BaltACDHow it all works is beyond my pay grade.
Agreed. So far, my broken ankle has cost me for one med that apparently my insurance and Medicare don't want to cover. Aside from that - two operations and other visits, I haven't paid anything.
Then again, I paid in beaucoup bucks each month for years without costing them a cent. I"m not going to try to do the math to see if I'm breaking even...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Euclid Gramp A company a friend works for reconditions large cylinders. As large as 177,000#. Their culture is imbued with safety first, quality second, productivity third. Top of the organization to bottom. They're very profitable. Too bad railways don't follow suit. I can see how safety could be a tradeoff with profit or productivity. But why should safety be a tradeoff with quality? I would make quality & safety first; and profit & productivity second.
Gramp A company a friend works for reconditions large cylinders. As large as 177,000#. Their culture is imbued with safety first, quality second, productivity third. Top of the organization to bottom. They're very profitable. Too bad railways don't follow suit.
I can see how safety could be a tradeoff with profit or productivity. But why should safety be a tradeoff with quality?
I would make quality & safety first; and profit & productivity second.
One can usually see and do things better without safety glasses and protective gear. Would you choose safety or quality.
MidlandMikeOne can usually see and do things better without safety glasses and protective gear. Would you choose safety or quality.
It's not a question of one or the other.
I believe it's right in most railroad rulebooks - "When in doubt, take the safe course."
Something can be done right, and safely.
tree68 MidlandMike One can usually see and do things better without safety glasses and protective gear. Would you choose safety or quality. It's not a question of one or the other.
MidlandMike One can usually see and do things better without safety glasses and protective gear. Would you choose safety or quality.
It was a rhetorical question. I was anticipating most people on this forum would chose safety first.
MidlandMike Euclid Gramp A company a friend works for reconditions large cylinders. As large as 177,000#. Their culture is imbued with safety first, quality second, productivity third. Top of the organization to bottom. They're very profitable. Too bad railways don't follow suit. I can see how safety could be a tradeoff with profit or productivity. But why should safety be a tradeoff with quality? I would make quality & safety first; and profit & productivity second. One can usually see and do things better without safety glasses and protective gear. Would you choose safety or quality.
I think the gist of it is that people are intrinsically valued highly there, and that ends up being reflected in the results.
CMStPnP SD60MAC9500 Well it appears Maine potatoes are hitting the rails again! Albeit in a much reduced capacity... Anyhow.. Roughly 3 weeks ago LaJoie Growers LLC/Grand Prix Inc. Shipped two UP reefers full of Maine Russet potatoes billed to the West Coast. I can't share the video here, but if you have a Linkedin account. Login to view the video. Here's the link. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jay-lajoie-00701939_our-first-two-of-many-up-rail-cars-full-of-ugcPost-6877533451751317504-ufE6 Not sure if this traffic will redevelop, and in order for it too. Rails will have to show consistent reliability. Don't let Penn Central leave a bad taste in your mouth.. This traffic can be regained if the C1's want it. I think this is good news but one item I have always wondered is if they could get the perishible freight expedited in a hot shot type train through Chicago FAST, without all the typical delays and around the congestion. I trully wonder if more perishible West to East Coast and vice versa traffic could not be handled. Because the only reason in my view that rail does not have more of this traffic segment is total shipping time and in my view the culprit is Chicago and it's congestion. Get a train to the West or East Coast in less than 4 days and you got a winner for perishable traffic......in my view.
SD60MAC9500 Well it appears Maine potatoes are hitting the rails again! Albeit in a much reduced capacity... Anyhow.. Roughly 3 weeks ago LaJoie Growers LLC/Grand Prix Inc. Shipped two UP reefers full of Maine Russet potatoes billed to the West Coast. I can't share the video here, but if you have a Linkedin account. Login to view the video. Here's the link. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jay-lajoie-00701939_our-first-two-of-many-up-rail-cars-full-of-ugcPost-6877533451751317504-ufE6 Not sure if this traffic will redevelop, and in order for it too. Rails will have to show consistent reliability. Don't let Penn Central leave a bad taste in your mouth.. This traffic can be regained if the C1's want it.
