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Maine Potatoes Are Hitting The Rails Again? And To The West Coast?

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Posted by Backshop on Sunday, January 16, 2022 8:18 AM

greyhounds

 

 
BaltACD
WOW!  A whole car a day!  That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm]

 

Well that would be 360 carloads per year.  I'll guess a freight rate of $6,000/car.  (Probably low.) 

Two problems with that...First, I doubt if the potatoes will be moving all year.  You know, growing seasons and all that.  And second, how much does it cost for a switch crew to grab that one car a day?

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Posted by greyhounds on Sunday, January 16, 2022 12:41 AM

BaltACD
WOW!  A whole car a day!  That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm]

Well that would be 360 carloads per year.  I'll guess a freight rate of $6,000/car.  (Probably low.)

That works out to an additional $2,160,000 in revenue per year.  On trains that are running anyway.

Remember, every million dollars helps.

I don't know if this is because of the west coast drought or what.  But the spuds are being sent to Washington State for processing into frozen french fries.  Strange days indeed.

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, January 15, 2022 10:47 PM

SD60MAC9500
I'm reading about 30 cars a month for Maine spuds to the west coast. Not sure for how long, but it seems to be something that will last until next season.

WOW!  A whole car a day!  That will make the carriers profitable. [/sarcasm]

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Saturday, January 15, 2022 7:44 PM
 

I'm reading about 30 cars a month for Maine spuds to the west coast. Not sure for how long, but it seems to be something that will last until next season.

 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by jeffhergert on Tuesday, January 11, 2022 9:00 PM

MP173

Couple of points here:

1.  CSX / UP used to run the "Apple Train" to the Albany area...it was well covered by the transportation press.  I watched the trains on a number of times, usually about 30-50 cars with 3 big UP motors.  It usually ran about 2-3 x a week.  Unsure why the service ended, probably the originator of the traffic on the west coast couldnt make a profit.

2.  Today CSX averages about 10-15 refers per day on their Q368 - Chicago - Selkirk (Albany) train.  Most of those refers are UP branded.  It is possible that the Cold Express Apple Train freight moved to regular service.

3.  Those empties return back west.  What better way to return the expensive cars than to haul up to Maine, pickup a couple loads of tators and haul west!

4.  A few months ago we discussed the NS LTL (LCL) service out of Chicago to Atlanta and also the East Coast.  I actually talked to a NS rep in Chicago who knew a little about it and he referred me to the Chicago rep handling it.  I left a message, he never called back. I have a number of LTL contacts in Chicago that would have been a natural fit on this service, not only for local pickup but also to market it as part of their total LTL service.  The boxcar on 20E disappeared...until this week when a box car was spotted on the Chicago - NJ intermodal.  Hopefully that service can grow...it needs to as LTL service is stretched thin these days.

Ed

 

RailEx was the original company that started the perishable train.  (We called them the Salad Shooters.)  The original operation was in Washington state.  A second train was put on out of California.  The trains would at first be separate, but gradually started getting combined eastward/split westbound in Wyoming.  UP eventually bought RailEx.  I believe it was marketed as Cold Connect and was shut down a year or so back.  RailEx had plans for a train to the Southeastern US, but I don't think it ever got beyond the planning change. 

Anecdotally, I'm not sure that a lot of that RailEx business still goes by rail.  At least in mechanical reefers.  Maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath, some has switched to TOFC/COFC.   

Jeff

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, January 11, 2022 3:14 PM

SD60MAC9500
When UP and CSX ran cold connect. The only delay was a crew change and 1000 mile inspection in Chicago. Power ran through as well so there was another delay eliminated. Chicago is more so less a problem for run through service. It's my point of view that all boxcar perishables traffic needs to become an intermodal product. Constructing of "cold parks" that can load; trailer, containers, and boxcars. Give the customer a choice of unit to load their product based on their needs. I don't think the C1's are interested in the concept, but 3PL's such as Savage, and WATCO appear to be heading this route.

