I can't hold it any more. When I first read the title of this thread, I pictured a bunch of potatoes splattered all over the rails making for very slippery conditions. After all these days that picture still sticks in my mind.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
SD60MAC9500 jeffhergert greyhounds andrewjonathon I wish that was the current thinking but look at the huge facility for transloading fruit/veggies near Pasco that UP closed down in 2020 after only buying it in 2017. It was apparently profitable and they were pretty upbeat about it but after PSR it wasn't profitable enough apparently. What I hear is both BNSF and UP are actively discouraging any non mega shippers from using the railroad. The facility in Wallua, WA has been sold to Tiger Cool Express. UP hasn’t given up on the business, they’ve just found an entity who knows how to manage it. Tiger Cool is a successful start up formed to move perishables by rail intermodal. They’re building an IM terminal in Wallua but will continue to load reefer cars where that service is appropriate. The UP itself has lost most of its institutional knowledge regarding the movement of perishable products. Thank you, Federal Government. Once such knowledge is lost it takes years and years and years to recover. Tiger Cool has the knowledge. As an example, UP tried to move the produce out of Wallua in unit trains. A really bad concept. The trains ran once, maybe twice, per week to one single terminal in the east. This delayed perishable shipments and drove trucking delivery cost through the roof. It also meant they couldn’t serve major markets such as Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, etc. But some dork(s) in Omaha wanted unit trains. In short, the UP didn’t know what it was doing. The UP seems to have gotten past its boutique unit train fetish, but they’ve got to regroup on serving this market. They’re doing that. As to “Actively discouraging any non mega shippers", what should they do? They were out of terminal capacity and chassis in places such as Chicago. They have contracts with UPS, FedEx, JB Hunt, Hub Group, etc. They should protect their large, regular customers. You don’t stiff those guys in favor of some shipper who doesn’t use your service unless he can’t get a truck. They allocated scarce capacity to their regular customers. That’s what they needed to do and they did it. I don't see PSR as having anything to do with this. The train was ran at the behest of a customer, RailEx. Not a true unit train, it was operated for one customer from their originating facility to their terminal facility. If UP had any say that the move had to be as a unit, it was probably the only way RailEx could get the railroad interested in servicing them. It seems that the railroad would rather run off business and eliminate a switch engine anytime possible. It started out with one train per week, usually about 30 cars long. Then developed into two and sometimes three per week. Another facility was opened in California. Both sent trains to the New York facility. The cars moved back mostly empty. Infrequently would there be a loaded car going back. RailEx was planning on adding a facility in the southeast US. UP's mistake was buying RailEx in the first place. They should've just let them be and build up the business. Jeff Yep Delano, CA was the other facility. Jeff correct me if I'm wrong. I think these blocks from the PNW, and Cali were combined at North Platte.
jeffhergert greyhounds andrewjonathon I wish that was the current thinking but look at the huge facility for transloading fruit/veggies near Pasco that UP closed down in 2020 after only buying it in 2017. It was apparently profitable and they were pretty upbeat about it but after PSR it wasn't profitable enough apparently. What I hear is both BNSF and UP are actively discouraging any non mega shippers from using the railroad. The facility in Wallua, WA has been sold to Tiger Cool Express. UP hasn’t given up on the business, they’ve just found an entity who knows how to manage it. Tiger Cool is a successful start up formed to move perishables by rail intermodal. They’re building an IM terminal in Wallua but will continue to load reefer cars where that service is appropriate. The UP itself has lost most of its institutional knowledge regarding the movement of perishable products. Thank you, Federal Government. Once such knowledge is lost it takes years and years and years to recover. Tiger Cool has the knowledge. As an example, UP tried to move the produce out of Wallua in unit trains. A really bad concept. The trains ran once, maybe twice, per week to one single terminal in the east. This delayed perishable shipments and drove trucking delivery cost through the roof. It also meant they couldn’t serve major markets such as Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, etc. But some dork(s) in Omaha wanted unit trains. In short, the UP didn’t