adkrr64Also - seeing numerous references to box cars - would the existence of box cars potentially slow down an intermodal train due to speed restrictions on box cars vs. intermodal equipment?
Does anyone here have the interchange requirements for the Super C (or to lesser extent the BSM) handy?
The principal concern would be the trucks, and what couldn't be addressed with careful assembly and maintenance could be addressed by swapping in a better replacement pair a la MHC.
Logically a car in this service would require a fairly long-travel cushion underframe, and there might be some run-in concerns if the car is heavily loaded running behind one of those misblocked cuts of empty well cars NS seems to love to stringline. Again simple to determine and if necessary handle in the operations plan. Air resistance is greater with the wider gap but this is easier to address with dedicated cars, and is less concerning at 'modern PSR fuel conserving speeds'...
If I were doing it as outlined above I'd at least look at some kind of 'all door' car, with dunnage and damage-free loading arrangements to facilitate at least very quick unloading with best automation. That becomes more critical if a train is 'precision scheduled' to stop at a crossdocked platform rather than set the car(s) out at a separate "distribution center" at less than economical-block scale...
adkrr64 I have heard numerous anecdotal stories over the years about how the operations side of the RR business can torpedo new business ideas from marketing because the new ideas don't fit into the current/ preferred operational paradigms. Having to add even a few cars to a train that did not have them before is more work for someone. Is this a potential thorn in the side of this plan, or are we talking about such an inconsequential amount of work so as not to be an issue? Also - seeing numerous references to box cars - would the existence of box cars potentially slow down an intermodal train due to speed restrictions on box cars vs. intermodal equipment?
My enthusiam of yesterday is somewhat tempered today.
First of all it is next to impossible to talk to anyone at NS these days. I called numerous times, the Calumet Yard in Chicago, Intermodal phone number, Marketing phone numbers, and a couple others.
The two people I talked to in Intermodal were not aware of the LCL program, nor did they seem interested in helping. ONe actually (Robert) hung up on me in mid sentence.
I was told to reach the Marketing Dept...which I followed the prompts for Marketing....and it lead me back to the original message asking me to enter the number for the department needed. A never ending circle it was.
I get it that in a large company there will be associates who are unaware of a new program. What I do not get is the inability to reach a person who can at least assist the caller.
If NS is going to "sell" this program based on the numerous attempts I made today...this program will have a very difficult time in succeeding.
The potential for success is there. I was able to secure an LTL rate from a national carrier and for 1000 pounds the cost was $457.00 with 3 day transit. The size submitted was for a standard pallet of what I would consider to be class 55 freight....think along the lines of a pallet of paper or perhaps fasteners/nails, etc. Looking at my 1997 Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia, the interior of a 60 ft box car is appx 60'9" in length by 9'6" width. Interior height vary but can be up to 13'0....lots of capacity.
Thus, if a boxcar held 30 pallets (it could) each 1000 pounds one could theoritically see revenue of $13710...assuming the $457 rate is accurate (probably is too high) and each of the 30 shipments was 1000 pounds. Doubtful if the boxcar would be filled to capacity, but given time it might. It is entirely possible that a boxcar of LCL freight could generate $8-10000 of revenue, split between railroad and two carriers.
Worth it? Depends on the allocated terminal costs.
This is my scrap paper analysis...open to suggestions and critiques.
Ed
MP173The potential for success is there. I was able to secure an LTL rate from a national carrier and for 1000 pounds the cost was $457.00 with 3 day transit. The size submitted was for a standard pallet of what I would consider to be class 55 freight....think along the lines of a pallet of paper or perhaps fasteners/nails, etc. Looking at my 1997 Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia, the interior of a 60 ft box car is appx 60'9" in length by 9'6" width. Interior height vary but can be up to 13'0....lots of capacity. Thus, if a boxcar held 30 pallets (it could) each 1000 pounds one could theoritically see revenue of $13710...assuming the $457 rate is accurate (probably is too high) and each of the 30 shipments was 1000 pounds. Doubtful if the boxcar would be filled to capacity, but given time it might. It is entirely possible that a boxcar of LCL freight could generate $8-10000 of revenue, split between railroad and two carriers.
Good Grief! That's $45.70/cwt. (Unless I got the math wrong, which is entirely possible these days.) Things sure have changed. I never dreamed of freight rates that high.