I'd like to see more perishables carried, I think it is a market segment the rails have not paid much attention too, so we'll see how WATCO does with it. 

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, January 11, 2022 3:11 PM

BaltACD
I don't think anyone can make sense out of all the competing profit motives from all the parties involved in the medical-industrial complex. This Summer I had issues with both my 'exhaust' systems.  Issues with my bladder, one kidney and my regular 5 year colonoscopy.  Medicare was billed in excess of $59K.  Medicare 'approved' payments of over $21K, Medicare actually paid a little over $20K.  My 'medicare supplement' policy paid out over $3K.  To date my out of pocket payments have been less than $115. How it all works is beyond my pay grade. Add Q

My Aunt is a Catholic Nun and her order runs a chain of private hospitals.   They each have a rather large fund to cover patients bills where payment falls short, they are Non-Profits but have excess cash to burn each year because of the money they make and that is how they do it.    They can cover x amount of poor people as well that cannot afford to pay any of their bills and they cover them as well but only up to a specific number they budget for.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, January 11, 2022 1:35 PM

MP173
Couple of points here:

1.  CSX / UP used to run the "Apple Train" to the Albany area...it was well covered by the transportation press.  I watched the trains on a number of times, usually about 30-50 cars with 3 big UP motors.  It usually ran about 2-3 x a week.  Unsure why the service ended, probably the originator of the traffic on the west coast couldnt make a profit.

2.  Today CSX averages about 10-15 refers per day on their Q368 - Chicago - Selkirk (Albany) train.  Most of those refers are UP branded.  It is possible that the Cold Express Apple Train freight moved to regular service.

3.  Those empties return back west.  What better way to return the expensive cars than to haul up to Maine, pickup a couple loads of tators and haul west!

4.  A few months ago we discussed the NS LTL (LCL) service out of Chicago to Atlanta and also the East Coast.  I actually talked to a NS rep in Chicago who knew a little about it and he referred me to the Chicago rep handling it.  I left a message, he never called back. I have a number of LTL contacts in Chicago that would have been a natural fit on this service, not only for local pickup but also to market it as part of their total LTL service.  The boxcar on 20E disappeared...until this week when a box car was spotted on the Chicago - NJ intermodal.  Hopefully that service can grow...it needs to as LTL service is stretched thin these days.

Ed

Who is the car owner and how many cars are in the PNW to Albany area service?  Routing the cars to Maine for spuds would add 4 to 7 days to the cycle time for the fleet that is in that service.

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Posted by MP173 on Tuesday, January 11, 2022 1:19 PM

Couple of points here:

1.  CSX / UP used to run the "Apple Train" to the Albany area...it was well covered by the transportation press.  I watched the trains on a number of times, usually about 30-50 cars with 3 big UP motors.  It usually ran about 2-3 x a week.  Unsure why the service ended, probably the originator of the traffic on the west coast couldnt make a profit.

2.  Today CSX averages about 10-15 refers per day on their Q368 - Chicago - Selkirk (Albany) train.  Most of those refers are UP branded.  It is possible that the Cold Express Apple Train freight moved to regular service.

3.  Those empties return back west.  What better way to return the expensive cars than to haul up to Maine, pickup a couple loads of tators and haul west!

4.  A few months ago we discussed the NS LTL (LCL) service out of Chicago to Atlanta and also the East Coast.  I actually talked to a NS rep in Chicago who knew a little about it and he referred me to the Chicago rep handling it.  I left a message, he never called back. I have a number of LTL contacts in Chicago that would have been a natural fit on this service, not only for local pickup but also to market it as part of their total LTL service.  The boxcar on 20E disappeared...until this week when a box car was spotted on the Chicago - NJ intermodal.  Hopefully that service can grow...it needs to as LTL service is stretched thin these days.