know what it was doing. The UP seems to have gotten past its boutique unit train fetish, but they’ve got to regroup on serving this market. They’re doing that. As to “Actively discouraging any non mega shippers", what should they do? They were out of terminal capacity and chassis in places such as Chicago. They have contracts with UPS, FedEx, JB Hunt, Hub Group, etc. They should protect their large, regular customers. You don’t stiff those guys in favor of some shipper who doesn’t use your service unless he can’t get a truck. They allocated scarce capacity to their regular customers. That’s what they needed to do and they did it. I don't see PSR as having anything to do with this. The train was ran at the behest of a customer, RailEx. Not a true unit train, it was operated for one customer from their originating facility to their terminal facility. If UP had any say that the move had to be as a unit, it was probably the only way RailEx could get the railroad interested in servicing them. It seems that the railroad would rather run off business and eliminate a switch engine anytime possible. It started out with one train per week, usually about 30 cars long. Then developed into two and sometimes three per week. Another facility was opened in California. Both sent trains to the New York facility. The cars moved back mostly empty. Infrequently would there be a loaded car going back. RailEx was planning on adding a facility in the southeast US. UP's mistake was buying RailEx in the first place. They should've just let them be and build up the business. Jeff
greyhounds andrewjonathon I wish that was the current thinking but look at the huge facility for transloading fruit/veggies near Pasco that UP closed down in 2020 after only buying it in 2017. It was apparently profitable and they were pretty upbeat about it but after PSR it wasn't profitable enough apparently. What I hear is both BNSF and UP are actively discouraging any non mega shippers from using the railroad. The facility in Wallua, WA has been sold to Tiger Cool Express. UP hasn’t given up on the business, they’ve just found an entity who knows how to manage it. Tiger Cool is a successful start up formed to move perishables by rail intermodal. They’re building an IM terminal in Wallua but will continue to load reefer cars where that service is appropriate. The UP itself has lost most of its institutional knowledge regarding the movement of perishable products. Thank you, Federal Government. Once such knowledge is lost it takes years and years and years to recover. Tiger Cool has the knowledge. As an example, UP tried to move the produce out of Wallua in unit trains. A really bad concept. The trains ran once, maybe twice, per week to one single terminal in the east. This delayed perishable shipments and drove trucking delivery cost through the roof. It also meant they couldn’t serve major markets such as Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, etc. But some dork(s) in Omaha wanted unit trains. In short, the UP didn’t know what it was doing. The UP seems to have gotten past its boutique unit train fetish, but they’ve got to regroup on serving this market. They’re doing that. As to “Actively discouraging any non mega shippers", what should they do? They were out of terminal capacity and chassis in places such as Chicago. They have contracts with UPS, FedEx, JB Hunt, Hub Group, etc. They should protect their large, regular customers. You don’t stiff those guys in favor of some shipper who doesn’t use your service unless he can’t get a truck. They allocated scarce capacity to their regular customers. That’s what they needed to do and they did it. I don't see PSR as having anything to do with this.
andrewjonathon I wish that was the current thinking but look at the huge facility for transloading fruit/veggies near Pasco that UP closed down in 2020 after only buying it in 2017. It was apparently profitable and they were pretty upbeat about it but after PSR it wasn't profitable enough apparently. What I hear is both BNSF and UP are actively discouraging any non mega shippers from using the railroad.
I don't see PSR as having anything to do with this.
The train was ran at the behest of a customer, RailEx. Not a true unit train, it was operated for one customer from their originating facility to their terminal facility. If UP had any say that the move had to be as a unit, it was probably the only way RailEx could get the railroad interested in servicing them. It seems that the railroad would rather run off business and eliminate a switch engine anytime possible.
It started out with one train per week, usually about 30 cars long. Then developed into two and sometimes three per week. Another facility was opened in California. Both sent trains to the New York facility. The cars moved back mostly empty. Infrequently would there be a loaded car going back.
RailEx was planning on adding a facility in the southeast US.
