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60 minutes report on bogged down supply chain

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Posted by n012944 on Monday, November 15, 2021 1:05 PM

Convicted One

 

 
CMStPnP
Here is the 60 minutes report: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7jSsyQKIfE

 

 

Interesting how they state that the problem has only been getting worse of late, instead of better.

 

 

Snowballing, going into the busiest time of year.  Short of some historic collapse, I think it will be well into February until we see a dent in it.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, November 15, 2021 1:23 PM

BTW, in regards to inflation.....Papa Johns has shrunk their large pizza by 2-3 inch in diameter and increased the price slightly.    I just had one a few days ago Large is slightly larger than what Medium sized used to be.    Very noticeable.   My expectation was if inflation was short-term they would hold the line on prices and pizza sizes but apparently not this time.

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Posted by Convicted One on Monday, November 15, 2021 1:31 PM

Question:  regarding all those chassis stranded under returned empty containers. Since containers on chassis are only "one high", wouldn't they be better off  bringing in a couple reach stackers,  liberate the chassis, and then inventory the waiting empties  "five high"  until their turn to go back to sea?

Seems like it would be a more efficient use of floor space, and at the same time free up available chassis for more productive work.

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Posted by Convicted One on Monday, November 15, 2021 1:38 PM

FORCING ME TO WONDER,  what percentage  of returning containers are typically loaded on the boat for the return trip empty, versus how many are  loaded (at the port) with export goods before being sent back out onto the big salty?

Somebody's got to have a good excuse for not sending those empty containers out, and just watching the circle of finger pointing, I'm sure there's gotta be some blame to be handed out there.

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Posted by ClassA on Monday, November 15, 2021 4:12 PM

I saw a discussion recently about how the wealthy don't maintain much cash in the bank. They hold on to their investments and borrow against those when they need cash, but keep their actual banked cash low. 

 

Under such a circumstance, inflation would increase their wealth as it's tied up in shares or investments which will rise in value while cash value decreases. In such a scenario, would not the poorer person with less investments suffer more loss? 

I'm not rich, so I wouldn't really know first hand. :-P

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, November 15, 2021 4:48 PM

ClassA
I saw a discussion recently about how the wealthy don't maintain much cash in the bank. They hold on to their investments and borrow against those when they need cash, but keep their actual banked cash low.    Under such a circumstance, inflation would increase their wealth as it's tied up in shares or investments which will rise in value while cash value decreases. In such a scenario, would not the poorer person with less investments suffer more loss?  I'm not rich, so I wouldn't really know first hand. :-P

I feel I am wealthy so I can help you out here.   Inflation has more of an impact on the poor folks because their income is lower and your right most do not invest and live paycheck to paycheck.   

Stating that inflation increases money for the wealthy....I have to see some proof to that.    There has to be something that makes a person believe that inflated money moves in opposite directions based on income class.     So I would like to hear what it is exactly that makes people believe that. 

 Inflated Stock values is a hedge against inflation it is NOT a wealth increase in nominal terms of real money because of inflation.....more like not losing as much as someone that does not invest or holding steady with inflated values.    Any capital appreciation above the inflation rate is more due to the stocks performance not its' behavior due to inflation.

I don't use banks period.   They rip people off six ways from Sunday.    I use credit unions or Financial Investing accounts at wealth management firms.    Your correct that all my savings is invested in stocks except for a small amount of cash on hand.   Investing in stocks long-term is a hedge against inflation.    And in my opinion investing in stocks as a hedge against inflation is a hell of a lot safer than GOLD or SILVER.    Just my two cents.    Your going to run into people that for whatever reason think GOLD and SILVER are the GO-TO commodities for anything that weakens the NYSE.    Which is true if you can time their markets.   I have not met anyone that can though.   With GOLD and SILVER even the dollar cost averging method of investing is difficult at times.    Guess what people do in a recession?    They cash in their GOLD and SILVER.    Just like stocks, what goes up, goes down.

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Posted by Backshop on Monday, November 15, 2021 4:58 PM

People who keep large sums of money in banks are fools.  Your emergency fund of several months to a year or so is really all you need.  

