From the CN/CP Article:
Last month TCI Fund Management — which is CP’s largest investor and the fifth-largest investor in CN — submitted climate-related shareholder proposals to both railroads. The TCI proposal would require the railroads to present climate action plans at their annual shareholder meetings in 2021 and allow investors to have an advisory vote on those plans annually.
TCI also is a major Union Pacific investor, and has made the same shareholder proposals at the largest U.S. railroad. The London-based firm has vowed to vote against boards of directors that do not publicly disclose their emissions and that lack a “credible plan” for reducing them.
TCI has encouraged all three railroads to “accelerate all viable biofuel, electrification, hydrogen fuel cell technologies and other de-carbonisation opportunities.”
Image and public relations are also important and may contribute to stock values.
charlie hebdo The economics are important but these days going green may be an even more important factor.
The economics are important but these days going green may be an even more important factor.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
charlie hebdoThe economics are importamt but these days going green may be an even more important factor.
Is bankruptcy a different process for 'green' companies?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The economics are importamt but these days going green may be an even more important factor.
Part of the reason for making the battery design modular is the expectation that effective cell lifetime may be short in practice.
It is not difficult to analyze and track battery 'capacity' vs. number if charging cycles, and to flag when either cells or strings have reached some point of degraded performance. I suspect a strict adherence to staying in the 20 to 80 charge-discharge limits will enhance lifetime for newer chemistries, although I do not know the most 'cost-effective' range counterparts for the newest Li-ion high-energy-density cells; I have maintained since the practical development of supercaps that they have a place as 'charge buffers' integrated with chemical-battery architecture in heavy railroad-traction applications; it does remain to be seen if they continue to show a relatively large effective number of charge/discharge cycles without deterioration or damage in this service.
The important difference between thus and an automotive battery is the packaging. Automobile packs are designed to fit in minimum space, not to be readily rebuildable to keep them in service. I think there is little reason (at present) to design large locomotive battery capacity the same way.
Now there are a couple of proposed designs that do use automotive units -- both new and 'used' -- for integration to hold down cost in some way. I am not sanguine about how this will hold up long-term, or if the economics save enough on the front end to justify costs on the back end, or if one department benefits at another's expense in a given corporate structure ... or if it's easier to buffalo twentysomething analysts into uprating your stock for trying zero-carbon solutions than to convince them that burgeoning costs later shouldn't be reason to downrate...
BaltACD While I have little doubt that battery technology can have its power levels developed to be comparable to existing D-E technoloty - my question goes to the longevity of the battery packs. D-E technology is getting 10+ years between major rebuilds; will batteries have similar or longer lives?
While I have little doubt that battery technology can have its power levels developed to be comparable to existing D-E technoloty - my question goes to the longevity of the battery packs. D-E technology is getting 10+ years between major rebuilds; will batteries have similar or longer lives?
Very reasonable questions. Tesla is supposedly working on a battery pack good for a million miles - guessing 2,000 - 3,000 charges. Assuming a daily recharge, the 3,000 charge lifetime works out to close to 10 years. Might get longer with partial discharge/recharge cycles. Anyway, that's what's claimed, what happens with real batteries may be a different story.
MidlandMikeThe context of my original entry (from which you excerpted) was that like diesel engine technology which was scaled up for rail use, battery technology also could be scaled up to rail use including mainline engines.
While I know it is apples and oranges - the longest life I have ever gotten in a automotive battery has been 7 years - and that was the lone exception as most only lasted 3 to 4 years.
Early Diesels were pretty sizeable for the power they produced.
From there, however, I would agree that your analogy is likely very accurate.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
MidlandMike .....The context of my original entry (from which you excerpted) was that like diesel engine technology which was scaled up for rail use, battery technology also could be scaled up to rail use including mainline engines.
.....The context of my original entry (from which you excerpted) was that like diesel engine technology which was scaled up for rail use, battery technology also could be scaled up to rail use including mainline engines.
charlie hebdo Backshop charlie hebdo Change is hard for many to accept. Backshop is probably correct that it is harder for the elderly but it is not limited to that crowd. As in earlier days, they will rationalize many obstacles to progress and harken back to mythical golden eras. However, some of us see change as needed and inevitable. I think some may have misunderstood my post. I know all about change and progress. It's just that rrttrraaffiicc keeps posting his "stuff" with a "ha-ha, your train world is going to collapse" attitude but his version of change will be so long to arrive that we won't be around to see it. There will be incremental changes, but not the wholesale ones he trumpets. I tend to agree but for some to ridicule the huge number of potential and substantial changes occurring strikes me as desperation.
