Cedar Rapids, Iowa

[SD70Dude]

jeffhergert

PS. We have trains that can sail across our historic crew districts in 4 to 6 hours.  Then there are others, usually the ones that have to work intermediate yard(s) that have to be recrewed.  Usually because more than one train that needs to work an intermediate yard shows up at the same time.  One has to wait while the other(s) work.  No matter what they try to do to stagger arrival time of the workers, it never seems to work.  They all still seem to show up at the same time.  

Jeff 

Same thing out here!

[greyhounds]

jeffhergert

Never mind trying to get a single person crew for right now.  You'll have to get agreement for an interdivisional run from Cedar Rapids to the Chicago area.  Clinton is the dividing line for the two seniority districts.  Iowa crews can't go east of Route 84 on the Illinois side.  Illinois crews can't go west of a place called "Hawkeye" about MP 5.  (Anytime I've ran east I don't remember an Illinois crew going beyond Central Steel crossing, the first crossing west of the Camanche control point.)

This is a really important point that Jeff brought up.

 

These are the 2nd and 3rd very artificial barriers to railroad competitiveness vis a vis trucking cited here.  The 1^st such artificial barrier was brought up by “backshop” when he tried to use the interchange at Chicago to claim this was a “Short Haul” intermodal move.  It’s no such thing.

 

There is a contractual barrier that prevents a train crew from taking a train from Cedar Rapids to Chicago interchange.  That barrier is contrived and in no way represents a needed protection for the workers.  But it’s very real.  Truckers face no such barrier, and they’re very competitive for the freight.  A driver will just hook to his/her load and go.  This Mississippi River crossing will not be a factor for a truck driver.  For the railroad it’s a barrier, a very artificial barrier.

 

Now I’ll have to protect myself by denying that I’m “Anti-Union.”  I’m not.  But the competitive environment is not, and cannot be, defined by a labor contract.  The workers should be well paid, work in a safe and reasonable situation, have good benefits, good retirement, etc.  A union can, and often does, ensure that.  But setting up unneeded barriers to efficiency helps neither the workers nor the company.  It only diverts business to non-union competitors, in this case, the truckers.   Let the crews run through from Cedar Rapids to the Chicago interchange.  They’ll make good money doing so and the railroad will also make good money doing so. 

 

The other artificial barrier is the resistance to one person crews.  One person can well handle these proposed trains safely and efficiently.  Anything else simply diminishes rail competitiveness.  And, again, it diverts business to non-union competitors, the truckers.

 

 

 

 

[greyhounds]

n012944

I think this kind of thing is what NWOH is built for.  Lets take Greyhound's 40 car double stack train coming off of the UP or CN in Chicago.  The train only changes crews there, none of the power swap BS, and goes to NWOH.  There it is broken up, trains depart from there to the east coast, southeast, Canada, even Detroit.  A perfect setup to make this concept work.  

Using NWOH instead of Chicago is probably a good idea.

But, but, but....

I want those large volume red meat loads going to Florida, Georgia and the Carolinas.  Can we just set those out in Chicago?

[CMStPnP]

greyhounds

Ok, enough.  I’m tired of arguing with people who have never had anything to do with moving one pound of freight one mile in their life.

Yes but not always the case does "experience" equal the best method is in use or has been chosen or the person speaking knows their job.   I can cite a big example from my life experience in another area.

[Backshop]

CMStPnP

 

 

greyhounds

Ok, enough.  I’m tired of arguing with people who have never had anything to do with moving one pound of freight one mile in their life.

 

 

Yes but not always the case does "experience" equal the best method is in use or has been chosen or the person speaking knows their job.   I can cite a big example from my life experience in another area.

 

I agree.  I also think the OP has a condescending attitude.  Of course, most of the people here aren't in transportation management. What did he think?  Why did he start this thread then?  Was it so that he could flaunt his "superior" knowledge?

[greyhounds]

Backshop

I agree.  I also think the OP has a condescending attitude.  Of course, most of the people here aren't in transportation management. What did he think?  Why did he start this thread then?  Was it so that he could flaunt his "superior" knowledge?

I explained why I started the thread when I started the thread.  I said:

" Please know and accept that this is just a mental exercise involving something that interests me.  If you care to chime in, please feel free to do so.  It’s all about having something interesting to do while I’m on lockdown and waiting to be vaccinated.  Nothing more.  I’d love to go out for a good steak and baked potato, but that isn’t going to happen anytime soon.  So……"  

 

[Overmod]

greyhounds

Using NWOH instead of Chicago is probably a good idea.