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, November 15, 2021 7:00 PM

Backshop

People who keep large sums of money in banks are fools.  Your emergency fund of several months to a year or so is really all you need. 

When I hear the interest rates that organizations I'm familiar with are getting on their savings accounts (they can't really invest in the stock market, etc), I'm almost amazed that the banks aren't charging for the privilege of holding the money...

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Posted by mdw on Monday, November 15, 2021 8:04 PM

The matter of local governments not putting money into their terminals.  Do make a generalized statement.  The ports of LA and Long Beach have put billions of dollars into improvements at their ports....maybe where they need to invest more is automation.

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, November 15, 2021 9:40 PM

mdw
The matter of local governments not putting money into their terminals.  Do make a generalized statement.  The ports of LA and Long Beach have put billions of dollars into improvements at their ports....maybe where they need to invest more is automation.

The 'lack of investment' statement was directly pointed to the ports of LA and Long Beach.  While they may have put Billion$ into their port terminals, maybe they SHOULD have been investing tens or even hundreds of billion$.

In the video clips shown - the biggest present need, for whatever the multiple reasons, is more land area to ground containers - both inbound and outbound.  Each additional container level can be considered as stuffing an additional pound into the over full bag.  If they are talking container stacks being 9 high - that is, to my mind a safety issue as well as a material handling and logistics issue.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, November 15, 2021 9:46 PM

The report mentioned how the city-state of Singapore is spending 50 billion dollars on a new container port. Ports like Rotterdam an Hamburg are very automated, including transfer to railcars. Maybe single stack has some real advantages in turn around?

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, November 15, 2021 9:58 PM

charlie hebdo
The report mentioned how the city-state of Singapore is spending 50 billion dollars on a new container port. Ports like Rotterdam an Hamburg are very automated, including transfer to railcars. Maybe single stack has some real advantages in turn around?

There if virtually NO single handling of containers at any container terminal.  Very rarely, if ever, will a container be off loaded to a truck chassis whose driver, after the box is secured then drives out of the terminal and onto the boxes ultimate destination.  By the same token a Inbound box, loaded or empty, is rarely if ever driven by the over the road driver to shipside for the container crane to loade it on the vessel.

Container terminals are ripe with multiple handlings of the boxes, on terminal property between vessel and the terminal gate - both inbound and outbound.  To facilitate the multiple handlngs there has to be accessable GROUND to drop and retrieve the box at least one time and potentially multiple times between Terminal Gate and Vessel.  If you have the land, you can automate to your hearts content - if you have to start stacking boxes just to ground them on terminal property you are in trouble.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 7:06 AM

So now that we have this surge of demand, we know such surges are possible.  The surge may end, but we know there can be another.  So the supply chain weak link has to be strengthened.  The ports may be the week link. 

TWO QUESTIONS:

How long will it take to upgrade the ports to meet the demand surges we now know are possible?  

How long will it take for the supply chain to completely collaspse if the current demand spike continues without the ports being upgraded?

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 8:14 AM

Gramp
Did anyone else watch this? If you did, please comment with your opinion. 

I've watched the video several times now. And I kept getting this strange feeling that I had seen it before, long long ago. Couldn't get around that feeling, just couldn't place "where?"

Then it hit me. 

In the movie "Goodfellas" where after their big heist,  they decide some members are more deserving of a bullet rather than their share of the loot.  "Oh, so-and-so's not right in the head" or "what's-his-name betrayed my trust" etc...but the underlying motives are more along the lines of greed and jealousy, than principle.

 None of the guys interviewed appear to be the type "driving last years model" if you get my drift. Each appear to have made a comfortable living taking jobs away from American workers. But now that somebody else has snatched their fruit, they sit there bawling and finger pointing.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 8:37 AM

BaltACD
There if virtually NO single handling of containers at any container terminal.  Very rarely, if ever, will a container be off loaded to a truck chassis whose driver, after the box is secured then drives out of the terminal and onto the boxes ultimate destination.  By the same token a Inbound box, loaded or empty, is rarely if ever driven by the over the road driver to shipside for the container crane to loade it on the vessel. Container terminals are ripe with multiple handlings of the boxes, on terminal property between vessel and the terminal gate - both inbound and outbound.  To facilitate the multiple handlngs there has to be accessable GROUND to drop and retrieve the box at least one time and potentially multiple times between Terminal Gate and Vessel.  If you have the land, you can automate to your hearts content - if you have to start stacking boxes just to ground them on terminal property you are in trouble.