UP's mistake was buying RailEx in the first place. They should've just let them be and build up the business.
Jeff
Yep Delano, CA was the other facility. Jeff correct me if I'm wrong. I think these blocks from the PNW, and Cali were combined at North Platte.
I believe they usually combined/split them at Green River WY.
Some got to be pretty long. I remember seeing some 9000 ft long. One of which broke into four pieces one day going over the Missouri River bridge at Blair NE.
andrewjonathonI don't see PSR as having anything to do with this.
Insufficient ROI. A hallmark of P$R.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
greyhounds What you say is interesting but it doesn't really jive with all of the facts I have read and observed. I am glad Tiger Cool is purchasing the facility in Wallula but it came a year and half after UP shutdown the business so it is not directly connected. Railex successfully operated the unit train business model for 11 years before UP purchased it so I disagree it was a flawed model. From what I have read UP expanded the business for three years and then suprised a lot of analysts by shutting it down in early 2020 blaming Covid. What changed? Was it really Covid or PSR? As far as traffic congestion, sure the intermodal terminals are clogged up especially in Chicago but that has more to do with breakdowns in the supply chain and a trucker shortage than a lack of capacity on the railroad. Railroads have lost market share in the last 10 years and their overall growth has been very slow or even declining at times especially after the railroads adopted PSR. Annecdotally last year I drove from Washington to Denver and I have never seen so few freight trains plying the railroad over the Blue Mountains and across Wyoming. This same observation was documented in a Trains article in 2019 (if recall the date correctly). There is capacity available but under PSR after laying off rail employees there is certain types of traffic they don't want regardless of available capacity. The facility in Wallua, WA has been sold to Tiger Cool Express. UP hasn’t given up on the business, they’ve just found an entity who knows how to manage it. Tiger Cool is a successful start up formed to move perishables by rail intermodal. They’re building an IM terminal in Wallua but will continue to load reefer cars where that service is appropriate. The UP itself has lost most of its institutional knowledge regarding the movement of perishable products. Thank you, Federal Government. Once such knowledge is lost it takes years and years and years to recover. Tiger Cool has the knowledge. As an example, UP tried to move the produce out of Wallua in unit trains. A really bad concept. The trains ran once, maybe twice, per week to one single terminal in the east. This delayed perishable shipments and drove trucking delivery cost through the roof. It also meant they couldn’t serve major markets such as Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, etc. But some dork(s) in Omaha wanted unit trains. In short, the UP didn’t know what it was doing. The UP seems to have gotten past its boutique unit train fetish, but they’ve got to regroup on serving this market. They’re doing that. As to “Actively discouraging any non mega shippers", what should they do? They were out of terminal capacity and chassis in places such as Chicago. They have contracts with UPS, FedEx, JB Hunt, Hub Group, etc. They should protect their large, regular customers. You don’t stiff those guys in favor of some shipper who doesn’t use your service unless he can’t get a truck. They allocated scarce capacity to their regular customers. That’s what they needed to do and they did it. I don't see PSR as having anything to do with this.
As far as traffic congestion, sure the intermodal terminals are clogged up especially in Chicago but that has more to do with breakdowns in the supply chain and a trucker shortage than a lack of capacity on the railroad. Railroads have lost market share in the last 10 years and their overall growth has been very slow or even declining at times especially after the railroads adopted PSR. Annecdotally last year I drove from Washington to Denver and I have never seen so few freight trains plying the railroad over the Blue Mountains and across Wyoming. This same observation was documented in a Trains article in 2019 (if recall the date correctly). There is capacity available but under PSR after laying off rail employees there is certain types of traffic they don't want regardless of available capacity.
What I am trying to figure out is how they are (or did) route the shipment. Maine Northern Railway runs south to Millinocket, ME and then has trackage rights over the CM&Q (Canadian Pacific) to Brownville Jct, ME. From there to reach PanAm they have two choices, interchange the shipment to affliate Eastern Maine Rwy. to haul it east to Mattawamkeag, ME and hand it over to PanAm there, though PanAm hasn't sent a train to Mattawamkeag in several years and the track is in wretched shape. Or they can interchange it to CM&Q to move it to Northern Maine Jct, ME where PanAm's track is in better condition.