Someone tell me exactly how many crew changes, special district arrangements, or potential additional requirements would be needed to take the presumably 40-well train from Cedar Rapids to the private-container section of the NWO facility.  Whether by way of "Chicago" or by a different specified route.

greyhounds

I want those large volume red meat loads going to Florida, Georgia and the Carolinas.  Can we just set those out in Chicago?

Presumably the train could be routed via Chicago with the additional dwell for the container offloads.  I would note that this could be very quickly and effectively done in the 'outbound' direction with gang sideloading (and the equivalent for TOFC whether using 'reinforced' trailers for sideloading or more ordinary units with underlift) but we are presuming stack mechanics until I hear differently.  The question then becomes the specific routes, and presumably trains or blocks, that will carry the concentrations of offloaded meat in Chicago to their prospective further distribution points.

What are the reasons why the points named in the far southeast couldn't be preferentially reached via the National Gateway or likely connections?  Can we negotiate reduction or elimination of 'misuse charges' if an assigned reefer container returns via a different route from the partially 'dedicated' arrangement it departed Cedar Rapids using?  Things like this tell me the experts know their current business too...  

[SD60MAC9500]

 

n012944

 

 

SD60MAC9500

 

 

To this day I still believe CSX's North Baltimore ICTF was built in the wrong location.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this kind of thing is what NWOH is built for.  Lets take Greyhound's 40 car double stack train coming off of the UP or CN in Chicago.  The train only changes crews there, none of the power swap BS, and goes to NWOH.  There it is broken up, trains depart from there to the east coast, southeast, Canada, even Detroit.  A perfect setup to make this concept work.  

 

You can run those stacks into an exisitng train. No ones running 80 boxes on a dedicated shooter from Chicago to NWOH.. You'll only get treatment like that from BNSF during peak season and your name must be UPS.. NWOH would be a better fit in the Chicago area combining volumes from both UP, BNSF, etc.. Building those trains and block swapping enroute as they do currently. No need to touch those boxes more than twice.. Regardless of how you feel about him. Hunter Harrison made the right call to change the dynamic of NWOH. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SD60MAC9500]

 

SD70Dude

Renegotiating contracts is useless if the new run cannot be completed with the HOS limitations. 

We have a similar sort of scenario out here, about 25 years ago CN negotiatied the ability to run trains across two steam-era crew districts with a single crew, this practice being commonly referred to as "extended run" or "double sub". 

But most of our trains still change crews at all the old steam-era locations across western Canada, and there are very few lines where all trains are operated with extended run crews.  Why?  Because you cannot reliably make it over the road in 12 hours.  Heck, it isn't exactly uncommon for single sub crews to run out of hours and get rescued before they have even gone 100 miles. 

 

I agree with this. BNSF just recently put back it's crew change at Ashfork on the Peavine line from Phoenix. Prior to that it was a 300 Mile district between there and Winslow, AZ. Crews rarely made the entire district. I back one man as well on some trains, but what will it matter if they constantly run into HOS? 

 

[MP173]

Regarding one man crews...how is that handled when a train must be inspected due to equipment failure or hot box?

Not against 1 man crew but that aspect has always puzzled me.

 

Ed

[jeffhergert]

MP173

Regarding one man crews...how is that handled when a train must be inspected due to equipment failure or hot box?

Not against 1 man crew but that aspect has always puzzled me.

 

Ed

 

For some things the engineer might be able to handle simple things, like a sticking brake or airhose. They'll probably need to change a few rules and practices, but they already do that.  Bigger things like a separation or knuckle failure, you'll have to wait for help to arrive.  Maybe minutes, probably hours.

That's why the late EEH was not for one person crews.

Jeff

[SALfan]

Thank you, Greyhounds, for puttiing up this very interesting and informative topic.

[greyhounds]

SALfan

Thank you, Greyhounds, for puttiing up this very interesting and informative topic.

You're welcome.

Next, I'm going to talk about chicken.  

[greyhounds]

OK, I know I said I was going to talk about chickens.  But I’ve been diverted.  This is about eggs. 

 

The USDA data says that in 2019 the US produced ~99,089,000,000 table eggs from chickens.  Table eggs are the eggs we eat as opposed to hatching eggs which produce more chickens.  Per Capita egg consumption in 2019 was 288.1.  Every US resident consumed, on average, 288.1 eggs.  That’s up from 242.3 eggs per person in 2010.

 

Guess which state is the leading egg producer.  If you guessed Iowa, you’re correct.  In 2019 Iowa produced ~16,840,000,000 eggs.  That’s 17% of US egg production.  Or, put another way, 1 out of 6 eggs produced in the US is produced in Iowa. 