I think this is good news but one item I have always wondered is if they could get the perishible freight expedited in a hot shot type train through Chicago FAST, without all the typical delays and around the congestion. I trully wonder if more perishible West to East Coast and vice versa traffic could not be handled. Because the only reason in my view that rail does not have more of this traffic segment is total shipping time and in my view the culprit is Chicago and it's congestion. Get a train to the West or East Coast in less than 4 days and you got a winner for perishable traffic......in my view.
When UP and CSX ran cold connect. The only delay was a crew change and 1000 mile inspection in Chicago. Power ran through as well so there was another delay eliminated. Chicago is more so less a problem for run through service.
It's my point of view that all boxcar perishables traffic needs to become an intermodal product. Constructing of "cold parks" that can load; trailer, containers, and boxcars. Give the customer a choice of unit to load their product based on their needs. I don't think the C1's are interested in the concept, but 3PL's such as Savage, and WATCO appear to be heading this route.
greyhounds OK, as a former marketing guy I just find this stuff fascinating: https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/Todays_Reports/reports/pots0920.pdf What I see is revenue and profits. Maine produces 3.94% of the potatoes in the US. Idaho and Washington produce 56.51%. (Page 8) And people here eat a lot of potato stuff. (65.5 pounds retail weight for every man, woman and child in 2019) So, focus on Idaho and Washington. If I was the head UP honcho (in my wildest dreams) I'd call in the VP of marketing, the VP of operations, and the VP of finance. I'd tell them if one load of potatoes went east of Denver by truck, or South of Salt Lake City by truck, or west of Reno by truck, they'd better have a very good explanation. And do not forget about the onions and apples.
OK, as a former marketing guy I just find this stuff fascinating:
https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/Todays_Reports/reports/pots0920.pdf
What I see is revenue and profits. Maine produces 3.94% of the potatoes in the US. Idaho and Washington produce 56.51%. (Page 8) And people here eat a lot of potato stuff. (65.5 pounds retail weight for every man, woman and child in 2019) So, focus on Idaho and Washington.
If I was the head UP honcho (in my wildest dreams) I'd call in the VP of marketing, the VP of operations, and the VP of finance. I'd tell them if one load of potatoes went east of Denver by truck, or South of Salt Lake City by truck, or west of Reno by truck, they'd better have a very good explanation.
And do not forget about the onions and apples.
Savage operating the IM ramp in Pocatello, ID should give UP an incentive to haul this traffic. Savage can solicit and build the business, build the trains. UP would be glad to hook and haul.
Couple of points here:
1. CSX / UP used to run the "Apple Train" to the Albany area...it was well covered by the transportation press. I watched the trains on a number of times, usually about 30-50 cars with 3 big UP motors. It usually ran about 2-3 x a week. Unsure why the service ended, probably the originator of the traffic on the west coast couldnt make a profit.
2. Today CSX averages about 10-15 refers per day on their Q368 - Chicago - Selkirk (Albany) train. Most of those refers are UP branded. It is possible that the Cold Express Apple Train freight moved to regular service.
3. Those empties return back west. What better way to return the expensive cars than to haul up to Maine, pickup a couple loads of tators and haul west!
4. A few months ago we discussed the NS LTL (LCL) service out of Chicago to Atlanta and also the East Coast. I actually talked to a NS rep in Chicago who knew a little about it and he referred me to the Chicago rep handling it. I left a message, he never called back. I have a number of LTL contacts in Chicago that would have been a natural fit on this service, not only for local pickup but also to market it as part of their total LTL service. The boxcar on 20E disappeared...until this week when a box car was spotted on the Chicago - NJ intermodal. Hopefully that service can grow...it needs to as LTL service is stretched thin these days.