Anyway, 30 such pallets load the boxcar with only 15 tons of freight. If they can devise a system to "Double Stack" pallets in the boxcar just think of the possible per car revenue. I know some trailers had two levels for loading and it's probably possible in a boxcar.
Greyhound...those rates are probably high. Our Shipping Manager was too busy for him to give me a 'legit' rate with XPO LTL for 1000 of class 55 to Atlanta. We are buried with outbound orders with no end in sight.
My frustration is with NS's inability to even have a contact on this. The one Intermodal Dept person told me to talk to either Accounting or Marketing to get a rate. Yet, both prompts were dead ends on the phone loop.
there is plenty of freight which can be double stacked, I used to see it on the inbound pups from CF and other line haul trailers. These 60 ft boxcars could generate significant revenue...if properly marketed and sold. Again, I believe the key is for NS to provide the wholesale and let the local Chicago carriers pound the phones and give out Chicago Black Hawk Tickets and play golf with key people.
On the other hand, perhaps NS was having a bad phone day and some of those voice mails I left will be answered.
Amtrak ran boxcars on their trains, for a while, anyhow. Given the fact that the LCL cars would be in dedicated service, it would not be a reach to believe they could be configured for high-speed service.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
MP173 My enthusiam of yesterday is somewhat tempered today. First of all it is next to impossible to talk to anyone at NS these days. I called numerous times, the Calumet Yard in Chicago, Intermodal phone number, Marketing phone numbers, and a couple others. The two people I talked to in Intermodal were not aware of the LCL program, nor did they seem interested in helping. ONe actually (Robert) hung up on me in mid sentence. I was told to reach the Marketing Dept...which I followed the prompts for Marketing....and it lead me back to the original message asking me to enter the number for the department needed. A never ending circle it was. I get it that in a large company there will be associates who are unaware of a new program. What I do not get is the inability to reach a person who can at least assist the caller. If NS is going to "sell" this program based on the numerous attempts I made today...this program will have a very difficult time in succeeding. The potential for success is there. I was able to secure an LTL rate from a national carrier and for 1000 pounds the cost was $457.00 with 3 day transit. The size submitted was for a standard pallet of what I would consider to be class 55 freight....think along the lines of a pallet of paper or perhaps fasteners/nails, etc. Looking at my 1997 Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia, the interior of a 60 ft box car is appx 60'9" in length by 9'6" width. Interior height vary but can be up to 13'0....lots of capacity. Thus, if a boxcar held 30 pallets (it could) each 1000 pounds one could theoritically see revenue of $13710...assuming the $457 rate is accurate (probably is too high) and each of the 30 shipments was 1000 pounds. Doubtful if the boxcar would be filled to capacity, but given time it might. It is entirely possible that a boxcar of LCL freight could generate $8-10000 of revenue, split between railroad and two carriers. Worth it? Depends on the allocated terminal costs. This is my scrap paper analysis...open to suggestions and critiques. Ed
Hopefully someone in senior managment at NS reads your comment and addresses it (and finds out who Robert is and fires him).
I dont really would want him fired, but wow...I was trained to answer the phone and listen.
Perhaps he needs a bit of training.
MP173 I dont really would want him fired, but wow...I was trained to answer the phone and listen. Perhaps he needs a bit of training. Ed
Maybe more training on how to use a telephone. Actually not a bad idea..
greyhounds Anyway, 30 such pallets load the boxcar with only 15 tons of freight. If they can devise a system to "Double Stack" pallets in the boxcar just think of the possible per car revenue. I know some trailers had two levels for loading and it's probably possible in a boxcar.
Ulrich MP173 I dont really would want him fired, but wow...I was trained to answer the phone and listen. Perhaps he needs a bit of training. Ed Maybe more training on how to use a telephone. Actually not a bad idea..
"Hello, you've reached the PSR Railroad. How may you help us?"
Jeff
MP173I dont really would want him fired, but wow...I was trained to answer the phone and listen. Perhaps he needs a bit of training.
Maybe he knows something, but either it's going to affect him negatively or he's been instructed to keep his mouth shut.
SD60MAC9500Already available.
Like it. Like it a lot.