 

The high population states such as California, Texas, Florida, New York, etc. don’t come close.  So, they’re bringing in eggs from Iowa and some other states.  (Indiana is #2 with 10% of US egg production.)

 

I want those Iowa eggs on the trains out of Cedar Rapids.  And no, don’t put them over a hump or have a switch crew kick ‘em.

 

The Iowa state motto should be: “Without us, you’d be hungry.”

 

 

 

[SD60MAC9500]

 

I concur with Jeff that the UP has no interest in touching this traffic, or any other C1 for that matter... As he mentioned before UP turned away cereal business that would have brought revenue to the bottom line. Though if what he mentioned about Vanguard is true maybe they will have a change of heart?.. Not holding my breath.. Greyhounds your proposal would be better suited to the Cedar Rapids & Iowa City, and/or the Iowa Interstate.. Travero is building a logisitcs park in Cedar Rapids which will be served by the CRANDIC. CRANDIC could build the blocks at this LP handing off to the IAIS. Or since IAIS has trackage rights into Cedar Rapids on the CRANDIC via South Amana. They could make this an all IAIS move. IAIS doesn't have the high speed overland route, but it would be a low cost service and consistent. Let CRANDIC build the trains at CRLP. IAIS can move them for block swapping at South Amana.

 

 

 

 

[tree68]

greyhounds

The high population states such as California, Texas, Florida, New York, etc. don’t come close.  So, they’re bringing in eggs from Iowa and some other states.  (Indiana is #2 with 10% of US egg production.)  

Remember that most of the population in NYS is in the city.  Out here in the sticks, our ratio of eggs produced to eggs consumed is much higher.  For that matter, I can get farm-fresh eggs from any of several local farmers.  No need to go to the store.

Of note with all of this should be the reason the East India spice trade ended.  Recall that one of the purposes for which clipper ships were built was for that trade.  

The invention of the refrigerated railroad car was the reason - it was now possible to deliver milk and butter from "out in the sticks" in consumable condition.  A major use for the spices was to cover the taste of the rancid butter...

[greyhounds]

tree68

Remember that most of the population in NYS is in the city.  Out here in the sticks, our ratio of eggs produced to eggs consumed is much higher.  For that matter, I can get farm-fresh eggs from any of several local farmers.  No need to go to the store.

Oh, for sure.  I grew up in a small central Illinois town.  We raised chickens for home slaughter but we bought our eggs from a local farmer.  Illinois passed a law against buying eggs directly from a farmer.  The law was ignored.

Such eggs do not show up in any government statistics.  And I doubt that many of those cash transactions show up on income tax returns.

 

[Murphy Siding]

n012944

 

 

SD60MAC9500

 

 

To this day I still believe CSX's North Baltimore ICTF was built in the wrong location.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this kind of thing is what NWOH is built for.  Lets take Greyhound's 40 car double stack train coming off of the UP or CN in Chicago.  The train only changes crews there, none of the power swap BS, and goes to NWOH.  There it is broken up, trains depart from there to the east coast, southeast, Canada, even Detroit.  A perfect setup to make this concept work.  

 

What is NWOH?

[Backshop]

I believe it stands for NorthWest OHio...in other words, North Baltimore.

[jeffhergert]

greyhounds

OK, I know I said I was going to talk about chickens.  But I’ve been diverted.  This is about eggs. 

 

 

So now we know the answer to that age old question of which came first.

The eggs come first.

Jeff

[tree68]

Backshop

I believe it stands for NorthWest OHio...in other words, North Baltimore.

That's correct.  The folks on the  Deshler webcam chat made the change because using "NB" for "North Baltimore" and for "northbound" got confusing.  And I believe that is the official CSX designation is NWO, so it didn't just get pulled out of the air.

.

[jeffhergert]

SD60MAC9500

 

I concur with Jeff that the UP has no interest in touching this traffic, or any other C1 for that matter... As he mentioned before UP turned away cereal business that would have brought revenue to the bottom line. Though if what he mentioned about Vanguard is true maybe they will have a change of heart?.. Not holding my breath.. Greyhounds your proposal would be better suited to the CRANDIC, and/or the Iowa Interstate.. Travero is building a logisitcs park in Cedar Rapids which will be served by the Cedar Rapids & Iowa City. CRANDIC could build the blocks at this LP handing off to the IAIR. Or since IAIR has trackage rights into Cedar Rapids on the CRANDIC via South Amana. They could make this an all IAIR move. IAIR doesn't have the high speed overland route, but it would be a low cost service and consistent. Let CRANDIC build the trains at CRLP. IAIR can move them for block swapping at South Amana.