Ed

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Tuesday, January 11, 2022 9:10 AM
 

greyhounds

OK, as a former marketing guy I just find this stuff fascinating:

https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/Todays_Reports/reports/pots0920.pdf

What I see is revenue and profits.  Maine produces 3.94% of the potatoes in the US.  Idaho and Washington produce 56.51%.  (Page 8)  And people here eat a lot of potato stuff.  (65.5 pounds retail weight for every man, woman and child in 2019) So, focus on Idaho and Washington.

If I was the head UP honcho (in my wildest dreams) I'd call in the VP of marketing, the VP of operations, and the VP of finance.  I'd tell them if one load of potatoes went east of Denver by truck, or South of Salt Lake City by truck, or west of Reno by truck, they'd better have a very good explanation. 

And do not forget about the onions and apples.

 

Savage operating the IM ramp in Pocatello, ID should give UP an incentive to haul this traffic. Savage can solicit and build the business, build the trains. UP would be glad to hook and haul.

 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Tuesday, January 11, 2022 9:02 AM
 

CMStPnP

 

 
SD60MAC9500
Well it appears Maine potatoes are hitting the rails again! Albeit in a much reduced capacity... Anyhow.. Roughly 3 weeks ago LaJoie Growers LLC/Grand Prix Inc. Shipped two UP reefers full of Maine Russet potatoes billed to the West Coast. I can't share the video here, but if you have a Linkedin account. Login to view the video. Here's the link.  https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jay-lajoie-00701939_our-first-two-of-many-up-rail-cars-full-of-ugcPost-6877533451751317504-ufE6 Not sure if this traffic will redevelop, and in order for it too. Rails will have to show consistent reliability. Don't let Penn Central leave a bad taste in your mouth.. This traffic can be regained if the C1's want it.

 

I think this is good news but one item I have always wondered is if they could get the perishible freight expedited in a hot shot type train through Chicago FAST, without all the typical delays and around the congestion.    I trully wonder if more perishible West to East Coast and vice versa traffic could not be handled.    Because the only reason in my view that rail does not have more of this traffic segment is total shipping time and in my view the culprit is Chicago and it's congestion.     Get a train to the West or East Coast in less than 4 days and you got a winner for perishable traffic......in my view.

 

When UP and CSX ran cold connect. The only delay was a crew change and 1000 mile inspection in Chicago. Power ran through as well so there was another delay eliminated. Chicago is more so less a problem for run through service.

It's my point of view that all boxcar perishables traffic needs to become an intermodal product. Constructing of "cold parks" that can load; trailer, containers, and boxcars. Give the customer a choice of unit to load their product based on their needs. I don't think the C1's are interested in the concept, but 3PL's such as Savage, and WATCO appear to be heading this route.

 
 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by Gramp on Tuesday, January 11, 2022 8:48 AM

MidlandMike

 

 
Euclid

 

 
Gramp
A company a friend works for reconditions large cylinders. As large as 177,000#. Their culture is imbued with safety first, quality second, productivity third. Top of the organization to bottom. They're very profitable. Too bad railways don't follow suit. 

 

I can see how safety could be a tradeoff with profit or productivity.  But why should safety be a tradeoff with quality?

I would make quality & safety first; and profit & productivity second.  

 

 

 

One can usually see and do things better without safety glasses and protective gear.  Would you choose safety or quality.

 

I think the gist of it is that people are intrinsically valued highly there, and that ends up being reflected in the results.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, January 10, 2022 8:06 PM

tree68

 

 
MidlandMike
One can usually see and do things better without safety glasses and protective gear.  Would you choose safety or quality.

 

It's not a question of one or the other.  

 

 

It was a rhetorical question.  I was anticipating most people on this forum would chose safety first.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, January 10, 2022 7:32 PM

MidlandMike
One can usually see and do things better without safety glasses and protective gear.  Would you choose safety or quality.

It's not a question of one or the other.  

I believe it's right in most railroad rulebooks - "When in doubt, take the safe course."

