bedellNow we are about to move out of Colorado and head back east. So will our "charm" still work?
(Yes, I know Colorado is not Wyoming, but chuckle anyway...)
We live in Canon City, CO right now so when we drive west on US 50 along the Tenessee Pass line it is easy to see what a huge job it would be to get the line open again. From that pespective the chances look slim.
That being said, after we left South Western New York in 1999 the old Erie Lackawanna main was reopened. Then after we left Virginia in 2013 number 611 was brought back to operating condition. Now we are about to move out of Colorado and head back east. So will our "charm" still work?
Murphy SidingI can't imagine why anyone other than UP would want control of the tunnel.
The owner of a trucking company and the Ambassador Bridge across the Detroit River into Canada, bought the Conrail tunnels under the Detroit River. He then decided to build a biger bridge instead, and sold the dual tunnels back to railroad interests with the condition that the tunnels could not be converted for comepting truck traffic.
I have been thru a couple of long single lane auto tunnels in Alaska and New Zealand. The Alaska tunnel is also shared with ARR, with alternating times for both auto directions and trains. Coverting the Moffat Tunnel to alternating direction auto/truck traffic would be a welcome alternative for drivers going over the hairpin switchbacks of Berthoud Pass, especially in winter.
Multiple maps. Go here, scroll down.
https://www.railwayage.com/freight/class-i/canadian-pacific-kansas-city-southern-will-merge-into-the-first-usmca-railroad-cpkc/?RAchannel=home
Bruce Kelly "Tennessee Pass can handle double stacks (and it did prior to the shutdown). Double stack trains on the Moffat route would magicallly transform themselves into single stack trains due to tunnel clearances.." Now, take a look at the maps associated with the CP-KCS merger proposal, particularly the one representing intermodal, and note the IM corridor they foresee between the Pacific Northwest and multiple locations in the Texas-Gulf-Mexico region.
"Tennessee Pass can handle double stacks (and it did prior to the shutdown). Double stack trains on the Moffat route would magicallly transform themselves into single stack trains due to tunnel clearances.."
Now, take a look at the maps associated with the CP-KCS merger proposal, particularly the one representing intermodal, and note the IM corridor they foresee between the Pacific Northwest and multiple locations in the Texas-Gulf-Mexico region.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Actually, I think CP will put in an offer and then a month later CN will come in with a bigger offer.
(Ducks the first thrown tomato and then runs for cover.)
Falcon48 Murphy Siding If someone buys the Moffat tunnel, don't they have to negotiate to run trains over UP's tracks? Short answer: yes. Longer answer: Not only that, but a purchaser would have to get STB authority to exclude UP or its tenant (BNSF) from operating through the tunnel (it would be considered a "discontinuance of service" which could only be done if authorized by STB). The way this would probably play out (if a voluntary agreement wasn't made) is that STB would end up setting the terms for continued use of the tunnel by UP and BNSF.
Murphy Siding If someone buys the Moffat tunnel, don't they have to negotiate to run trains over UP's tracks?
If someone buys the Moffat tunnel, don't they have to negotiate to run trains over UP's tracks?
Short answer: yes. Longer answer: Not only that, but a purchaser would have to get STB authority to exclude UP or its tenant (BNSF) from operating through the tunnel (it would be considered a "discontinuance of service" which could only be done if authorized by STB). The way this would probably play out (if a voluntary agreement wasn't made) is that STB would end up setting the terms for continued use of the tunnel by UP and BNSF.
Bruce Kelly Do a comparison of tunnel clearances on the Moffat Route vs. Tennessee Pass.
Do a comparison of tunnel clearances on the Moffat Route vs. Tennessee Pass.
In response to Mudchicken's note of 4/22, "infuriating the DRGW managers (including those who made the move to Omaha)" was not an issue. I was heavily involved in this abandonment. The senior SP/DRGW managers were all on board with a TP shutdown. They would have shut the line down themselves if the merger hadn't gone through, since their "central corridor" strategy had been a failure (one of their senior officials submitted a statement to this effect in the merger proceeding). The people who made the decision to keep the TP line in reserve were long time UP officials.
Actually, selling Moffat tunnel did come on the table about 15 years or so ago. The state agency contolling the tunnel (I forget what agency it was at the time, but it probably was the Moffat Tunnel Commission) put both the water and the rail tunnel out for bid (there are two separate but parallel Moffat tunnels - the water tunnel was built first and then used to build the rail tunnel). Denver or one of the govenment entities associated with it purchased the water tunnel. UP bid on the rail tunnel, but the agency controlling it thought the bid was inadequate.
I don't recall that anyone else submitted a serious bid on the rail tunnel, but it was a long time ago, so I may be overlooking something now. In any event, the rail tunnel wasn't sold. I think that an issue for anyone but UP bidding for the tunnel at the time was that any purchase would have been subject to the UP lease, and the lease income may not have been very attractive. That's because, when the tunnel was built, the lease payments were structured so that they were high early in the lease (to return the investment the state had made), but low later in the lease. By the time the sale effort was undertaken, the lease payments were "low".
This is all from my memory, so I could have misstated something (these days, I can't remember where I left my socks the night before). But all of the details should be public somewhere, since a governmental entity was involved. Also, I recall that the effort was widely reported in the press at the time. One thing I definitely remember from the press was a report of an interview with a governmental official involved in the sale. He was asked why the state was trying to sell the tunnel. His answer was that they were trying to tap the buyers that missed out on the Brooklyn Bridge.
CSSHEGEWISCHI would propose that the issue of the lease of the Mofffat Tunnel is a red herring. Nobody besides UP is in a position to make a serious bid on renewing the lease and the government entity which owns the tunnel doesn't want to be stuck with an otherwise worthless asset.
