BaltACDI believe Electric Lock switches create the 5 minute delay within their circuitry. The electric lock circuitry is designed to distinguish track occupancy between the Main track and the 'other' track. If track occupancy on the Main is detected when the attempt is made to operate the switch - the switch will operate immediately without any delay.
Some do. Others have a timer that has to run down if you're entering the main, regardless of track occupancy before the switch will allow you to throw it. Those can be 5 minute timers - or I've used some that were almost 20 minutes. Clearing the main, the switch should unlock right away.
You remove the padlock, hit the foot pedal, and then wait the designated amount of time for the light to come on (or change colors) before the keeper unlocks so you can throw it.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
tree68I recall reading years ago that some switches had a timer built in for that purpose. I don't recall if the timer prevented the switch from being thrown or simply served as a reminder not to throw the switch until the timer ran out.
I believe Electric Lock switches create the 5 minute delay within their circuitry. The electric lock circuitry is designed to distinguish track occupancy between the Main track and the 'other' track.
If track occupancy on the Main is detected when the attempt is made to operate the switch - the switch will operate immediately without any delay.
If track occupancy is on the 'other' track AND NOT on the Main Track, the circuitry will 'shunt' the Main Track to drop any signals that may have been lined to their most restrictive indication and also start a timer (nominally 5 minutes - the time can be set to different values), after the timer has run the switch can be manipulated as desired.
There is also a Electric Lock switch that the Train Dispatcher directly controls the locking mechanism from the Dispatchers model board.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
"Rail Traffic Controller" seems like a modern term. Back in the day, did Canadian roads also use the term "dispatcher?"
In the case of this accident, will the RTC almost certainly get fired?
Still in training.
I recall reading years ago that some switches had a timer built in for that purpose. I don't recall if the timer prevented the switch from being thrown or simply served as a reminder not to throw the switch until the timer ran out.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The 5 minute rule is a holdover from the days of train orders and operating without onboard radios. I think it's still in the CROR for ABS territory but it has been gone from the CTC rules for at least as long as I've been working. Same goes for having to approach the next signal prepared to stop if you were delayed in the block.
CN no longer has any ABS territory in Canada and that portion of the CROR is not in our rulebook, so newer employees have likely never heard of those concepts.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude jeffhergert Was the hand throw switch equipped with an electric lock or governing signal? Our rules require one or the other for hand throw switches within CTC (depending on allowed speed on main tracks or controlled sidings, etc.) to allow a train or engine to clear the CTC controlled track in the first place. No idea if this switch had an electric lock or not, but it did not have a signal. I've never actually seen an electric lock in person as CN doesn't have any left in western Canada, but it might be different down east. I'm not aware of any such rule existing in Canada, I've cleared and re-entered the main track at plain old hand operated switches in 70 or 80 mph passenger territory before. I've seen the "must not clear the main track" message in old timetables, but the current ones do not contain any such requirement. I've had foremen put on behind me without contacting us on a number of occasions, so I don't believe they are required to contact the train here. They are required to make a radio broadcast stating their location, track and direction once they have put on.
jeffhergert Was the hand throw switch equipped with an electric lock or governing signal? Our rules require one or the other for hand throw switches within CTC (depending on allowed speed on main tracks or controlled sidings, etc.) to allow a train or engine to clear the CTC controlled track in the first place.
Was the hand throw switch equipped with an electric lock or governing signal? Our rules require one or the other for hand throw switches within CTC (depending on allowed speed on main tracks or controlled sidings, etc.) to allow a train or engine to clear the CTC controlled track in the first place.
No idea if this switch had an electric lock or not, but it did not have a signal. I've never actually seen an electric lock in person as CN doesn't have any left in western Canada, but it might be different down east.
I'm not aware of any such rule existing in Canada, I've cleared and re-entered the main track at plain old hand operated switches in 70 or 80 mph passenger territory before. I've seen the "must not clear the main track" message in old timetables, but the current ones do not contain any such requirement.
I've had foremen put on behind me without contacting us on a number of occasions, so I don't believe they are required to contact the train here. They are required to make a radio broadcast stating their location, track and direction once they have put on.
On CSX (and where the FRA rules govern) a main track switch in signaled territory must be electrically locked IF 1. a train can clear in the track the switch governs and 2. the normal track speed for that territory is in excess of 20 MPH.
If a train clears in a non-electrically locked track - the Train Dispatcher 'is supposed to' put out a train message restricting that particular segment of track to a maximum speed of 20 MPH.