Ed
MP173Couple of points here: 1. CSX / UP used to run the "Apple Train" to the Albany area...it was well covered by the transportation press. I watched the trains on a number of times, usually about 30-50 cars with 3 big UP motors. It usually ran about 2-3 x a week. Unsure why the service ended, probably the originator of the traffic on the west coast couldnt make a profit. 2. Today CSX averages about 10-15 refers per day on their Q368 - Chicago - Selkirk (Albany) train. Most of those refers are UP branded. It is possible that the Cold Express Apple Train freight moved to regular service. 3. Those empties return back west. What better way to return the expensive cars than to haul up to Maine, pickup a couple loads of tators and haul west! 4. A few months ago we discussed the NS LTL (LCL) service out of Chicago to Atlanta and also the East Coast. I actually talked to a NS rep in Chicago who knew a little about it and he referred me to the Chicago rep handling it. I left a message, he never called back. I have a number of LTL contacts in Chicago that would have been a natural fit on this service, not only for local pickup but also to market it as part of their total LTL service. The boxcar on 20E disappeared...until this week when a box car was spotted on the Chicago - NJ intermodal. Hopefully that service can grow...it needs to as LTL service is stretched thin these days. Ed
Who is the car owner and how many cars are in the PNW to Albany area service? Routing the cars to Maine for spuds would add 4 to 7 days to the cycle time for the fleet that is in that service.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDI don't think anyone can make sense out of all the competing profit motives from all the parties involved in the medical-industrial complex. This Summer I had issues with both my 'exhaust' systems. Issues with my bladder, one kidney and my regular 5 year colonoscopy. Medicare was billed in excess of $59K. Medicare 'approved' payments of over $21K, Medicare actually paid a little over $20K. My 'medicare supplement' policy paid out over $3K. To date my out of pocket payments have been less than $115. How it all works is beyond my pay grade. Add Q
My Aunt is a Catholic Nun and her order runs a chain of private hospitals. They each have a rather large fund to cover patients bills where payment falls short, they are Non-Profits but have excess cash to burn each year because of the money they make and that is how they do it. They can cover x amount of poor people as well that cannot afford to pay any of their bills and they cover them as well but only up to a specific number they budget for.
SD60MAC9500When UP and CSX ran cold connect. The only delay was a crew change and 1000 mile inspection in Chicago. Power ran through as well so there was another delay eliminated. Chicago is more so less a problem for run through service. It's my point of view that all boxcar perishables traffic needs to become an intermodal product. Constructing of "cold parks" that can load; trailer, containers, and boxcars. Give the customer a choice of unit to load their product based on their needs. I don't think the C1's are interested in the concept, but 3PL's such as Savage, and WATCO appear to be heading this route.
I'd like to see more perishables carried, I think it is a market segment the rails have not paid much attention too, so we'll see how WATCO does with it.
MP173 Couple of points here: 1. CSX / UP used to run the "Apple Train" to the Albany area...it was well covered by the transportation press. I watched the trains on a number of times, usually about 30-50 cars with 3 big UP motors. It usually ran about 2-3 x a week. Unsure why the service ended, probably the originator of the traffic on the west coast couldnt make a profit. 2. Today CSX averages about 10-15 refers per day on their Q368 - Chicago - Selkirk (Albany) train. Most of those refers are UP branded. It is possible that the Cold Express Apple Train freight moved to regular service. 3. Those empties return back west. What better way to return the expensive cars than to haul up to Maine, pickup a couple loads of tators and haul west! 4. A few months ago we discussed the NS LTL (LCL) service out of Chicago to Atlanta and also the East Coast. I actually talked to a NS rep in Chicago who knew a little about it and he referred me to the Chicago rep handling it. I left a message, he never called back. I have a number of LTL contacts in Chicago that would have been a natural fit on this service, not only for local pickup but also to market it as part of their total LTL service. The boxcar on 20E disappeared...until this week when a box car was spotted on the Chicago - NJ intermodal. Hopefully that service can grow...it needs to as LTL service is stretched thin these days. Ed
RailEx was the original company that started the perishable train. (We called them the Salad Shooters.) The original operation was in Washington state. A second train was put on out of California. The trains would at first be separate, but gradually started getting combined eastward/split westbound in Wyoming. UP eventually bought RailEx. I believe it was marketed as Cold Connect and was shut down a year or so back. RailEx had plans for a train to the Southeastern US, but I don't think it ever got beyond the planning change.
Anecdotally, I'm not sure that a lot of that RailEx business still goes by rail. At least in mechanical reefers. Maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath, some has switched to TOFC/COFC.
Jeff
I'm reading about 30 cars a month for Maine spuds to the west coast. Not sure for how long, but it seems to be something that will last until next season.