While some years old. Here's a power point from WATCO on how shortlines can help out moving perishables,
https://www.mwrailshippers.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/07/04-Watco-MARS-Presentation-7.17.18-002.pdf
greyhounds I'd like to know more about that deck system that allows them to "Double Stack" the potatoes inside the railcar. Look at the build date on that UP reefer car. January 2021. Great to see. And where do we go from here? Look for opportunities and solve the problems.
I'd like to know more about that deck system that allows them to "Double Stack" the potatoes inside the railcar.
Look at the build date on that UP reefer car. January 2021. Great to see.
And where do we go from here? Look for opportunities and solve the problems.
Doesn't look like they're using a traditional rack system. It appears from the video they're just placing planks across the 1st tier. Then stacking on it. If this business keeps up possibly they'll invest in a true racking system that does away with using dunnage, and/or blocking and bracing.
On another note. If the STB approves CSX's acquisition of Pan Am Railways, plus these potatoes are still moving in the future. This service could see an increase in speed by eliminating another interchange. Maybe growth as well?
I wonder if the taters are being trucked from the field (or a packing facility) to a location where they're loaded on the just-emptied reefers for the West (at a backhaul rate).
While this is likely a one time move, I'm sure the farmers and Maine Northern are hoping that this will lead to something next year.
https://www.wagmtv.com/app/2022/01/15/maine-potatoes-head-west-coast/?fbclid=IwAR0WEtSuZq-9OnIOOII4qwAmeGYmPsYTqLGziyEcOyoboOlPF_BbfZ9UAeo
andrewjonathonI wish that was the current thinking but look at the huge facility for transloading fruit/veggies near Pasco that UP closed down in 2020 after only buying it in 2017. It was apparently profitable and they were pretty upbeat about it but after PSR it wasn't profitable enough apparently. What I hear is both BNSF and UP are actively discouraging any non mega shippers from using the railroad.
andrewjonathon It would be great to see more fruit and veggies move to the rails. But over the years there have been so many false starts it leaves me a little skeptical where this will end up.
It would be great to see more fruit and veggies move to the rails. But over the years there have been so many false starts it leaves me a little skeptical where this will end up.
More perishables on the rails as a whole; eggs, flowers, meats, etc. I'll add mergers can help increase market share from the Midwest by eliminating the artificial barrier in the Mississippi region. No C1's will short haul this traffic.
greyhoundsI wish that was the current thinking but look at the huge facility for transloading fruit/veggies near Pasco that UP closed down in 2020 after only buying it in 2017. It was apparently profitable and they were pretty upbeat about it but after PSR it wasn't profitable enough apparently. What I hear is both BNSF and UP are actively discouraging any non mega shippers from using the railroad. mudchicken If you were the El Grande Heffe of the Yellow Peril, your Operations manager would simply report back that there is no money to be made in moving potatoes because of the restrictions imposed by the post-PSR regime driven by finance and the lack of "service" that that demands If I were in that position (dream on) his/her giving such a response would cause me to consider requiring him/her to find another source of income. Such a response would indicate that he/she doesn’t understand the micro-economics of our firm. And that should be the first requirement for any high-level position in any company. Railroads are volume driven. Up to the point of congestion, more volume equals lower average costs per load. Get the freight on the railroad if it covers its incremental costs. Adding some potato loads to an existing train cost but few extra bucks. But it can kick up revenue big time. Also, and furthermore, and henceforth, that’s why you’ve got to include the finance people in the assignment. You want the money folks understanding and supporting the endeavor. Not fighting it.
mudchicken If you were the El Grande Heffe of the Yellow Peril, your Operations manager would simply report back that there is no money to be made in moving potatoes because of the restrictions imposed by the post-PSR regime driven by finance and the lack of "service" that that demands
Befor and during WW-2 our town had a very large ice plant. It was located on the N&W RR's yard. Serviced reefers that local switch crew moved cars Many persons had no refrigerator just the many ice men who delivered ice to be put into ice boxes. Have my grandmother's ice box. After WW-2 the refrigerators were finally available. The ice plant slowly lost business but the RR work was steady. Then sddenly N&W told them no more reefers. Ice plant rapidly folded.