Any train entering a track from a non-electrically locked track is to 1. Obtain Train Dispatcher permission to open the swich and occupy the track. 2. Open the switch to the signaled track. 3. Wait 5 minutes to see if another train comes into view. 4. If the way is clear - enter the main track with the train
Rules are different between US and Canada.
Our dispatchers can also give authority to enter a CTC controlled track behind trains. Before giving such authority, the person requesting must have verified that the train has passed the location where the main track will be entered. The person must now determine this by contacting the train by radio, either directly or through the dispatcher. It is no longer permitted to only use visual identification because of a mishap a few years ago.
MOW/Signal people also will notify the train once they've obtained authority that they'll be occupying the track behind them. "Contact Foreman Smith before making any reverse moves."
Our (on the company I work for) current version of PTC wouldn't have prevented this. Our hand throws aren't yet wired into the system. Since the train on the main had already went past the last governing signal, PTC wouldn't have detected the open switch in that circumstance. Similar to our incident at Stanwood, IA a couple of summers back.
Jeff
Appreciate the updates 70Dude. I figured this was a RTC error/miscommunication.
Double track CTC. In Canada a written CTC authority is called a track warrant, our method of dark territory operation is called OCS (Occupancy Control System), and an authority to occupy the main track in OCS is called a clearance.
In our CTC system it is possible for the RTC to give another train or foreman permission to occupy the main track immediately behind another train, even if the first train is still in the same block.
When giving such an authority the RTC is supposed to first obtain an o/s time from someone out in the field in order to ensure that the preceding train is indeed past the location. I've done this a number of times over the years.
Is the territory truly DARK or is it Track Warrants in conjunction with a Automatic Block Signal System?
I've heard a bit more information about what happened here, and the aftermath.
532's engineer suffered the worst physical injuries, his surgery went well and he is recovering at home. The others are alright physically but how bad their mental scars are remains to be seen. I hope they are all able to get whatever help they need and eventually recover.
The RTC gave 532 permission (a track warrant) to enter the north main track at a hand operated switch in front of 149, erroneously believing that 149 had already passed the location of the switch. When the computer started giving alarms/warnings that there was another train already in the block the RTC ignored/overrode them and issued the authority anyway.
532's crew lined the switch after 149 had already entered the block on a permissive signal indication, but they had not yet pulled out onto the north main track when the collision occurred.
As they were approaching the spur at close to track speed (50 to 60 mph) one of 149's crew called 532 to warn them that they would be passing right beside them at speed, this is a common courtesy between crews but is not required by the rulebook or operating manual. It is only at this point that the crews realized a mistake had been made and a crash was imminent. 149's crew started braking and as a result were only doing about 30 mph upon impact.
This was very, very bad, but it could have been a lot worse.
No PTC in Canada, and depending on what happened here it might not have been any help. Or it could have prevented this.
The trains involved are westbound intermodal Z14921 02 and eastbound local switcher L53231 02. 149 is a priority Montreal to Chicago train, and on this day it was over 12,000' and nearly 15,000 tons, conventional, and had two ET44ACs for power (3046 and 3102). 532 originated in Brockville, not far to the west, and had a pair of GP38-2s (CN 4799 and IC 9629).
This part of the Kingston Subdivision is double track CTC, with a unsignalled industrial track to the north of the two main tracks. There is a hand operated crossover between the north main track and the industrial lead immediately east of the Edward Street overpass. One photo appears to show underailed intermodal cars occupying part of this crossover, with the crash occurring immediately to the west of the overpass.
The fact that those few cars are not derailed indicates that the switch was lined away from the north track and into the industrial lead when 149 arrived there.
Also, I was told that the injury count is one serious (perhaps life threatening), one in shock, and two with relatively minor injuries.
The Kingston Sub sees more VIA trains than freights, and P42s with LRC coaches are allowed 100 mph over much of the line. Lucky that none of them were involved here.
As I write this the Kingston Sub is still shut down in the area. VIA has chosen to reroute its Montreal-Toronto trains through Ottawa, one westbound that was nearing the crash site had its passengers transferred to buses for the remainder of their journey to Toronto.
Not far from me, but on the other side of the river. Looks like a mess.
They had a big tire fire up that way yesterday. I doubt the two are related.
Lithonia Operator It appears to have been head-on. Does Canada have PTC on primary main lines?
It appears to have been head-on. Does Canada have PTC on primary main lines?
Additional video
https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/one-person-injured-in-prescott-ont-freight-train-collision-1.5570966
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/one-injured-as-cn-trains-collide-in-ontario/
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.