zugmannI'm done discussing anything with you.
OvermodWhat he doesn't 'get to do' rhetorically is criticize my opinion just because he disagrees with it, without indicating any facts or reasons to do so. (Even so, he has a constitutional right to do that, as a few people are finding out on RyPN in the past few hours ... it just doesn't advance anything in any meaningful sense except to score troll points.)
Don't involve me with that dumpster fire that is RYPN lately.
I already conceded to you. Don't bother bringing up my name. I'm done discussing anythign with you. Fair enough? Well, besides this message that is discussing something with you - but you get the point.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BaltACDEveryone has the right to criticize you and/or anyone else for whatever purpose they desire to spout.
What he doesn't 'get to do' rhetorically is criticize my opinion just because he disagrees with it, without indicating any facts or reasons to do so. (Even so, he has a constitutional right to do that, as a few people are finding out on RyPN in the past few hours ... it just doesn't advance anything in any meaningful sense except to score troll points.)
Not that it matters, really, on an Internet forum.
Overmod zugmann Overmod In my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it. Cute, especially since you have not a shred of an idea what my experience with FRA is
zugmann
Overmod In my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it.
Everyone has the right to criticize you and/or anyone else for whatever purpose they desire to spout. This is a internet forum.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Whatever makes you feel better. All yours... have at it. I'm not getting involved with your stuff anymore. You win.
zugmann I'm not getting involved in a Overmod peeing match today.
You knwo what? Screw it. I'm not getting involved in a Overmod peeing match today. The thread is yours.
zugmann Overmod In my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it.
OvermodIn my experience FRA is a bureaucracy, and it doesn't really matter that much who's at the 'top' of it.
Deleted. Not worth it.
charlie hebdoThat shouldn't come as a surprise these past four years.
Whether or not the FRA and AAR are somehow nearly incestuously involved is another matter. They certainly did not, and to my knowledge never have, seen particularly eye to eye on matters of safety enforcement ... which is technically the only major 'remit' the FRA has in the game. If you're going to find evidence of some kind of organized collusion (politically-steered or otherwise) I think you're going to have to go into detail with personal liaison between FRA and AAR staff, and build back from there.
Far more troublesome, to me, are political appointees with actual day-to-day responsibility, especially in making what they consider 'policy'. This for example was what Bella did as a NTSB commissioner: everything had some 'Carthago delenda est' spin about how positive train control would have made it better, regardless of any technical merit whatsoever to the claim. I won't say I'd prefer unenlightened greed to doctrinaire Procrustean politicking ... perhaps better to say I loathe them both and would go to great lengths to see them eliminated as a factor in either agency action or decision-making.
I'm interested to see where a Biden administration goes with FRA, and who they find to set various priorities. particularly if substantial Federal money gets allocated to railroad development. The Christian-Scientist-with-appendicitis problem I currently have is that I can't imagine much positive ever coming out of a Department of Transportation headed by Rahm Emanuel ... unless someone knows about distinctive competence in railroad operations I've never seen a shred of practical evidence of.
jeffhergert adkrr64 I think what Larry refers to is when someone with no experience in railroads is placed in charge of an agency like the FRA. People should have at least some expertise/ experience in the industry they are charged with regulating. Many in the ranks think the FRA is currently just a lap dog for the carriers. That FRA stands for Friend of Railroad Administrations. Mainly because they (FRA) have been quick to hand out railroad requested waivers to the carriers during crises (local and national) the last few years while declining or ignoring requests from the unions. Interestingly, I know of no waiver for hours of service for the pandemic. That's the first one I would've expected the carriers' to have requested. Jeff
adkrr64 I think what Larry refers to is when someone with no experience in railroads is placed in charge of an agency like the FRA. People should have at least some expertise/ experience in the industry they are charged with regulating.
I think what Larry refers to is when someone with no experience in railroads is placed in charge of an agency like the FRA. People should have at least some expertise/ experience in the industry they are charged with regulating.