 

 

 

 

The Iowa Interstate had a ramp at West Liberty IA, just east of Iowa City.  They closed it a few years ago.  They also closed their Newton IA ramp.  I forget the time frame.  I think Newton was after the Maytag factory was closed.  West Lib was probably about the same time frame.  

That being said, I agree that IAIS would likely be more receptive to Greyhounds' idea than UP.

Jeff

[CMStPnP]

Off topic but several of Dallas Northern Suburbs allow backyard chicken coups for the raising and consumption of fresh eggs, there is no limit on acerage and you can do so on a city lot.   I believe there is a limit on number of laying hens per residence though.   Never checked into myself, my suburb allows it but not a lot of people do it.

[greyhounds]

SD60MAC9500

I concur with Jeff that the UP has no interest in touching this traffic, or any other C1 for that matter... As he mentioned before UP turned away cereal business that would have brought revenue to the bottom line. Though if what he mentioned about Vanguard is true maybe they will have a change of heart?.. Not holding my breath..

Agree.

 

Some years ago, I was involved with a group consisting of railroad people of far greater stature than myself who took a good, at least in my mind, plan to the UP to haul Iowa/Nebraska meat. 

 

The UP’s response was pathetic to say the least.  Forget the Chicago interchange.  There’s a huge volume of such freight moving to the west coast.  Both for domestic consumption and export.  That’s long haul, high volume freight.  I’ve got California alone bringing in 172 truckloads of red meat per day 365 days per year.  California also requires 58 truckloads of eggs per day.  And I calculate they bring in 157 loads of chicken per day.  That’s a total of 387 long haul reefer truckloads.  Please know the chicken does not come from Iowa.  Chicken production in the US is centered in the southeast.  But Georgia to California is a UP market opportunity.  An empty reefer container in California is also an opportunity, not a problem.

 

The UP marketing guy wanted to get the meat into a unit train.  How dumb can you get?  This isn’t unit train business. It’s going from a concentrated origin, that’s true, but it’s going to diverse destinations and that doesn’t work with a unit train.  You can’t fix ignorance.

 

The UP marketing people don’t know their markets and they don’t understand how the railroad can fit in to market requirements.   The marketing folks should be the leading light for any company.  After all, the company must sell its service/product.  If it doesn’t know what service or product to offer for sale, it’s going to get in trouble. 

 

The UP is wandering in the wilderness.  And there’s no manna from heaven to be found.

 

If they started today it will take years to build a good marketing department.  I won’t live to see them do that.  I’m 70 with no pressing health issues.  But I’ll be dead and gone before the UP could possibly get its act together.

 

I tend to agree with railroad actions that other people throw a fit about.  I often see the business logic in such decisions, or at least I think I do.  But the Union Pacific, they don’t have a clue.

[BaltACD]

greyhounds

SD60MAC9500

I concur with Jeff that the UP has no interest in touching this traffic, or any other C1 for that matter... As he mentioned before UP turned away cereal business that would have brought revenue to the bottom line. Though if what he mentioned about Vanguard is true maybe they will have a change of heart?.. Not holding my breath..

Agree.

 

Some years ago, I was involved with a group consisting of railroad people of far greater stature than myself who took a good, at least in my mind, plan to the UP to haul Iowa/Nebraska meat. 

 

The UP’s response was pathetic to say the least.  Forget the Chicago interchange.  There’s a huge volume of such freight moving to the west coast.  Both for domestic consumption and export.  That’s long haul, high volume freight.  I’ve got California alone bringing in 172 truckloads of red meat per day 365 days per year.  California also requires 58 truckloads of eggs per day.  And I calculate they bring in 157 loads of chicken per day.  That’s a total of 387 long haul reefer truckloads.  Please know the chicken does not come from Iowa.  Chicken production in the US is centered in the southeast.  But Georgia to California is a UP market opportunity.  An empty reefer container in California is also an opportunity, not a problem.

 

The UP marketing guy wanted to get the meat into a unit train.  How dumb can you get?  This isn’t unit train business. It’s going from a concentrated origin, that’s true, but it’s going to diverse destinations and that doesn’t work with a unit train.  You can’t fix ignorance.

 

The UP marketing people don’t know their markets and they don’t understand how the railroad can fit in to market requirements.   The marketing folks should be the leading light for any company.  After all, the company must sell its service/product.  If it doesn’t know what service or product to offer for sale, it’s going to get in trouble. 

 

The UP is wandering in the wilderness.  And there’s no manna from heaven to be found.

 

If they started today it will take years to build a good marketing department.  I won’t live to see them do that.  I’m 70 with no pressing health issues.  But I’ll be dead and gone before the UP could possibly get its act together.

