I'm watching carefully.
I too am anticipating this discussion.
This is going to be interesting as to how the rails can capture 45 loads of meat daily to the Northeast, 34 loads to the California/Nv/Az market and 23 loads to Florida from Iowa.
A couple of questions:
1. Is the meat processed into final products in Iowa? In other words is the meat from Iowa packaged? I seriously doubt if it is on the hook, as the meat arrived at my father's store back in 1970 (which he then cut into final products). Or does the semi processed meat move from Iowa to locations where it is further processed into final products?
2. For this to work, there must be a very active backhaul market developed. Are you suggesting that the rails handle this retail aspect of backhauls, or will this be up to the 3PL groups?Looking forward to this.
Ed
IBP (Iowa Beef Packers) has a huge plant in Dennison Iowa. It is served by rail as seen on the Google photograph.
Caldreamer
MP1731. Is the meat processed into final products in Iowa? In other words is the meat from Iowa packaged? I seriously doubt if it is on the hook, as the meat arrived at my father's store back in 1970 (which he then cut into final products). Or does the semi processed meat move from Iowa to locations where it is further processed into final products?
Some of the meat is made case ready in Iowa. i.e., you may buy a pound of bacon just as it was sliced and packaged in Iowa. Some of it goes out for further preparation at locations closer to the the retail sale point. Either way, it's freight out of Iowa. I don't know of any meat that still shipped on the hook.
MP173 2. For this to work, there must be a very active backhaul market developed. Are you suggesting that the rails handle this retail aspect of backhauls, or will this be up to the 3PL groups?
2. For this to work, there must be a very active backhaul market developed. Are you suggesting that the rails handle this retail aspect of backhauls, or will this be up to the 3PL groups?
Got to use 3PL. Otherwise we'll spend a decade or more developing backhauls.
caldreamerIBP (Iowa Beef Packers) has a huge plant in Dennison Iowa. It is served by rail as seen on the Google photograph.
OK, I'm not all knowing about this. So I am open to corrections.
But Tyson bought out IBP long ago. As far as I know Tyson has closed the Dennison facility. Farmland (owned by Smithfield) has a large pork facility in Dennison.
greyhoundsI don't know of any meat that still shipped on the hook.
I may not see this correctly -- but I think all the different options are equally 'grist for this mill' -- they can all be packed/encapsulated to ride together, and dunned, and even the packaged items would benefit from reasonable CA and temperature control, so in theory all the long-distance units could be common, or different types of unit 'blocked' for efficient handling. And they all fill up a train faster together than 'separately routed'...
greyhoundsGot to use 3PL. Otherwise we'll spend a decade or more developing backhauls.
Most meat nowadays is shipped in either cyrovac primal cuts for further cutting at the stores or fully cut into retail cuts for sale on the direct sale to consumers. On the production of deli meats it is shipped in 1 ton combo bins of whatever cut that manufactor requires. So if you buy a pork butt from the store that is in a cryovac pack that is how it left the packing plant. Same with any beef cuts like that. Ground meats in those tubes are packaged at the plants.
Thanks Cats.
So, the issue is not where the beef is consumed per se, it is where the next step is in the supply chain. We know that if the meat is going to a big retailer it is going to a distribution center for final mile delivery, probably on the retailer's own trailer to the store. Thus, the keys are...where is the beef process, and where is it shipped to for final mile.
My guess is that there is considerable LTL movements on the meat, probably more than anticipated....just a guess. I have a customer who is a refer LTL carrier in Chicago. Next time I am in front of them (who knows when that will be) I will engage in topic.
ed
greyhounds Those Cedar Rapids – Chicago trains, they operate with a one-person crew.
How do the special 53' containers with slimlines make it back to Chicago (to be shuttled back to Cedar Rapids) expeditiously to hold the overall cost of containers and service to a minimum? Are there alternate lanes for backhaul that would serve to get them back 'more profitably' with the necessary assurance?
What is the point where 'full loading' of the 53' length goes into on-road overload with reefer container plus underframe, vs. TOFC on properly constructed (heavier) van trailers (for the anticipated initial traffic)? Is there a point where there is actual loadout before cubeout for the 53' containers (unless we're assuming they will often or always be bulk-broken/cross-docked at the end-terminal "intermodal" facilities rather than promptly sent outbound from there as 'loaded' -- a case could be made for that)?
I like this discussion, but I see backhaul as being a huge issue. It would be interesting to know the backhaul situation on CSX and NS...how many of these JBH, Schneider, EMP, and other domestic containers are moving empty from the east coast? About the only thing the east coast is producing these days in quantity is trash.