Whoever 'owns' the tunnel is likely going to be like Glenn Campbell with his 2-10-4, convinced that the route is worth 'billyunz and billyunz' of dollars and they as owners can hold out for 'their' price, whereas UP as we know has a take-it-or-leave-it' attitude toward actually needing the tunnel to make a profit... but doesn't want a competitor to use the route to cause trouble, even in theory. The most interesting manifestation of this would come if actually selling the tunnel and its route comes on the table...
CSSHEGEWISCH I would propose that the issue of the lease of the Mofffat Tunnel is a red herring. Nobody besides UP is in a position to make a serious bid on renewing the lease and the government entity which owns the tunnel doesn't want to be stuck with an otherwise worthless asset.
I would propose that the issue of the lease of the Mofffat Tunnel is a red herring. Nobody besides UP is in a position to make a serious bid on renewing the lease and the government entity which owns the tunnel doesn't want to be stuck with an otherwise worthless asset.
Falcon48 With respect to the question of "what odds" I give to a Tennessee Pass reactivation, ask me that question after we find out whether UP is able to negotiate an acceptable extension of its lease of the Moffat Tunnel (which expires in 2025) or a purchase of the facility.
With respect to the question of "what odds" I give to a Tennessee Pass reactivation, ask me that question after we find out whether UP is able to negotiate an acceptable extension of its lease of the Moffat Tunnel (which expires in 2025) or a purchase of the facility.
Agreed. (But UP gave up on TP, something that infuriated the D&RGW managers (including those who made the move to Omaha)...and then had to walk it back)
Should have better stated where I was coming from.
In response to Mudchicken, the Tennessee Pass line was never abandoned. UP applied for abandonment of the line in the UPSP merger. In its 1996 decision approving the merger, STB denied abandonment but approved "discontinuance" of service, which permitted the line to be shut down. STB's reason for this was to see if overhead traffic could be sucessfully rerouted from the line before permitting full abandonment. Then came UP's 1997 service crisis. As a result of this, UP removed the line from "Category 1" of its system diagram map in early 1998, advising the Board it was no longer a candidate for abandonment. But service over the line remained "discontinued" as permitted by STB's earlier decision. Except for the 1998 sale of the Canon City-Parkdale segment to RGX (a partership of Rock & Rail and the Canon City & Royal Gorge tourist road), that's the way it's been ever since.
Why? - they already gave up on Pueblo-Denver, Pueblo- NA Junction and that traffic base....Tennessee Pass will survive, but not anything like it was. (At one point it WAS abandondoned, then UP quickly reversed course on that)
Shrike Arghast(special shoutout to the Milwaukee's Pacific Extension and Homestake Pass, though)
Milwaukee and it's various bankruptcy trustees made too many shortsighted decisions for the Pacific Extension ever to make it (for example: not wiping more of the Pacific Extension debt from the balance sheet in the first or second bankruptcy).
Lets say that all the dumb decisions were made smart......there is still not enough traffic to support a fifth transcontinental railway between the population of the United States and Canada combined. If Milwaukee did survive it would have made the current four weaker financially.
I think you just answered the question as to why UP has held on to the TP line for so long. Now the question becomes whether UP will want to hold on to either line come 2025, with the evaporation of traffic on the lines in recent years.
I confess my take is existential as long as the popcorn holds out. It's not my money, and I'd like to see profitable service (and the improvements that go with it) made. On the other hand I don't like to see crooks and financiers screw things up just so they can 'succeed' enhancing their wealth at the line's distress.
(And I hold special disdain for the actual and would-be Riffins of this world, no matter how much they have or how much OPM they have to squander...)
Overmod,
Of course you're right. They wouldn't tell me. I never got a straight answer out of the U.P. concerning the West Phoenix line either.
My only point is they are pursuing this for a reason and that makes it a lot more likely to happen than if no one was pursuing it. Then that fact taken with the reality that no one has as of yet made much of an effort to dismantle the line, then I think something is likely to happen.
There isn't much of a point arguing about the unknown. We'll just have to wait and see and watch future developments. It could very easily all come to nothing but still, I think there's a good chance.
Fred M CainBut the very fact that no effort has been made to pull the rails and dismantle the line might tell us something.
Mudchicken could probably address this better than anybody, but I always thought this line was preserved as a possible detour route, in case the current mainline is disrupted through landslides or washouts.
Several years ago I was east bound on I-70 where a bridge in fact washed out. And they re-routed traffic via US 24...right through the area we now discuss. It's a convenient detour.
Fred M CainAnd now that someone is actively pursuing this, they must have their reasons. One possibility: One of us could try and contact them and ask them why. I could speculate as to why but I really don't know so I'm gonna hold off.
Better yet, explain to me how you intend to get them to do that, and then verify you'll verify you're not being lied to or deflected from the issues of importance to them...
On the other hand, nothing would be really lost if you tried... and who knows? perhaps they would tell you in detail what they intend. I might have been around New York real-estate people in general too long.
I may be overly optimistic but I think there's a good chance. 50%? 75%? 90%? I have no clue. But the very fact that no effort has been made to pull the rails and dismantle the line might tell us something.
And now that someone is actively pursuing this, they must have their reasons. One possibility: One of us could try and contact them and ask them why. I could speculate as to why but I really don't know so I'm gonna hold off.
Concerning the rebuilding of the Milwaukee's line to the Pacific Northwest, there is little or no hope there 'cause the rails are gone as well as some of the viaducts. But with Tennesse Pass and the West Phoenix line, those are real possibilities there.
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