Something can be done right, and safely.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, January 10, 2022 6:58 PM

Euclid

 

 
Gramp
A company a friend works for reconditions large cylinders. As large as 177,000#. Their culture is imbued with safety first, quality second, productivity third. Top of the organization to bottom. They're very profitable. Too bad railways don't follow suit. 

 

I can see how safety could be a tradeoff with profit or productivity.  But why should safety be a tradeoff with quality?

I would make quality & safety first; and profit & productivity second.  

 

One can usually see and do things better without safety glasses and protective gear.  Would you choose safety or quality.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, January 10, 2022 6:07 PM

BaltACD
How it all works is beyond my pay grade.

Agreed.  So far, my broken ankle has cost me for one med that apparently my insurance and Medicare don't want to cover.  Aside from that - two operations and other visits, I haven't paid anything.

Then again, I paid in beaucoup bucks each month for years without costing them a cent.  I"m not going to try to do the math to see if I'm breaking even...

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, January 10, 2022 5:35 PM

CMStPnP
 
BaltACD
The Medical-Industrial Complex with Medicare and its payment policies raising the complexity to the Nth degree. 

Ross Perot made his Billions off Medicare / Medicaid.   First by selling IBM Mainframes to states to process Medicare, second by starting EDS and selling the same states computer programmers on a contractual basis to program Medicare on the mainframe.   He understood the Federal  Government was in way over it's head with the complexity of the Medicare program and would probably never be able to afford decent IT people via Government Salary.   He was correct on both counts.

I don't think anyone can make sense out of all the competing profit motives from all the parties involved in the medical-industrial complex.

This Summer I had issues with both my 'exhaust' systems.  Issues with my bladder, one kidney and my regular 5 year colonoscopy.  Medicare was billed in excess of $59K.  Medicare 'approved' payments of over $21K, Medicare actually paid a little over $20K.  My 'medicare supplement' policy paid out over $3K.  To date my out of pocket payments have been less than $115.

How it all works is beyond my pay grade.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Monday, January 10, 2022 4:31 PM

People take the service your type of operations provide for granted and do not like paying for it until they need it. Then they complain about any delays and trivial things. You already know this. I worked for a utility, as long as the power was available, they would complain about bills and other issues. Let the lights go out and they want it back NOW. Thank you for what you do. I for one appreaciate volunteer and paid first responders. As the Mastercard ads used to say, "PRICELESS". Thank You.

until it is not available and 

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, January 10, 2022 3:36 PM

Backshop

Twenty-six replies in a thread about TWO carloads of potatoes...

Better than zero loads...

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Posted by Backshop on Monday, January 10, 2022 2:43 PM

Twenty-six replies in a thread about TWO carloads of potatoes...

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, January 10, 2022 10:28 AM

Euclid
I would make quality & safety first; and profit & productivity second.

Agree totally and the last two follow the first.   If you produce something of sufficient quality for a fair price it will sell itself via word of mouth and you will never hurt for business.   All the Class I railroads should relearn that lesson.   They understood it once.   I am not so sure they understand it today.    Though I am beginning to think CP is the closest to learning it again of all Class I's.     

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, January 10, 2022 10:21 AM

BaltACD
The Medical-Industrial Complex with Medicare and its payment policies raising the complexity to the Nth degree.

Ross Perot made his Billions off Medicare / Medicaid.   First by selling IBM Mainframes to states to process Medicare, second by starting EDS and selling the same states computer programmers on a contractual basis to program Medicare on the mainframe.   He understood the Federal  Government was in way over it's head with the complexity of the Medicare program and would probably never be able to afford decent IT people via Government Salary.   He was correct on both counts.

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, January 10, 2022 9:54 AM

Gramp
A company a friend works for reconditions large cylinders. As large as 177,000#. Their culture is imbued with safety first, quality second, productivity third. Top of the organization to bottom. They're very profitable. Too bad railways don't follow suit. 

I can see how safety could be a tradeoff with profit or productivity.  But why should safety be a tradeoff with quality?