JayBeeGreyhounds, the drought caused a significant reduction in the Idaho and Washington potato crop this year, while Maine had a bumper crop. Did you see the story on the news where McDonald's had to have three 747 freighter loads of fresh potatoes flown to Japan in December due to the shipping crisis.
Yes. It's strange days indeed.
When the drought and COVID happened at the same time weird things became necessary. Such as: 1) Flying potatoes across the Pacific Ocean and, 2) shipping railcars of fresh potatoes from Maine to Washington State to be turned into frozen french fries.
It is my understanding that McDonalds loaded the three 747 freighters with processed frozen fries and not fresh potatoes. That saved weight.
Lets assume the local serving the origin is a regular train...either daily or similar service (2x, 3x week, etc). Thus, the time involved switching is minimal of the daily time of that train. Yes, there is the cost of moving an empty refer from somewhere (probably Boston or Portland) to the origin, but considerable cost is fixed for the origin carrier.
This is how shortlines and regionals grow their business...by finding the initial opportunities and then making it difficult for the shipper to go away. CSX or UP probably wouldnt get too excited about this, but someone who does all the switching makes this simply a point to point line haul move. Granted there will be a delivery cost at destination, but my guess there is a local serving that destination....or better yet a regional or shortline which is available for these types of moves.
I have been in sales (to transportation companies) for over 30 years and before that in LTL sales/marketing. These types of opportunities are valuable and often lead to expanded business opportunities, but you must be willing to make it work.
Ed
In the olden days, I don't believe Maine potatoes shipped year-round. That's why BAR had an agreement to lease many of the their Geeps to the Pennsy in the summer. They only needed them during the winter potato rush.
Greyhounds, the drought caused a significant reduction in the Idaho and Washington potato crop this year, while Maine had a bumper crop.
Did you see the story on the news where McDonald's had to have three 747 freighter loads of fresh potatoes flown to Japan in December due to the shipping crisis.
jeffhergert 30 cars a month doesn't necessarily mean one per day. It's probably so many cars two or three days a week. As to every million dollars help, yes it does. Or should. There have been multiple chances in my area for them to pick up business that could have netted between 5 and 10 million dollars a year. Business that could've been handled in existing trains. They didn't want any of it. I hope maybe this finally signals the change that's been talked about for a year or two. (That we need to grow business.) I have my doubts. Jeff
30 cars a month doesn't necessarily mean one per day. It's probably so many cars two or three days a week.
As to every million dollars help, yes it does. Or should. There have been multiple chances in my area for them to pick up business that could have netted between 5 and 10 million dollars a year. Business that could've been handled in existing trains. They didn't want any of it. I hope maybe this finally signals the change that's been talked about for a year or two. (That we need to grow business.)
I have my doubts.
Jeff you may be right about business growing at UP. UP just started Port of Houston-KCMO stack service last week on the 12th. It runs 7days/wk both northbound/southbound.
Also UP is expanding it's Eagle Premium IM service via Eagle Pass to Mexico. O/D pairs; Chicago-Laredo-Silao, Memphis-Silao, Chicago-Monterey and possible produce from the Mexican state of Jalisco via Ferromex going forward.
northeasterI also think that the frozen french fry market may be larger than the whole potatoe market.
The USDA says you are correct. In the year 2019 they show the retail "Availability" of fresh potatoes at 34.2 pounds per capita. In that same year they show the availability of frozen potatoes at 51.5 pounds per capita. These are "Farm Weights" that measure the weight of the spuds as they are dug out of the ground.