SD60MAC9500I'm reading about 30 cars a month for Maine spuds to the west coast. Not sure for how long, but it seems to be something that will last until next season.
WOW! A whole car a day! That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm]
BaltACDWOW! A whole car a day! That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm]
Well that would be 360 carloads per year. I'll guess a freight rate of $6,000/car. (Probably low.)
That works out to an additional $2,160,000 in revenue per year. On trains that are running anyway.
Remember, every million dollars helps.
I don't know if this is because of the west coast drought or what. But the spuds are being sent to Washington State for processing into frozen french fries. Strange days indeed.
greyhounds BaltACD WOW! A whole car a day! That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm] Well that would be 360 carloads per year. I'll guess a freight rate of $6,000/car. (Probably low.)
BaltACD WOW! A whole car a day! That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm]
Backshop greyhounds BaltACD WOW! A whole car a day! That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm] Well that would be 360 carloads per year. I'll guess a freight rate of $6,000/car. (Probably low.) Two problems with that...First, I doubt if the potatoes will be moving all year. You know, growing seasons and all that. And second, how much does it cost for a switch crew to grab that one car a day?
Two problems with that...First, I doubt if the potatoes will be moving all year. You know, growing seasons and all that. And second, how much does it cost for a switch crew to grab that one car a day?
You'll need to check the tariffs for the rails involved and see if they absorb switching charges based on; originating traffic, interchange points, through rate, and line haul movement.
The rails involved in the movement; Maine Northern Railway, Pan Am Railways, CSX, and UP to Washington state.
30 cars a month doesn't necessarily mean one per day. It's probably so many cars two or three days a week.
As to every million dollars help, yes it does. Or should. There have been multiple chances in my area for them to pick up business that could have netted between 5 and 10 million dollars a year. Business that could've been handled in existing trains. They didn't want any of it. I hope maybe this finally signals the change that's been talked about for a year or two. (That we need to grow business.)
I have my doubts.
BackshopTwo problems with that...First, I doubt if the potatoes will be moving all year. You know, growing seasons and all that. And second, how much does it cost for a switch crew to grab that one car a day?
Growing seasons? Look, they're moving fresh potatoes out of northern Maine in the dead of winter now. Potatoes store well, especially under the right conditions. Fresh potatoes are used 12 months per year and they're not harvested in northern Maine in December.
As to what the swich crew costs, I don't know but the railroad evidently seems to think it has that expense covered. Otherwise they wouldn't be hauling the freight now would they now.
There are three possibilities. 1) An existing job can do the pick up with no added hours. This would make the switching cost negligible. 2) You'd have to pay the crew overtime. This would kick up the cost to an extent. 3) You'd have to add another crew to get the potatoes. This would drive the costs through the roof.
Whatever it is, the originating railroad evidently seems to think the cost is covered.
This is a great example of what railroad marketing people often face. Somebody put new loads and good new revenue on the railroad. And there is push back. There is always push back.
The problem is Maine in the OTR industry is known as a dead zone. There isn't enough freight out of there and the rates aren't high enough for carriers to be willing to run into it. Also potatoes are some of the lowest paying things out there. There's a group of carriers that have developed a way to make money hauling them but they have specialty modifications to their trailers and trucks to lower their tare weight. Things like 12'6 inch trailers that are 48 foot long with spread axles pulled by 48 in sleeper tractors with smaller engines with a tag and one drive axles. These carriers can routinely take on 54 to 55k pounds and scale it out. That's about 10k more than a normal carrier would attempt to get legal.
Many years ago Maine potatoes were shipped throughout the country via what I believe was the largest fleet of reefer cars in the US using ice for coolant and cork insulation. You can still spot a survivor in someones yard being used for various storage purposes, etc. When growing up in Connecticut next to the NH mainline, those cars were a real standout. Possibly the sale of the PanAm/Guilford RR to CSX and the reentry of CP into parts of NE will rekindle some of that traffic although I think many farmers now raise brocolli instead of potatoes. I also think that the frozen french fry market may be larger than the whole potatoe market.
northeasteralthough I think many farmers now raise brocolli instead of potatoes
Well, if that's true, then the railroad should haul the brocolli.
northeasterI also think that the frozen french fry market may be larger than the whole potatoe market.
