Maybe I'm out of touch. East of Kimball S.D. on the Dakota Southern RR is a ginormous grain elevator. It has a 12 or 13 track storage area that butts up to I-90. I noticed that the covered hoppers there were all red at one end, the way coal cars are painted. Do these run through a rotary dumper to empty the cars?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Not saying they can't exist, but I've never seen or heard of grain cars or other covered hoppers that can be rotary dumped.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I doubt that they exist, Norris. I've heard of Bethgons used in DDG (dry distillers' grain) service that have retractable roof covers that can be rotary-dumped at their destination, but those weren't normal covered hopper cars. You'd require a large roof hatch to make it doable, and the dumper itself would have to be a different length (by five or six feet) to make it possible. There would also be the problem of keeping out the crud that accumulates on the car roof (I recall seeing some pretty flourishing gardens on top of some cars).I wish you had a number for one of these cars, so I could check it out.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I doubt that they exist, Norris. I've heard of Bethgons used in DDG (dry distillers' grain) service that have retractable roof covers that can be rotary-dumped at their destination, but those weren't normal covered hopper cars. You'd require a large roof hatch to make it doable, and the dumper itself would have to be a different length (by five or six feet) to make it possible. There would also be the problem of keeping out the crud that accumulates on the car roof (I recall seeing some pretty flourishing gardens on top of some cars).I wish you had a number for one of these cars, so I could check it out. Google makes the cars you saw look like ordinary coal gons. Don't know what would be around there for those, though.
CShaveRRI doubt that they exist, Norris. I've heard of Bethgons used in DDG (dry distillers' grain) service that have retractable roof covers that can be rotary-dumped at their destination, but those weren't normal covered hopper cars.
Yeah, I'd bet that is what he is seeing - rotary gons originally built for coal service bumped to a different service and fitted with removable covers.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
An N-scale model version (and real-world reference photos on the following link) made by Kato:
https://www.pwrs.ca/announcements/view.php?ID=16816
Soo Line used to have some covered hoppers with a stripe on one end. I think it just denoted certain pools, though.
Backshop Soo Line used to have some covered hoppers with a stripe on one end. I think it just denoted certain pools, though.
Nah, that was just their late-sixties paint scheme.
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=soo70695&o=soo
There was also an ad slogan on the blue stripe: "Another Soo Line Colormark Car". Don't know what it meant.
The stripe was different color for specialty services. The blue stripe was for covered hoppers used in unit train service. A green stripe was used on the Soo's Reefer cars. I think that there was a red stripe used on special heavy-duty flat cars. Finally I think a batch of special pulpwood gondolas also had a special stripe.
cv_acr CShaveRR I doubt that they exist, Norris. I've heard of Bethgons used in DDG (dry distillers' grain) service that have retractable roof covers that can be rotary-dumped at their destination, but those weren't normal covered hopper cars. Yeah, I'd bet that is what he is seeing - rotary gons originally built for coal service bumped to a different service and fitted with removable covers.
CShaveRR I doubt that they exist, Norris. I've heard of Bethgons used in DDG (dry distillers' grain) service that have retractable roof covers that can be rotary-dumped at their destination, but those weren't normal covered hopper cars.
Those cars are used by Cargill and I believe they're the only ones to use them. I see them regularly coming out of the Cargill plant at Blair, NE. Cars are either BNSF cars or Cargill owned cars.
They don't haul grain to the processing plants, only by-products from the milling process that's used for animal feeds.
I doubt that they're the ones Murphy saw.
Jeff
Some years ago when Powder River was running lots of trains. The coal dust was mucking up the ballest and caused some derailments. There were several attmepts to stop the dust from blowing out of the cars and some interesting ideas. The cover on the coal porters was one. Tarps were tried, water mist during loading was tried, not the best answer. Saw unit trains coming through Rochelle at the time with different covers on the coal cars. Was interesting.
Ladder1 The coal dust was mucking up the ballest and caused some derailments.
If I remember the story correctly, there was a dealer in coal who advertised "blue coal." Supposedly, they sprayed to top of the loaded hoppers with blue paint (or something blue, anyhow) in order to keep the dust down.