I'd put some kind of roof over it for the snow and rain. And I'd have some kind of a mobile home for the workers to get warm, use a restroom, eat lunch, have some coffee, etc. Aside from that, this is gold.
MP173; just read an article in the October TRAINS concerning NS' LCL service. This would appear to be an Industrial Products service offering and NOT an intermodal service product.
Based on this, queries to intermodal people at NS may not be fruitful as was your experience. I'd hope that inquiry to NS' Industrial Products folks would be more successful.
CW
jeffhergert"Hello, you've reached the PSR Railroad. How may you help us?" Jeff
Still in training.
Thanks for that info Juniata Man. I will reach out and try to break thru the phone barrier today (time permitting).
So here's my question. Okay, questions, plural.
Let's say we have 5 pallets of books, and they need to go from Chicago to Miami. Neither the shipper or the receiver has a rail siding.
How long will it take an efficient trucking company to do this door-to-door?
How long will NS's LCL service take, including its first- and last-mile partners?
Let's assue that the first and last "miles" are each fifteen miles. And let's assume that from pickup by the NS subcontractor to when the boxcar with our load is coupled on to the intermodal train is 18 hours.
Who gets the load there first?
And is NS for sure going to have the better price? (It seems like they would have to, to get this going, unless they are way faster, which I doubt.)
Except for when the driver is sleeping or stopping to eat, the long-haul truck is always on the move. Whereas the railroad will have some inescapable dwell time. Who has the most down time?
The motor carrier will always have the shortest route, plus the ability to go 70 mph, not 60.
I'm not sure which one transloads the individual pallets more. If it's a truck, is the drill always just little truck, big truck, little truck (if the origin and destination are high volume paces like Chicago and Miami?)
Finally, are/will the rates be public knowledge?
You're starting with the wrong question. Very seldom will the train 'get it there quicker', either door-to-door or tailgate-to-tailgate.
The first question is whether it can be done more inexpensively than the all-truck alternative (and this has two parts: cheaper to the shipper, or cheaper to the LTL carrier of record). The second question is whether it can be done reliably: pick a time and arrive within a few minutes. The third question is risk of various kinds, including accidental delays or driver concerns.
I made very careful studies on reducing dwell time in high-speed intermodal container freight. Some of that applies to trains containing either LTL company bridge traffic in boxcars or loaded LTL trailers in particular lanes between distribution centers or areas.
Mg suspicion is that 'the public' never sees the railroad part of the billing as a separate item; it'll be an end-to-end service. I was hoping we'd get some detailed NS marketing insight, but it appears they ain't talkin'.
It's roughly 1400 miles to Miami from Chicago. You're going to be part of a multi pickup load on either a truckload or LTL direct to Miami yes those do exist reefer carriers love loadsback to Florida and California like these. Figure about a buck a mile for everything on the OTR side if you're going with as part of a multi pick and stop load. Time elapse to get it there 20 hours of driving time roughly so if it's a team next day solo 2 day service. I know my boss tries for a minimum dollar a mile for any part of a multi drop or pickup load. So say we have 3 pickup for a load each shipment pays a dollar a mile for their spot on the trailer from the pickup point to the destination.
The 5 pallet shipment from Chicago to Miami will be an LTL shipment. It will probably not go directly on a single truck with either single or team driver UNLESS someone is paying to expedite this movement or it is on a partial truckload shipment and it is brokered out. These partial truckload shipments are typically 1/2 to 3/4 of the volume of the trailer...leaving room for a "partial". There are carriers that specialize in these partial truckload or "volume LTL" freight moves.
So, here is what used to occur when I was in the LTL business 32 years ago.
Pickup in Chicago by a local driver who is based out of a local terminal. This driver leaves in the morning with possibly 10-15 deliveries in his territory. Truck is typically loaded overnight or early morning. Driver makes deliveries, typically in morning and mid afternoon is empty and then starts making pickups in his territory. The five pallets of books are picked up along with other pickups in his territory. Typically a shipper will tender several such LTL shipments at the time of pickup. So, the driver may pickup 5 pallets of books for Miami, 1 pallet of books for Memphis, and 3 pallets for Atlanta.