Yeah so the point with LB and LA, when they were initially constructed and to this very day they have not been able to acquire the land that they really need to run the operation efficiently.    Land has been at a premium because neither LA or LB wants to use emminent domain.    Nor do they want to use fill to build out.    If you ask me their biggest issue is lack of land.   Rotterdam is 31,000 acres, LA and LB combined is slightly less than 8000 acres.    Rotterdam serves less people than LA and LB as well.    Since Hamburg, Germany is another mega-port.   Hamburg can berth 320 ships at once.   I don't think LA or LB can do even 30% of that.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 8:54 AM

Euclid
So now that we have this surge of demand, we know such surges are possible.  The surge may end, but we know there can be another.  So the supply chain weak link has to be strengthened.  The ports may be the week link.

TWO QUESTIONS:

How long will it take to upgrade the ports to meet the demand surges we now know are possible?  

How long will it take for the supply chain to completely collaspse if the current demand spike continues without the ports being upgraded?

In answer to question one - a decade or more - it will take that long in litigation for land acquisition before any improvements are made to the land.

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 9:00 AM
 

charlie hebdo

The report mentioned how the city-state of Singapore is spending 50 billion dollars on a new container port. Ports like Rotterdam an Hamburg are very automated, including transfer to railcars. Maybe single stack has some real advantages in turn around?

 

If your're talking about IM trains. Clearance restrictions in Europe preclude doublestacks. European freight operators wish they could doublestack containers..

 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 9:01 AM

I was reading an article the other day about the 'truck driver shortage'.  It was mentioned that there is now a national clearing house of information for those that have transgressed the drug and alcohol laws.  A clearing house whose data is used when it comes to checking out 'new hires' for such transgressions.  The article basically stated that the current shortage of drivers in the industry was because drivers that previously floated between trucking companies while lying about their drug/alcohol backgrounds are now being kept out of the drivers seat by the accurate data of the clearinghouse.

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 9:28 AM

Euclid
TWO QUESTIONS: How long will it take to upgrade the ports to meet the demand surges we now know are possible?   How long will it take for the supply chain to completely collaspse if the current demand spike continues without the ports being upgraded?

Question 3: How would we ever cope if  it was war and not greed (and/or) incompetence clogging  ocean trade?

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Posted by adkrr64 on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 9:29 AM

What are the requirements with respect to truck drivers and previous D/A convictions? Are companies federally required to avoid hiring any such individuals in any capcity, ever? Or is there a sort of statute of limitations? If someone gets a DUI when they are 20, can they drive a truck when they are 30, if the ensuing 10 years were clean? Does it cargo type (i.e. HAZMAT) factor into how much flexibility there is around a previous D/A incident?

Would like to hear Shadow the Cat Owner's input on this.

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:23 AM

The port authorities have announced a delay in implementing the threatened fines.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/la-long-beach-ports-delay-fines-backlogged-cargo-81192119

They claim that since the fines were announced, marked improvement in flow has taken place, resulting in a 26% decline in overdue cargo.

Proof that government intervention can serve to remedy ills within the transportation sector .

 

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:39 AM

Convicted One

 

 
Euclid
TWO QUESTIONS: How long will it take to upgrade the ports to meet the demand surges we now know are possible?   How long will it take for the supply chain to completely collaspse if the current demand spike continues without the ports being upgraded?

 

Question 3: How would we ever cope if  it was war and not greed (and/or) incompetence clogging  ocean trade?

 

The supply chain  problem would be worse if there was a war.  I don't understand your point about the supply chain problem being caused by greed or incompetence.  Can you elaborate on that?  