The USDA says you are correct. In the year 2019 they show the retail "Availability" of fresh potatoes at 34.2 pounds per capita. In that same year they show the availability of frozen potatoes at 51.5 pounds per capita. These are "Farm Weights" that measure the weight of the spuds as they are dug out of the ground.
Other uses are canned (really small), chips at 19.4 pounds and dehydrated at 13.6 pounds. Total farm weight availability in 2019 was 119.1 pounds of potatoes per capita.
Similar to other fruits and vegetables potatoes are mostly water. So if you're shipping fresh potatoes you're paying to ship water. That's why processing the spuds is usually done close to the growing area. Freezing will remove half the weight to be transported. Dehydrating will remove 87% of that weight.
What's unusual about this movement from northern Maine is that fresh potatoes are being shipped to a processor in Washington State to become frozen potatoes. I don't see it as a lasting deal.
But hey, if they want to ship it just haul it and send 'em a bill.
jeffhergert 30 cars a month doesn't necessarily mean one per day. It's probably so many cars two or three days a week. As to every million dollars help, yes it does. Or should. There have been multiple chances in my area for them to pick up business that could have netted between 5 and 10 million dollars a year. Business that could've been handled in existing trains. They didn't want any of it. I hope maybe this finally signals the change that's been talked about for a year or two. (That we need to grow business.) I have my doubts. Jeff
Jeff you may be right about business growing at UP. UP just started Port of Houston-KCMO stack service last week on the 12th. It runs 7days/wk both northbound/southbound.
Also UP is expanding it's Eagle Premium IM service via Eagle Pass to Mexico. O/D pairs; Chicago-Laredo-Silao, Memphis-Silao, Chicago-Monterey and possible produce from the Mexican state of Jalisco via Ferromex going forward.
Greyhounds, the drought caused a significant reduction in the Idaho and Washington potato crop this year, while Maine had a bumper crop.
Did you see the story on the news where McDonald's had to have three 747 freighter loads of fresh potatoes flown to Japan in December due to the shipping crisis.
In the olden days, I don't believe Maine potatoes shipped year-round. That's why BAR had an agreement to lease many of the their Geeps to the Pennsy in the summer. They only needed them during the winter potato rush.
Lets assume the local serving the origin is a regular train...either daily or similar service (2x, 3x week, etc). Thus, the time involved switching is minimal of the daily time of that train. Yes, there is the cost of moving an empty refer from somewhere (probably Boston or Portland) to the origin, but considerable cost is fixed for the origin carrier.
This is how shortlines and regionals grow their business...by finding the initial opportunities and then making it difficult for the shipper to go away. CSX or UP probably wouldnt get too excited about this, but someone who does all the switching makes this simply a point to point line haul move. Granted there will be a delivery cost at destination, but my guess there is a local serving that destination....or better yet a regional or shortline which is available for these types of moves.
I have been in sales (to transportation companies) for over 30 years and before that in LTL sales/marketing. These types of opportunities are valuable and often lead to expanded business opportunities, but you must be willing to make it work.
JayBeeGreyhounds, the drought caused a significant reduction in the Idaho and Washington potato crop this year, while Maine had a bumper crop. Did you see the story on the news where McDonald's had to have three 747 freighter loads of fresh potatoes flown to Japan in December due to the shipping crisis.
Yes. It's strange days indeed.
When the drought and COVID happened at the same time weird things became necessary. Such as: 1) Flying potatoes across the Pacific Ocean and, 2) shipping railcars of fresh potatoes from Maine to Washington State to be turned into frozen french fries.
It is my understanding that McDonalds loaded the three 747 freighters with processed frozen fries and not fresh potatoes. That saved weight.
Befor and during WW-2 our town had a very large ice plant. It was located on the N&W RR's yard. Serviced reefers that local switch crew moved cars Many persons had no refrigerator just the many ice men who delivered ice to be put into ice boxes. Have my grandmother's ice box. After WW-2 the refrigerators were finally available. The ice plant slowly lost business but the RR work was steady. Then sddenly N&W told them no more reefers. Ice plant rapidly folded.
It would be great to see more fruit and veggies move to the rails. But over the years there have been so many false starts it leaves me a little skeptical where this will end up.
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