Driver returns to terminal with these 3 shipments plus others picked up. Trailer is unloaded either by driver or by dock crew. Bill of lading is converted into the freight bill at some point with information regarding shipper/consignee, pieces, weight, commodity, and the tracking number.
Typically the local terminal will load freight to the "Break Bulk terminal" which serve the terminal. This is a massive consolidation terminal, often 100 - 200 doors in which trailers are unloaded and freight is then loaded either for destination terminals (if sufficient volume) or to the break bulk serving the destination.
So, lets say the carrier has break bulk terminal in Atlanta. It will load the Miami 5 pallets and the 3 pallets for Atlanta, plus other freight generated for that terminal and the terminals supported by the break bulk. Atlanta may break for possibly 25-50 terminals in the Southeast. There will probably be multiple trailers each night moving between Chicago and Atlanta. These might be 28 ft pups or 53 ft trailers. Pups allow for "drops and kicks" en route. Perhaps Chicago can load a 28 ft pup for Chattanooga along with a 28 ft for Atlanta. The 28 ft will be dropped in Chatt. and perhaps a 28 ft picked up for the Atlanta break bulk. Similar to Block Swaps with the rails.
Atlanta breaks the trailer and delivers the 3 pallets to local consignee and loads a trailer for Miami including the five pallets...and others.
Memphis is routed via either Memphis direct or the break bulk servicing Memphis.
Typical service level would be four days to Miami and possibly overnight to Memphis...if not then 2nd day. I have had freight delivered overnight from NW Indiana to Jonesboro, Ar using LTL carriers...just the right combination of terminal network for that to occur.
At Miami the inbound trailer is unloaded and cross docked to a local trailer and out for delivery.
Rates used to be public, now they are either public or contract. The LTL rate structure is based on several factors....classification of freight - from class 50 - steel and heavy metal products to class 500 - feathers. Rates are also based on mileage and weight. There is always a minimum rate (perhaps $200) with rates for less than 500#, 500 - 1000#, 1000 - 2000#, 2000 - 5000#, and above.
This is a very efficient method of shipping partial loads from point to point....very similar to UPS/FedX for parcels, and the railroads for single or multiple carloads...or even airlines with hub and spoke operations.
I enjoyed my 10 year career in LTL but the industry in the 1980s was in turmoil. Lots of big carriers filed chapter 11 and left the industry. Big carriers such as Consolidated Freightways (CF) are gone. PIE - gone. Ryder - gone. Smith - gone. American - gone...my small carrier - gone.
What NS is hoping to provide (in my opinion) is the line haul between terminals and then have a local carrier make delivery. I think it can be done, but NS cannot sell this. They do not have the sales DNA to make it work. Let the local carriers sell it.
Hope this helps.
ed
Shadow the Cats ownert's roughly 1400 miles to Miami from Chicago. You're going to be part of a multi pickup load on either a truckload or LTL direct to Miami yes those do exist reefer carriers love loadsback to Florida and California like these. Figure about a buck a mile for everything on the OTR side if you're going with as part of a multi pick and stop load. Time elapse to get it there 20 hours of driving time roughly so if it's a team next day solo 2 day service.
So just let me make sure I understand what you're saying correctly.
This truck is going to average 70 MPH from Chicago to Miami while making stops for partial unloading?
greyhounds So just let me make sure I understand what you're saying correctly. This truck is going to average 70 MPH from Chicago to Miami while making stops for partial unloading?
MP173Typically the local terminal will load freight to the "Break Bulk terminal" which serve the terminal. This is a massive consolidation terminal, often 100 - 200 doors in which trailers are unloaded and freight is then loaded either for destination terminals (if sufficient volume) or to the break bulk serving the destination.
I remember both Roadway and Carolina built two huge break bulk facilities in Chicago Heights, IL.
I thought a rail intermodal terminal should be put right there.
I remember both Roadway and Carolina built two huge break bulk facilities in Chicago Heights, IL. I thought a rail intermodal terminal should be put right there.
Just like UPS has at Willow Springs.
MP173 Typically the local terminal will load freight to the "Break Bulk terminal" which serve the terminal. This is a massive consolidation terminal, often 100 - 200 doors in which trailers are unloaded and freight is then loaded either for destination terminals (if sufficient volume) or to the break bulk serving the destination.