 

I tend to agree with railroad actions that other people throw a fit about.  I often see the business logic in such decisions, or at least I think I do.  But the Union Pacific, they don’t have a clue.

Feature that is not a UP blindspot - it is a PSR cardinal rule.

PSR is predicated upon trainloads, not carloads.  

PSR thought doesn't want to get involved in originating or terminating individual carloads.  Carloads require terminal handling of one form or another and PSR wants to eliminate all Terminal costs in their operating plan.  With all the hump yard closures it is manifestly evident that the PSR carriers want to distance themselves from carload freight.  They will 'suffer' their existing 'BIG' customers carload traffic but will not seek out any new carload traffic, no matter how much it brings to the bottom line.

[Overmod]

BaltACD

Feature that is not a UP blindspot - it is a PSR cardinal rule. PSR is predicated upon trainloads, not carloads.

Which is the whole reason for the formation of UP's little 'logistics' intrapreneuring whatever-it's-called that cancelled the lane into Rotterdam, and their relationship to Blume Global with EMP and UMAX, and the use of 'paper ramps' and the like.

Where they seem to have the 'problem' is in waiting for the traffic to come to their grand opportunity, rather than establishing it for different specific targets -- as greyhounds is doing -- and then actively soliciting for enough aggregate to start building blockloads to make trainloads.

They certainly need to expand into the areas concerned with effective point-to-multipoint logistics... but that is not particularly 'rocket science'.  I suspect greyhounds and STCO alone could explain it in enough detail to set about implementing properly.

[MP173]

Greyhound:

The key words are "a few years ago".  Back then the rails were packed with crude oil and coal.

Today, not so much crude nor coal.  

My guess is the UP would be more receptive in 2021 than they were a few years ago.

Probably needs to go to a Logistics Park somewhere in Ca.

 

Ed

[Backshop]

What percentage of domestic COFC/TOFC is reefers?  I don't see a whole lot.

[greyhounds]

MP173

The key words are "a few years ago".  Back then the rails were packed with crude oil and coal. Today, not so much crude nor coal.   My guess is the UP would be more receptive in 2021 than they were a few years ago. Probably needs to go to a Logistics Park somewhere in Ca.

I’d sure like it if you were right.  But I just don’t see that at the Union Pacific. 

 

They continue this insane focus on their operating ratio.  Having a low OR is good but it’s not the Alpha and Omega.  They also need to focus on net income and return on invested capital.  But they don’t.  It’s as if they can’t consider more than one number at a time. 

 

The UP is literally insisting that any freight it handles has a near 100% mark up.  (I’m using “Mark Up" to mean price less variable costs) That is not the way to maximize net income or return on invested capital. 

 

If the UP’s marketing was any good, which it isn’t, they’d be more than “Receptive” to opportunities.  They’d be leading the way in developing opportunities.  Leading the way in developing market opportunities is just not part of the UP’s corporate culture.  And they pay dearly for that.

 

As to going to “A” logistics park in California.  No.

 

California is a big state in population and in area.  So, there should be destinations in both northern and southern California.  Add in Sparks, NV (Reno).  Walmart distributes perishables for northern California from a Sparks DC.  Add in Seattle, Portland, and Las Vegas.  Tucson (Serving Phoenix) would be good.  Think hard about Salt Lake City.  Nearby Idaho has a whole lot of potatoes available for backhauls.

 

Don’t forget Mexico.  There are significant US pork exports to Mexico.  And Mexico sends significant volumes of avocados, tomatoes and limes back north.  There are many destinations for meat from the US Midwest and they can’t all be served by one train destination.

 

The freight and money are there.  The UP may know about it.  But they don’t have the mental ability to do anything about it.

 

Edit to add:  I've got the US pork export volume to Mexico in 2019 at 96 truckloads per day based on a 365 day year.  I'm figuring 44,500 pounds of pork per truckload.  The border states don't produce a lot of pork.  It comes mainly from the midwest.

[jeffhergert]

Supposedly the UP is hiring more marketing people.  I'm afraid though that it will be more of answering phone/e-mail inquiries instead of actually going out and beating the bushes.  Also will they continue the long haul only mentality? Hopefully I'm wrong.

Unit trains really are out.  While they want to run large trains, they are trying to move as much unit train business into the regular manifest trains as possible.  One of their mantra's now is it's about moving cars, not trains.  While some customers are still better served with unit trains, they aren't above moving manifest business cut into unit trains.  Especially on the unit train's empty leg. 

Even some intermodals are carrying blocks of manifest business.  I should note that blocks of auto racks and reefers have moved in intermodal trains.  By manifest I mean box car, hopper (covered or not), tank car, and gondola traffic.

Jeff