Take a look at the daily Selkirk Columbus train Q635 someday and count the loaded gons of trash. Usually about 70 - 90 per day. Could trash be handled in these containers and then sanitized for food grade? I doubt it.
While containers and covered hoppers are hard to judge, I find that many of the symbol pairs seen through Deshler are loaded in one direction and empty in the other. That includes steel, taconite, coal, coke, autos, oil, ethanol, potash, and grain.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Just double checked my self. The Google maps picture of the IBP (Tyson Foods) plant in Dennison, Iowa shows automobiles accross Lincoln Way, rail cars and trucks on different sides of the plant. It looks like it is still an active plant.
What would be loaded west from east coast cities on the road reefers today? The reefers and tractors are getting back to Iowa at some cost now somehow.
The Tyson plant in Denison no longer slaughters or processes meat. They still do rendering for other Tyson operations. The old operations office building across the street is now a church.
Jeff
My husband used to haul processed meat like bacon from OH to CA southern produce like peanuts Florida produce frozen foods from plants out east back towards the Midwest. Cool Whip is made in upstate NY along with Yoplait plus whatever they can find to get back to the midwest. Imported produce and dairy goods from overseas is a huge market that OTR drivers haul back from airports to the Midwest. That and Specialty brewed beers are huge backhauls.
Before I hired out on the railroad, I worked for 3 1/2 years for IBP at Perry, IA. It was a two shift operation. First shift did Nippon export. They bought the hogs, directed how the cuts would be made. This went out in ocean boxes.
Second shift did IBP hogs. At the time, IBP did not have a line of case ready meats. You couldn't buy an IBP labeled product in a grocery store at that time. It all went out for further processing. IBP did have some processing for commercial use, like pizza toppings, etc, but that was done at IBP plants set up to do that. I left before Tyson took over, but IBP was trying to develope a line of meats to be sold in stores with the IBP name.
The Perry plant shipped out via railroad reefers frozen meat. This was done through a subsidiary company in a wing of the plant, called the "freezer" by workers.
Truck load IBP product went out in full truck loads to customers. There were some partial truck loads that would pick up at another IBP plant, or Perry might be the second or possibly third pick up stop. The loads might also at times go to multiple stops for a receiving company. Loads could be either boxes of various sized depending on cut or the big "combo" boxes. I recall pork bellies, among other cuts, usually were in those large combo boxes. (I remember Nestles being a receiver. All I could think of was that they'ld be coming out with a line of chocolate covered port.)
I worked the kill floor for the first six months, then went over to load out doing inventory. I was also trained to load trucks and bill them out. I worked 3rd shift, which usually started shortly before 2nd was done. The rest of 3rd was like greyhounds said, the plant got a thorough cleaning.
One time once everyone else in loadout had left, a truck (actually a container of export meat) came back. It had been picked up out of the drop yard, not directly out of the dock. So when the driver went and weighed it at a local scale, he was overweight on his back axles. He had done all the axle adjustments possible, but still needed about 1500 lbs moved forward. So I moved it forward in increments of 5 and 10 lbs boxes. Once we thought enough had been moved, he went to the scale. He came back twice, needing more moved. Finally, the third time was it, he didn't come back.
I'd heard Nippon was a stickler for neat and tidy placement of the boxes. I can tell you that by that last time, those boxes weren't in a neat and tidy arrangement. Someone probably had a heart attack when they opened those container doors.
This is an educational discussion.
This is one of the reasons I back, and look forward to when East meets West. The Mississippi is an old barrier that needs to fall. I imagine inefficiencies in interline movement hinders markets from being developed to their full potential. Iowa would benefit from such a final round of mergers. Some significant freight lanes lie in the Midwest corridor. When it comes to backhaul it wouldn't be much a problem to fill the Westbound boxes with import traffic. Especially now that the East Coast has become a major player in ocean trade.
greyhounds The Chicago Hub exists. We’ve got to use it to an advantage, not as a barrier or a problem. The food from Iowa is going to various east coast population centers from Maine to Florida. Some of it even goes to Canada. The containers need to be sorted for destination somewhere. Chicago is the perfect place to do the sorting. Chicago currently originates expedited intermodal trains to several east coast destinations. Adding Iowa food containers to those existing trains will result in low marginal costs. But it will result in high marginal revenue. Go for it. (If I were doing this for any reason other than fun, I could buy information as to the current truck freight rates. Last time I looked they were damn high.) To get to those east coast trains we’re going to
The Chicago Hub exists. We’ve got to use it to an advantage, not as a barrier or a problem. The food from Iowa is going to various east coast population centers from Maine to Florida. Some of it even goes to Canada. The containers need to be sorted for destination somewhere. Chicago is the perfect place to do the sorting. Chicago currently originates expedited intermodal trains to several east coast destinations. Adding Iowa food containers to those existing trains will result in low marginal costs. But it will result in high marginal revenue. Go for it. (If I were doing this for any reason other than fun, I could buy information as to the current truck freight rates. Last time I looked they were damn high.) To get to those east coast trains we’re going to
To this day I still believe CSX's North Baltimore ICTF was built in the wrong location.
greyhounds Florida itself needs to bring in 145 loads per day, 365 days per year to meet its meat demand.