I would make quality & safety first; and profit & productivity second.  

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Posted by Gramp on Monday, January 10, 2022 7:42 AM

SD70Dude

 

 
greyhounds
SD70Dude
You would never have risen to such a high position in a PSR railroad.  The first and only goal is keeping the operating ratio low and keeping the shareholders happy.  The easiest way to do this in the short term is to make cuts and not try anything new.   Finance people don't need to understand the nature of their company's operations because their jobs have nothing to do with that, this also applies to HR.  Their purpose is to cut costs and funnel money to the shareholders.  That's it.  If you can do that at one company, you can do it at any company
Well, I didn’t rise to such an elevated position anywhere.
 
But I strongly disagree with the idea that: “Finance people don’t need to understand the nature of their company’s operations.”
 
I’ll use the example of Katie Farmer, the new BNSF CEO. The railroad spent decades developing her recognized innate talents and abilities. Evaluating her as she was moved to positions of ever-increasing responsibility in various departments. She worked in operations, marketing, and finance.
 
Those departments, and others, all interact. And such interactions need to be understood by all those involved. This includes people well below the CEO level. Otherwise, there will be a sub-optimization of the company’s performance.
 
A well-run company will move talented people into various departments so that they develop diverse experience and knowledge. In the end it must all come together well and that won’t happen if one department dominates to the extent that over all corporate performance is harmed. Does every company do this? Hell NO. But the best ones do.
 
I do agree that “The Cult of the OR” got out of hand. Especially at the UP. 

 

 

"The Cult of the OR" was out of hand when it was first created.  I get it, businesses need to be profitable and have an obligation to run efficiently, but obsessively focusing on improving one number was never a good idea, and runs directly against the idea of adding revenue to existing trains where you can. 

The finance people have been in the driver's seat for years, and there is precious little real-world experience in today's executive suites.  I agree that all executives need to understand the fundamentals of the field in which their company operates, but that's not where the North American business world sits right now. 

We had a real good COO (Mike Cory) for a few years who had started out as a labourer on the shop floor in Transcona.  He was moved around the company over the years as you described, mostly in various transportation and operations managment positions though he did also spend some time in customer service and marketing.

I think he didn't last as COO because he kept spending money on silly things like double track and new locomotives, as well as adopting a more respectful approach to on-the-ground employee relations, all the Hunter-era harassment disappeared overnight after he was put in charge (it has slowly been coming back since he left). 

In his three years Cory did more for CN than every other executive of the last 20 years put together. 

 

A company a friend works for reconditions large cylinders. As large as 177,000#. Their culture is imbued with safety first, quality second, productivity third. Top of the organization to bottom. They're very profitable. Too bad railways don't follow suit. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, January 9, 2022 10:27 PM

tree68
 
Electroliner 1935
Does your board bill for calls? 

Yes, we do.  And we're a not-for-profit.

Unfortunately, we sometimes have to accept what the payer will pay (Medicare, Medicaid, insurance companies we contract with).  Otherwise, the patient is on the hook for it.  Our rates are kind of keyed off the Medi* rates.  Even with that, the two townships we cover both kick in cash - kind of an "opportunity cost."  They essentially pay to keep a paramedic in the house.

One hiccup we've encountered is where the insurance covers the bill, but sends the check to the patient, instead of the ambulance service.  Far too many people seem to think that means a new flat screen TV, or they have other bills they need to pay.

We staff a paramedic 24/7, and on weekdays our director and/or ops director (both paramedics) are also available should a second, simultaneous, call come in.  We try to staff the driver slot with a volunteer, but that's not always possible, so we end up paying them as well.

Our pay rates are on a par with other agencies in the area, but it's not unusual for medics (and EMTs) to work for several agencies so they can pay their bills.  

My agency runs around 1,000 calls a year, with something over half resulting in an actual transport to the hospital.  We also bill for "refusals," where the ambulance is called, but the patient decides they don't want to go.  If there is no patient contact, there's no bill - stuff like assaults, suicidal person, etc., where law enforcement takes care of it.  But there's still the fuel and wear and tear on the rig (which costs $120,000 or more).