Backshop charlie hebdo Change is hard for many to accept. Backshop is probably correct that it is harder for the elderly but it is not limited to that crowd. As in earlier days, they will rationalize many obstacles to progress and harken back to mythical golden eras. However, some of us see change as needed and inevitable. I think some may have misunderstood my post. I know all about change and progress. It's just that rrttrraaffiicc keeps posting his "stuff" with a "ha-ha, your train world is going to collapse" attitude but his version of change will be so long to arrive that we won't be around to see it. There will be incremental changes, but not the wholesale ones he trumpets.
charlie hebdo Change is hard for many to accept. Backshop is probably correct that it is harder for the elderly but it is not limited to that crowd. As in earlier days, they will rationalize many obstacles to progress and harken back to mythical golden eras. However, some of us see change as needed and inevitable.
Change is hard for many to accept. Backshop is probably correct that it is harder for the elderly but it is not limited to that crowd. As in earlier days, they will rationalize many obstacles to progress and harken back to mythical golden eras. However, some of us see change as needed and inevitable.
I think some may have misunderstood my post. I know all about change and progress. It's just that rrttrraaffiicc keeps posting his "stuff" with a "ha-ha, your train world is going to collapse" attitude but his version of change will be so long to arrive that we won't be around to see it. There will be incremental changes, but not the wholesale ones he trumpets.
I tend to agree but for some to ridicule the huge number of potential and substantial changes occurring strikes me as desperation.
Overmod MidlandMike Rail would convert to the new technology as fast as they left steam by the wayside. The problem is that there are several respects where rail does not scale well to preserve marginal 'fuel savings'. In particular this relates to the issue of tare weight -- no true lightweight train has really succeeded, including the light four-wheel TOFC/COFC underframes or HPIT. There are a number of reasonably practical Class 8 size trucks that are said to get get upward of 12-14mpg -- a good battery-electric "equivalent cost per kWh" probably better as long as people believe enough in the electricity fairy. At those levels the tare weight necessary to eliminate things like stringlining becomes a factor. There is relatively less concern with longer doubles or potentially Australian-style road trains should those become "technologically enabled" by evolving work in autonomous assistance and then legalized in some sectors. While technically the friction between wheel and rail is still lower, other factors may render this less important to shippers -- such as longer railborne distance or time or multiple runs to produce efficient last-mile delivery. I don't see very many markets where 'boutique' delivery of typical loose-car rail vehicles will be price-competitive with last-mile intermodal trucking, whether the 'switcher' can be made autonomous or not. And I worry that to the extent it can be made to be cost-competitive, it will become less safe to those exposed to it.
MidlandMike Rail would convert to the new technology as fast as they left steam by the wayside.
The problem is that there are several respects where rail does not scale well to preserve marginal 'fuel savings'. In particular this relates to the issue of tare weight -- no true lightweight train has really succeeded, including the light four-wheel TOFC/COFC underframes or HPIT. There are a number of reasonably practical Class 8 size trucks that are said to get get upward of 12-14mpg -- a good battery-electric "equivalent cost per kWh" probably better as long as people believe enough in the electricity fairy. At those levels the tare weight necessary to eliminate things like stringlining becomes a factor. There is relatively less concern with longer doubles or potentially Australian-style road trains should those become "technologically enabled" by evolving work in autonomous assistance and then legalized in some sectors. While technically the friction between wheel and rail is still lower, other factors may render this less important to shippers -- such as longer railborne distance or time or multiple runs to produce efficient last-mile delivery.
I don't see very many markets where 'boutique' delivery of typical loose-car rail vehicles will be price-competitive with last-mile intermodal trucking, whether the 'switcher' can be made autonomous or not. And I worry that to the extent it can be made to be cost-competitive, it will become less safe to those exposed to it.
The context of my original entry (from which you excerpted) was that like diesel engine technology which was scaled up for rail use, battery technology also could be scaled up to rail use including mainline engines.
The world evolves over time - it is only afterwards that a particular point in time can be affixed to any real change - with one exception - the date of dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima definately marked the start of the 'atomic age'.
charlie hebdo Hopefully we can save/restore/preserve examples of good or historic architecture.
Hopefully we can save/restore/preserve examples of good or historic architecture.
Why? They're just buildings, and most of them are ugly as well. [/sarcasm]
BackshopThere will be incremental changes, but not the wholesale ones he trumpets.
And of course the idea that intermodal railroads, or their business units involved with promoting intermodal, would ignore the benefits of the technology to them is ... well, to me it's ridiculous and I'll happily supply the ridicule. However, stranger things have happened: REA went down to the grave after having truly awesome name recognition and asset placement, and much of the current PSR disdain from small or irregular clientele might be institutionally carried over to last-mile service provision that might double as intermediate road haul.