I was standing on the passenger bridge in Utica, NY one day when a rare coal train came through. It was surrounded by a cloud of black dust.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Most of the mines in western Canada spray latex or something similar on top of the coal after it is loaded. CP re-sprays their trains enroute at Carlin, BC, along the grade up Notch Hill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA4D9uuvy9E
tree68Supposedly, they sprayed to top of the loaded hoppers with blue paint (or something blue, anyhow) in order to keep the dust down.
Strangely enough, one of the 'clean coal' approaches was to coat properly sized and washed coal with a mixture containing dolomite in a binder; this would flux some of the sulfur in combustion... reminiscent of whitewashing the coal for the 'New England Limited'.
It is nearly forgotten how much competition there was in the anthracite market when that fuel was commonly used for home and business heating. Thrifty Reading had the 'red dot' ('Red for Reading'!) which only had to speckle the coal to get the effect. If you sprinkled sulfurous leach water over anthracite you'd get a lovely blue-green patina and the result (like peacock coal) could be peddled for a premium...
Has anyone modeled the little hardboard disks that some companies tossed in with the coal? Glen Burn had red baseballs on theirs -- 'balls of fire', get it?
CShaveRR I doubt that they exist, Norris. I've heard of Bethgons used in DDG (dry distillers' grain) service that have retractable roof covers that can be rotary-dumped at their destination, but those weren't normal covered hopper cars. You'd require a large roof hatch to make it doable, and the dumper itself would have to be a different length (by five or six feet) to make it possible. There would also be the problem of keeping out the crud that accumulates on the car roof (I recall seeing some pretty flourishing gardens on top of some cars).I wish you had a number for one of these cars, so I could check it out. Google makes the cars you saw look like ordinary coal gons. Don't know what would be around there for those, though.
Overmod tree68 Supposedly, they sprayed to top of the loaded hoppers with blue paint (or something blue, anyhow) in order to keep the dust down. If I remember correctly, Glen Alden's 'blue coal' was sprayed at the breaker (the only-recently-demolished Huber Breaker in Ashley) and subsequent transportation was as-coated. I read somewhere that the stuff looked like chunks of pool-cue chalk when received for distribution. Strangely enough, one of the 'clean coal' approaches was to coat properly sized and washed coal with a mixture containing dolomite in a binder; this would flux some of the sulfur in combustion... reminiscent of whitewashing the coal for the 'New England Limited'. It is nearly forgotten how much competition there was in the anthracite market when that fuel was commonly used for home and business heating. Thrifty Reading had the 'red dot' ('Red for Reading'!) which only had to speckle the coal to get the effect. If you sprinkled sulfurous leach water over anthracite you'd get a lovely blue-green patina and the result (like peacock coal) could be peddled for a premium... Has anyone modeled the little hardboard disks that some companies tossed in with the coal? Glen Burn had red baseballs on theirs -- 'balls of fire', get it?
tree68 Supposedly, they sprayed to top of the loaded hoppers with blue paint (or something blue, anyhow) in order to keep the dust down.
If I remember correctly, Glen Alden's 'blue coal' was sprayed at the breaker (the only-recently-demolished Huber Breaker in Ashley) and subsequent transportation was as-coated. I read somewhere that the stuff looked like chunks of pool-cue chalk when received for distribution.
Ladder1 Some years ago when Powder River was running lots of trains. The coal dust was mucking up the ballest and caused some derailments. There were several attmepts to stop the dust from blowing out of the cars and some interesting ideas. The cover on the coal porters was one. Tarps were tried, water mist during loading was tried, not the best answer. Saw unit trains coming through Rochelle at the time with different covers on the coal cars. Was interesting.
Your facts are pretty much on target! I recall that at one point TRAINS had an article on the 'major problem' with the lines out of the Powder River area.
At about that time,{Shortly, after the UPRR had aquired the CNW(?)IIRC
] And BN(?) [nee: BNSF] was the 'owner in- charge' of the ROW Maintenance for the PRBasin's (?) major outbound trackage.
They were hit with a major maintenance project: The lines were suffering failure of the Roadbeds due to the ballast having been 'plugged' by the 'coal dust' coming off the cargos of coal, on the outbound trains. The " Costs of roadbed maintenance" were really excessive(?). That was when all the conversations about controling the dust off the trains really seemed to be a hot topic!