It's a tough business.

The Medical-Industrial Complex with Medicare and its payment policies raising the complexity to the Nth degree.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, January 9, 2022 10:10 PM

Electroliner 1935
Does your board bill for calls?

Yes, we do.  And we're a not-for-profit.

Unfortunately, we sometimes have to accept what the payer will pay (Medicare, Medicaid, insurance companies we contract with).  Otherwise, the patient is on the hook for it.  Our rates are kind of keyed off the Medi* rates.  Even with that, the two townships we cover both kick in cash - kind of an "opportunity cost."  They essentially pay to keep a paramedic in the house.

One hiccup we've encountered is where the insurance covers the bill, but sends the check to the patient, instead of the ambulance service.  Far too many people seem to think that means a new flat screen TV, or they have other bills they need to pay.

We staff a paramedic 24/7, and on weekdays our director and/or ops director (both paramedics) are also available should a second, simultaneous, call come in.  We try to staff the driver slot with a volunteer, but that's not always possible, so we end up paying them as well.

Our pay rates are on a par with other agencies in the area, but it's not unusual for medics (and EMTs) to work for several agencies so they can pay their bills.  

My agency runs around 1,000 calls a year, with something over half resulting in an actual transport to the hospital.  We also bill for "refusals," where the ambulance is called, but the patient decides they don't want to go.  If there is no patient contact, there's no bill - stuff like assaults, suicidal person, etc., where law enforcement takes care of it.  But there's still the fuel and wear and tear on the rig (which costs $120,000 or more).

It's a tough business.

LarryWhistling
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Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
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There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Sunday, January 9, 2022 9:21 PM

tree68
I'm on the board of our local ambulance. 

 

I have had local first responders take my wife to the hospital twice. Once she was at a park district facility and a neighboring FD EMT crew filled in for our towns. EMTs On the second occasion, our towns FD EMTs handled the call. Saw in my Medicare & BCBS statements that it was billed and covered for one but the other never appeared. Does your board bill for calls?

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, January 9, 2022 9:04 PM

tree68
 
BaltACD
I am surprised that the bean counters don't want the OR to be in negative numbers. 

I'm on the board of our local ambulance.  We'd like to be able to make a little money by putting some in bank savings (they frown on NFPs making riskier investments), but the interest rates are so low that I often wonder aloud if we aren't lucky they aren't charging us for the priviledge of holding our money...

With the rates they are paying for our deposits versus what they are charging for loans - effectively we are paying for having our money depositedl

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Posted by CatFoodFlambe on Sunday, January 9, 2022 12:51 PM

jeffhergert

 Without the cutting and gutting and termoil that G-55 (a lighter form of PSR) and the more aggressive full blown PSR has brought.  Yet it wasn't enough for the activist investors and hedge funds.  They saw, and see, money that they think should be in their pocket.  

Jeff

 



This.     

Many funds (although by no means all), make their money primarily by identifying asset-rich companies, forcing them to convert the assets to cash (either by sale or stock buy-backs), then moving the cash to the fund owners.   Railroads were a perfect example of such with their massive real estate and equipment holdings.

Cash, unlike a rail line or a boxcar, can be readily moved to other investments or countries - whatever offers the best short or medium-term potential ROI. If you're a top executive of a railroad controlled by such a fund, you either get with the asset liquidation or are out of job in short order.   

 

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 24,882 posts
Posted by tree68 on Sunday, January 9, 2022 10:55 AM

BaltACD
I am surprised that the bean counters don't want the OR to be in negative numbers.

I'm on the board of our local ambulance.  We'd like to be able to make a little money by putting some in bank savings (they frown on NFPs making riskier investments), but the interest rates are so low that I often wonder aloud if we aren't lucky they aren't charging us for the priviledge of holding our money...

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

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