 30 MPH, passing BF 208.0.
BF 191.1 to 202.0– Approaching BF 202.0, the grade becomes less severe and the speed restriction at BF 202.1 is reduced from 35 MPH to 30 MPH. Therefore, watch deceleration rate very closely, and apply power, if necessary, to keep speed between 25 and 30 MPH between BF 202.0 and BF 198.0. In the vicinity of BF 197.0, grade again increases and train speed will generally begin to increase. If this occurs, it may be necessary to apply dynamic brake or throttle to Hyndman BF 191.0. Then if conditions permit, release train brakes and handle the train in accordance with good train handling procedures.
BF 202.1 to 208.0– In the vicinity of BF 207.0, train speed will gradually increase due to the heavier grade. When this occurs, make additional light brake applications, if necessary, modulating the dynamic brake to hold speed between 32 and 34 MPH, between BF 206.8 and BF 202.1.
This is sooooo common a problem. While this was happening, BNSF suffered a short-chord derailment off the inside of a 7 deg 30min curve on a bridge on the South Platte in downtown Denver. Three empty center and end bulkhead lumber flats plus an empty grain hopper.
BNSF train derails in Denver, cars end up in South Platte River | FOX31 Denver (kdvr.com)
The cars have to be treated with respect. Rules about proper placement of empties have been around for as long as I can remember, especially out here in mountain country. Sounds like just another history repeating itself combination operating fail to me. No fancy band-aid fixes required.
mudchickenThis is sooooo common a problem. While this was happening, BNSF suffered a short-chord derailment off the inside of a 7 deg 30min curve on a bridge on the South Platte in downtown Denver. Three empty center and end bulkhead lumber flats plus an empty grain hopper. BNSF train derails in Denver, cars end up in South Platte River | FOX31 Denver (kdvr.com) The cars have to be treated with respect. Rules about proper placement of empties have been around for as long as I can remember, especially out here in mountain country. Sounds like just another history repeating itself combination operating fail to me. No fancy band-aid fixes required.
Flatland Yardmasters building trains that operate in Grade territory and thinking the restrictions are so much 'hooey'; or PSR Terminal Management ordering specific tracks being made into a train without concern to the make up of cars that are in each of the track.
I feature that the second happening is more frequent than the former.
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