That was really, about the point that all the schemes for controling that dust took off. Most seemed to have been mentioned in this Thread by other posters.
Older grain elevators still have a device that could tilt over to 45 degrees (but not rotate) old grain loading boxcars [that largely no longer exist]
mudchickenOlder grain elevators still have a device that could tilt over to 45 degrees (but not rotate) old grain loading boxcars [that largely no longer exist]
Remember from when I hired out, canvassing all the Agencies on the Division to find out how many Grain Door's they had on hand each day.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
mudchicken Older grain elevators still have a device that could tilt over to 45 degrees (but not rotate) old grain loading boxcars [that largely no longer exist]
mudchickenOlder grain elevators still have a device that could tilt over to 45 degrees (but not rotate) old grain loading boxcars
CSSHEGEWISCH mudchicken Older grain elevators still have a device that could tilt over to 45 degrees (but not rotate) old grain loading boxcars [that largely no longer exist] The provincial grain elevators in Thunder Bay Ontario still had those devices in use at least as late as 1976.
Grain shipments in boxcars lasted until 1996 in western Canada, as the Hudson Bay Railway to Churchill, MB and some other branchlines with 60 lb rail and light duty bridges could not handle heavier covered hoppers.
These 40' grain boxcars were also the last major North American freight car fleet to have plain bearings. Even the cars that the federal and Manitoba governments paid to have rebuilt during the 80s kept theirs.
http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com/2020/04/canadas-grain-fleet-boxcars.html
timz mudchicken Older grain elevators still have a device that could tilt over to 45 degrees (but not rotate) old grain loading boxcars Trains had an article (1950s?) on car tilters. As I recall they didn't just rotate the car around its longitudinal axis -- the front end of the car tilted up/down as the car was rotating left/right, the way you would do if you were emptying the car by hand.
mudchicken Older grain elevators still have a device that could tilt over to 45 degrees (but not rotate) old grain loading boxcars
Trains had an article (1950s?) on car tilters. As I recall they didn't just rotate the car around its longitudinal axis -- the front end of the car tilted up/down as the car was rotating left/right, the way you would do if you were emptying the car by hand.
Unloading a box car. About 19 mins 15 secs in.
https://www.nfb.ca/film/grain_handling_in_canada/
jeffhergert timz mudchicken Older grain elevators still have a device that could tilt over to 45 degrees (but not rotate) old grain loading boxcars Trains had an article (1950s?) on car tilters. As I recall they didn't just rotate the car around its longitudinal axis -- the front end of the car tilted up/down as the car was rotating left/right, the way you would do if you were emptying the car by hand. Unloading a box car. About 19 mins 15 secs in. https://www.nfb.ca/film/grain_handling_in_canada/ Jeff
Murphy is it possible to post a pic of these covered hoppers?
Murphy Sidinghe did say that the cheapest coal they sold was pretty much a pile of coal dust that was hard to light.
If it was anthracite, that's called "culm" and originally discarded as being unmarketable. There were vast piles of the stuff at the breakers. Several people got the idea, "The coal operators are practically begging for people to take it off their hands, wouldn't it be a great, cheap fuel for our locomotives?" John Wooten of the Philadelphia & Reading came up with the solution - a huge grate in the firebox. Anthracite has a high heat content and produces little ash, but it burns slowly (is hard to ignite) so to get enough heat for a locomotive you need a bed of coals that is thin and large. Voila, the Wooten forebox and camelback locomotives
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootten_firebox
Coal also comes in sizes (separated by sieves at the mine or breaker)
https://coalpail.com/coal-heating-encyclopedia/anthracite-coal-sizes
Types of coal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthracite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bituminous_coal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat
BEAUSABREIf it was anthracite, that's called "culm"
When he said cheap coal that was more like a pile of coal dust, I thought of lignite. The Milwaukee Road had a unit train with special cars with covers that ran up in the Dakotas/Montana between a mine and power plant. There was also an article in Trains many years ago about a steam locomotive modified to use lignite as a test. IIRC, it was a Texas and Pacific engine, called the "snuff dipper" because of the texture of the coal.
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