Did you take into account the beef produced in Florida, which is one of the largest beef-producing states east of the Mississippi River? I don't know how the industry is structured here, so I can't say where the cattle are "fed out", but it's easier to haul feed than live animals. That makes me suspect the cattle go to feedlots somewhere in-state and are butchered in-state, but I don't know that to be true.
SALfanDid you take into account the beef produced in Florida, which is one of the largest beef-producing states east of the Mississippi River? I don't know how the industry is structured here, so I can't say where the cattle are "fed out", but it's easier to haul feed than live animals. That makes me suspect the cattle go to feedlots somewhere in-state and are butchered in-state, but I don't know that to be true.
Well, below is what I'm going from. The USDA data show Florida producing 36.1 million pounds of red meat in 2019. I've got the Florida population at 21,477,737. So that means Florida produced 1.68 pounds of red meat per resident. The US per capita annual consumption of red meat was 111.2 pounds in 2019. So I'll stick with the concept that Florida has to bring in a whole lot of red meat.
You're more than welcome to check and question my numbers. I can make a mistake. But in this case I got it right.
Publication | Livestock Slaughter Annual Summary | ID: r207tp32d | USDA Economics, Statistics and Market Information System (cornell.edu)
Just as information, how Tyson packages to its customers. We don't buy meat/poultry from Tyson, we buy it from a grocer. The grocer buys from Tyson. The grocer is Tyson's customer.
Innovation - Tyson Fresh Meats
Following with great interest (I live here!).
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
What we do not know is how does the meat flow to the customer.
I have two customers that I can think of off the top of my head which are distributors to grocery industry. One is meat the other is a wide range.
The meat distributor receives refer trailers and then redistributes the meat to either smaller retail operators (regional groceries), restaurants, or perhaps even to the big retailers.
The general reseller (their term) purchases product (either full or partial truckload) and then distributes...both refer and dry freight.
My guess is that the current distribution supply chain is fairly efficient and does not incorporate full truckloads of meat from Iowa to each state. My guess (only a guess) is there are partial truckload (volume LTL) on many of these shipments.
Perhaps we will learn more from this discussion.
Thanks Greyhound for your passion on moving meat from Iowa!
We seem to be thinking that most meat that people consume goes straight from processing to end market with no stops in between. Knowing the shape most Americans are in, I suspect that a lot of the meat is consumed when eating fast food, which may have one or two processing or storage locations enroute.
BackshopWe seem to be thinking that most meat that people consume goes straight from processing to end market with no stops in between. Knowing the shape most Americans are in, I suspect that a lot of the meat is consumed when eating fast food, which may have one or two processing or storage locations enroute.
I don't think that at all. But one thing is for certain, meat produced in Iowa and consumed in Boston needs to be transported to Boston. Very, very little of the meat goes directly from a slaughter facility to a retail store.
Why would this matter?
greyhounds Backshop We seem to be thinking that most meat that people consume goes straight from processing to end market with no stops in between. Knowing the shape most Americans are in, I suspect that a lot of the meat is consumed when eating fast food, which may have one or two processing or storage locations enroute. I don't think that at all. But one thing is for certain, meat produced in Iowa and consumed in Boston needs to be transported to Boston. Very, very little of the meat goes directly from a slaughter facility to a retail store. Why would this matter?
Backshop We seem to be thinking that most meat that people consume goes straight from processing to end market with no stops in between. Knowing the shape most Americans are in, I suspect that a lot of the meat is consumed when eating fast food, which may have one or two processing or storage locations enroute.
For example--it could get slaughtered in Iowa, turned into patties in Ohio and distributed from a warehouse in New York.
Greyhound:Backshop brings up a very valid point. The meat going to food service companies such as Sysco, Gordon, and others who serve the restaurants (and particularly the big chains...McDonalds is delivered by Martin Brower) will take a much different path than that going to Wegmans, Walmart, Kroger, etc. Much different paths.
We dont know how that moves, my guess it is a bit more complex.
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