Other uses are canned (really small), chips at 19.4 pounds and dehydrated at 13.6 pounds. Total farm weight availability in 2019 was 119.1 pounds of potatoes per capita.
Similar to other fruits and vegetables potatoes are mostly water. So if you're shipping fresh potatoes you're paying to ship water. That's why processing the spuds is usually done close to the growing area. Freezing will remove half the weight to be transported. Dehydrating will remove 87% of that weight.
What's unusual about this movement from northern Maine is that fresh potatoes are being shipped to a processor in Washington State to become frozen potatoes. I don't see it as a lasting deal.
But hey, if they want to ship it just haul it and send 'em a bill.
northeasteralthough I think many farmers now raise brocolli instead of potatoes
Well, if that's true, then the railroad should haul the brocolli.
Many years ago Maine potatoes were shipped throughout the country via what I believe was the largest fleet of reefer cars in the US using ice for coolant and cork insulation. You can still spot a survivor in someones yard being used for various storage purposes, etc. When growing up in Connecticut next to the NH mainline, those cars were a real standout. Possibly the sale of the PanAm/Guilford RR to CSX and the reentry of CP into parts of NE will rekindle some of that traffic although I think many farmers now raise brocolli instead of potatoes. I also think that the frozen french fry market may be larger than the whole potatoe market.
The problem is Maine in the OTR industry is known as a dead zone. There isn't enough freight out of there and the rates aren't high enough for carriers to be willing to run into it. Also potatoes are some of the lowest paying things out there. There's a group of carriers that have developed a way to make money hauling them but they have specialty modifications to their trailers and trucks to lower their tare weight. Things like 12'6 inch trailers that are 48 foot long with spread axles pulled by 48 in sleeper tractors with smaller engines with a tag and one drive axles. These carriers can routinely take on 54 to 55k pounds and scale it out. That's about 10k more than a normal carrier would attempt to get legal.
BackshopTwo problems with that...First, I doubt if the potatoes will be moving all year. You know, growing seasons and all that. And second, how much does it cost for a switch crew to grab that one car a day?
Growing seasons? Look, they're moving fresh potatoes out of northern Maine in the dead of winter now. Potatoes store well, especially under the right conditions. Fresh potatoes are used 12 months per year and they're not harvested in northern Maine in December.
As to what the swich crew costs, I don't know but the railroad evidently seems to think it has that expense covered. Otherwise they wouldn't be hauling the freight now would they now.
There are three possibilities. 1) An existing job can do the pick up with no added hours. This would make the switching cost negligible. 2) You'd have to pay the crew overtime. This would kick up the cost to an extent. 3) You'd have to add another crew to get the potatoes. This would drive the costs through the roof.
Whatever it is, the originating railroad evidently seems to think the cost is covered.
This is a great example of what railroad marketing people often face. Somebody put new loads and good new revenue on the railroad. And there is push back. There is always push back.
Backshop greyhounds BaltACD WOW! A whole car a day! That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm] Well that would be 360 carloads per year. I'll guess a freight rate of $6,000/car. (Probably low.) Two problems with that...First, I doubt if the potatoes will be moving all year. You know, growing seasons and all that. And second, how much does it cost for a switch crew to grab that one car a day?
greyhounds BaltACD WOW! A whole car a day! That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm] Well that would be 360 carloads per year. I'll guess a freight rate of $6,000/car. (Probably low.)
BaltACD WOW! A whole car a day! That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm]
Well that would be 360 carloads per year. I'll guess a freight rate of $6,000/car. (Probably low.)
Two problems with that...First, I doubt if the potatoes will be moving all year. You know, growing seasons and all that. And second, how much does it cost for a switch crew to grab that one car a day?
You'll need to check the tariffs for the rails involved and see if they absorb switching charges based on; originating traffic, interchange points, through rate, and line haul movement.
The rails involved in the movement; Maine Northern Railway, Pan Am Railways, CSX, and UP to Washington state.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.