[/quote]
greyhounds Shadow the Cats owner t's roughly 1400 miles to Miami from Chicago. You're going to be part of a multi pickup load on either a truckload or LTL direct to Miami yes those do exist reefer carriers love loadsback to Florida and California like these. Figure about a buck a mile for everything on the OTR side if you're going with as part of a multi pick and stop load. Time elapse to get it there 20 hours of driving time roughly so if it's a team next day solo 2 day service. So just let me make sure I understand what you're saying correctly. This truck is going to average 70 MPH from Chicago to Miami while making stops for partial unloading?
Shadow the Cats owner t's roughly 1400 miles to Miami from Chicago. You're going to be part of a multi pickup load on either a truckload or LTL direct to Miami yes those do exist reefer carriers love loadsback to Florida and California like these. Figure about a buck a mile for everything on the OTR side if you're going with as part of a multi pick and stop load. Time elapse to get it there 20 hours of driving time roughly so if it's a team next day solo 2 day service.
"Time elapse to get it there 20 hours of driving time roughly so if it's a team next day solo 2 day service."
It says driving time.
Lithonia Operator So here's my question. Okay, questions, plural. Let's say we have 5 pallets of books, and they need to go from Chicago to Miami. Neither the shipper or the receiver has a rail siding. How long will it take an efficient trucking company to do this door-to-door? How long will NS's LCL service take, including its first- and last-mile partners? Let's assue that the first and last "miles" are each fifteen miles. And let's assume that from pickup by the NS subcontractor to when the boxcar with our load is coupled on to the intermodal train is 18 hours. Who gets the load there first? And is NS for sure going to have the better price? (It seems like they would have to, to get this going, unless they are way faster, which I doubt.) Except for when the driver is sleeping or stopping to eat, the long-haul truck is always on the move. Whereas the railroad will have some inescapable dwell time. Who has the most down time? The motor carrier will always have the shortest route, plus the ability to go 70 mph, not 60. I'm not sure which one transloads the individual pallets more. If it's a truck, is the drill always just little truck, big truck, little truck (if the origin and destination are high volume paces like Chicago and Miami?) Finally, are/will the rates be public knowledge?
Pickup today (Wednesday), delivered by Friday or very latest Monday am.
UlrichPickup today (Wednesday), delivered by Friday or very latest Monday am.
Which one? The train or the truck? Or both could accomplish this?
Lithonia Operator Ulrich Pickup today (Wednesday), delivered by Friday or very latest Monday am. Which one? The train or the truck? Or both could accomplish this?
Ulrich Pickup today (Wednesday), delivered by Friday or very latest Monday am.
Truck. But often it isn't about speed.. its about price and consistency. Most people would be happy to wait a day or three longer if the price is lower and the service levels are consistent. Nowadays (thanks to advances in inventory management) customers can often predict their needs weeks and even months ahead of time.. so they can order their product and have it delivered using a slower cheaper mode. Smart cusotmers are going to question the need and the cost of moving product across country at 700 plus miles a day.. Most of the time that's not needed..it goes into a warehouse where it sits..
charlie hebdo"Time elapse to get it there 20 hours of driving time roughly so if it's a team next day solo 2 day service." It says driving time.
Success...partially.
I left a voice mail and a phone call was returned yesterday by a person very familiar with the program. He directed me to another person (Chicago) who could provide more information. Unfortunately I incorrectly wrote the email address for said person and my correspondence was kicked back.
NS has expanded the service to Miami, and New Jersey in addition to Atlanta. Progress is slow and NS is using a cross dock at an offsite warehouse. Service is not swift...but they are targeting commodities which do not require expedited service. That freight is out there.
As I pickup more info, I will pass it along. NS contact even said they would meet with me...I was full disclosure - couldnt promise business, but had lots of questions.
Greyhound...yes, those were two big break bulks at the corner of US 30 and I394. Great location for those terminals. ABF is now utilizing the old Carolina terminal as they merged (one of the mergers that worked). ABF is using considerable amount of intermodal on NS these days. The NS train 21Z (Rutherford - Chicago) will often have 20+ ABF pups and 53 ft trailers. One of my favorite NS intermodals as it is heavy TOFC with UPS, ABF, YRC, and others. As an old trucking industry employee, it warms my heart to see those LTL trailers.
More to follow.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.