BaltACD Backshop Seeing as this forum is an older crowd, I wonder if ttrraaffiicc realizes that we'll all be dead and gone before any of his pronouncements become widespread (if they ever do) and therefore don't really care? Nothing lasts forever. I had a over 51 year career with CSX and its predecessors. Virtually every location I EVER worked in those 51 years either no longer physically exist or if they do exist they no longer exist as CSX owned and/or operated property. The various towers and interlockings are gone. Of the various office building settings I worked, if the buildings still exist they no longer have CSX as a tenant. The exceptions are the CSX Building on Water Street in Jacksonville and the Dufford Operations Center also in Jacksonville. The only constant in the world is change.
Backshop Seeing as this forum is an older crowd, I wonder if ttrraaffiicc realizes that we'll all be dead and gone before any of his pronouncements become widespread (if they ever do) and therefore don't really care?
Nothing lasts forever.
I had a over 51 year career with CSX and its predecessors. Virtually every location I EVER worked in those 51 years either no longer physically exist or if they do exist they no longer exist as CSX owned and/or operated property.
The various towers and interlockings are gone. Of the various office building settings I worked, if the buildings still exist they no longer have CSX as a tenant. The exceptions are the CSX Building on Water Street in Jacksonville and the Dufford Operations Center also in Jacksonville.
The only constant in the world is change.
MidlandMikeRail would convert to the new technology as fast as they left steam by the wayside.
seppburgh2Interesting, where is all the electricity going to come from?
Why, just plug it into the wall!
There are a lot of people "out there" who have no idea where the things they use come from. Electricity comes out of a plug on the wall, their food comes from a supermarket, the list goes on.
The electricity fairy is alive and well.
BackshopSeeing as this forum is an older crowd, I wonder if ttrraaffiicc realizes that we'll all be dead and gone before any of his pronouncements become widespread (if they ever do) and therefore don't really care?
Seeing as this forum is an older crowd, I wonder if ttrraaffiicc realizes that we'll all be dead and gone before any of his pronouncements become widespread (if they ever do) and therefore don't really care?
Interesting, where is all the electricity going to come from? TMI in PA was shutdown, gone, so has a number of other nuke plants. Coal fire plants have several states pointing legislative guns to there heads, wind power is only available 1/3 of the time (other times the wind don't blow or blows too hard or fire is burning the turbin down), and I like to see how much output from solar plants there is on a cloudy moonless night, or when it snows.
I am still waiting for answers beside wind and solar. Maybe Tesla will come out with mega-watt batteries? Or waiting for the jump as predicted by Robert Heinlein with the invention of the Ship Stone? (Green Hills of Earth)
I understand Apple has been developing a new type of battery that may be a step forward environmentally. Bill Gates has backed the company involved financially. I think VW is involved, too.
I've wondered why the enviros haven't stumbled upon the environmental impact of tires and braking. A whole new source of handwringing.
I remember going on a tour of the TVA's Raccoon Mountain pumped storage facility near Chattanooga many years ago. Since power plants are most efficient when run continually, they use the excess capacity at night to pump water to the reservoir at the top of the mountain. Then, when they have peak demand during the day, they release the water into the turbines to produce power. I guess with all these electric vehicles charging at night, there goes the excess capacity...
While truck builders may have more money to do the R&D to make effficient trucks, they have more work to do to make rubber tired vehicles more efficient. I would guess that anything they develope in energy efficiency could be scaled up to rail. Rail would convert to the new technology as fast as the left steam by he wayside.
tree68 There is already much being made of the residual effects of wind and solar power. Landfills are seeing used wind components, and I recently saw a similar warning for solar components. This is not far removed from nuclear power, where the spent fuel must be carefully disposed of due to radioactivity that will persist for generations. As was mentioned, the building of many of the "green" power sources isn't green at all.
There is already much being made of the residual effects of wind and solar power. Landfills are seeing used wind components, and I recently saw a similar warning for solar components. This is not far removed from nuclear power, where the spent fuel must be carefully disposed of due to radioactivity that will persist for generations.
As was mentioned, the building of many of the "green" power sources isn't green at all.
Don't forget all the batteries that are aging out.
The full cost from manufacturing to recycling needs to be looked at as well.
Making new Aluminium takes a lot of energy.
tree68Don't forget - electricity still costs money! One way or another, the power companies will get their bite. And considering that recharging a vehicle will be a demand issue (especially larger vehicles), the power suppliers will charge demand prices. I'd be interested to know how much it will cost for a fill-up on one of those electric self driving trucks...
One way or another, the power companies will get their bite. And considering that recharging a vehicle will be a demand issue (especially larger vehicles), the power suppliers will charge demand prices.
I'd be interested to know how much it will cost for a fill-up on one of those electric self driving trucks...
I have no fear that the 'electrical fill up' will cost very nearly +/- the present cost of hydrocarbon based fuels. The economy does not run on free lunches.
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