I conclude that the problem is being caused by higher demand than the basic port infrastructure can handle. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:45 AM

SD60MAC9500
 

 

 
charlie hebdo

The report mentioned how the city-state of Singapore is spending 50 billion dollars on a new container port. Ports like Rotterdam an Hamburg are very automated, including transfer to railcars. Maybe single stack has some real advantages in turn around?

 

 

 

If your're talking about IM trains. Clearance restrictions in Europe preclude doublestacks. European freight operators wish they could doublestack containers..

 
 
 

I know, but transloading to/from flat cars is much quicker when not stacked.  Speeds up the flow.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:47 AM

My answers to question one and two would be:

Question One:  10 years minium.  

Question Two:  8-1/2 months maximum.  However the current demand spike may not continue past this Christmas season.  Although it is not clear how much of the spike is being caused by this Chirsmas season versus being caused by a longer range trend of everyone isolating and cacooning at home.  

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:54 AM

Euclid
I don't understand your point about the supply chain problem being caused by greed or incompetence.  Can you elaborate on that? 

 

Did you not watch the video?  Cost to transport containers up from $1,000 to over $25,000 while the carriers are enjoying "record profits"?  One importer forced to pay over one million dollars in  penalties during September alone?   "Woe is me"  etc? (why allow a good crisis go to waste?)

And as for incompetence, everybody in the video with their "he started it" round-robin of finger pointing?

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:14 AM

One thing in particular in that video resonated with me. The claim that the majority of available containers chassis were marooned under empty boxes waiting to go back on ships for the (empty) return run.

Aren't we always told of the unenviable chore in railroading of non-revenue return of empty box cars, hoppers, tankers...etc?  Wonder if something similar might be at work here?

My first hand experience is dated,.. going back to my involvement in warehousing in Oakland early 90's. But there was always a surplus of unwanted empties there, as well, The prevailing rule of thumb at the time was, if they could sell an empty box for $250. they were money ahead versus the cost to send it back to Asia empty. That's why you tended to notice an abundence of derelict containers sitting on the ground behind businesses being used for sheds and auxiliary storage...they were a dime a dozen compared to purpose-built similar structures.

Maybe the solution to freeing up chassis might require a little "outside the box" thinking?

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:19 AM

charlie hebdo
know, but transloading to/from flat cars is much quicker when not stacked.  Speeds up the flow.

In some cases, dramatically.  One of the promises of sideloading (as I learned about it as a kid from Kneiling's columns) is that a whole trainload can be offloaded in the time it would take for one car, and loaded in not much more time (the extra time being mostly safety-related).

That the sideloading systems in the '60s generally 'failed to thrive' economically is not generally related to their technical feasibility.  And in fact, where rapid asynchronous mode change becomes desirable, especially in countries that use flats for containerization... the advantage of sideloading for that reason alone may become compelling.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:40 AM

Convicted One,

Those cases of greed are basically the result of the supply chain failure.  I thought you were referring to greed causing the supply chain failure when you referred to it clogging ocean trade.

You said:

 

Question 3: How would we ever cope if  it was war and not greed (and/or) incompetence clogging  ocean trade?

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:59 AM

Rather than dwell on incidentals, why not focus on the main premise? War would make the billions spent to upgrade the ports  a waste.  Let's invest the money on becoming LESS dependent on globalism, not more.  Big Smile 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, November 16, 2021 12:15 PM

adkrr64

What are the requirements with respect to truck drivers and previous D/A convictions? Are companies federally required to avoid hiring any such individuals in any capcity, ever? Or is there a sort of statute of limitations? If someone gets a DUI when they are 20, can they drive a truck when they are 30, if the ensuing 10 years were clean? Does it cargo type (i.e. HAZMAT) factor into how much flexibility there is around a previous D/A incident?

Would like to hear Shadow the Cat Owner's input on this.

 

I don't know about the time frames. When we look at hiring someone with a CDL (Commercial Driver's License), our insurance company checks the national register. When someone with a CDL screws up, that goes on the register. If a driver's record is not clean enough for our insurance company to cover, we don't need them.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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