Many in the ranks think the FRA is currently just a lap dog for the carriers. That FRA stands for Friend of Railroad Administrations. Mainly because they (FRA) have been quick to hand out railroad requested waivers to the carriers during crises (local and national) the last few years while declining or ignoring requests from the unions.
Interestingly, I know of no waiver for hours of service for the pandemic. That's the first one I would've expected the carriers' to have requested.
Jeff
That shouldn't come as a surprise these past four years.
To: Jeff H.: Here is an "Official" FMCSA link that may provide you, and anyone else who might be interested, in the H.O.S. currently in place[As of June 1,2020
"...HOS Final Rule On June 1, 2020, FMCSA revised four provisions of the hours of service regulations to provide greater flexibility for drivers without adversely affecting safety. Motor carriers are required to comply with the new HOS regulations starting on September 29, 2020.
Linked @ https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-of-service
It seems a little surprising that there was no mention of a 'change' rule for the Railroad Industry, as well. My guess. would be that the railroads maid no effert to lobby for such a change; as it would effect the same 'relief' sought by Trucking interests during the current Pandemic/COVID 19 ?
Overmod charlie hebdo But on the whole, I would prefer actual workers in the industry given oversight than corporate types... Remember the advice I gave Joe, about having Amtrak training overseen by a cadre of people with hard running experience on high-speed trains? It's that same thing. Just as you want to be taught by someone who's done it, you want to know that you're being disciplined by someone who understands what's important -- and that your railroad is being run by people who comprehend how to operate things right, not in ways that make the wrong kind of money from nominal ownership. Note that this is a very separate thing from those people Bill Sword so despised, recent grads from the Leland Stanford Junior University business program who think they know more than anyone around them, but often prove to know far less even than common sense through the ranks would have given. ... especially the MBA guys, who can manage finance today, a railroad tomorrow, because they are usually really working for Wall Street. This is largely an unfortunate consequence from the go-go Sixties, where conglomerates became all the rage and 'general management science' was increasingly assumed to be both an applicable and a teachable 'skill' (to be honest, it was qualified in school by noting that you 'hired experts and then listened to them' in all the areas you weren't truly qualified ... but very few people in my experience listened to that when killings were to be made or 'chainsaw Al' tactics essayed. The situation got worse in the era of Saul Steinberg and Reliance, and of course blew itself up in the Eighties ... there have been attempts since then to reward 'doing it right' but they usually get torpedoed sooner or later as the engineered recessions and market crashes progress year after year. The model I used for 'good conglomerate management' was the way the various Thermo companies did business, right up until the tech bottom at the beginning of the century. Everything those guys acquired, they ran well, and they then leveraged the assets and services of one good company to support the others. In the 'old days' Richard Branson understood when to combine his staffs, and when to keep them functionally separate, business by business. That hasn't been true for some years, and the collapse of his 'empire' can, I think, be attributed to that. Yes, much of general management can be "common", and yes, a great deal more of effective administration can be. But it will never replace knowledge about the industry concerned and the people who should be in it. (And sometimes the people who shouldn't... )
charlie hebdo But on the whole, I would prefer actual workers in the industry given oversight than corporate types...
Remember the advice I gave Joe, about having Amtrak training overseen by a cadre of people with hard running experience on high-speed trains? It's that same thing. Just as you want to be taught by someone who's done it, you want to know that you're being disciplined by someone who understands what's important -- and that your railroad is being run by people who comprehend how to operate things right, not in ways that make the wrong kind of money from nominal ownership.
Note that this is a very separate thing from those people Bill Sword so despised, recent grads from the Leland Stanford Junior University business program who think they know more than anyone around them, but often prove to know far less even than common sense through the ranks would have given.
... especially the MBA guys, who can manage finance today, a railroad tomorrow, because they are usually really working for Wall Street.
This is largely an unfortunate consequence from the go-go Sixties, where conglomerates became all the rage and 'general management science' was increasingly assumed to be both an applicable and a teachable 'skill' (to be honest, it was qualified in school by noting that you 'hired experts and then listened to them' in all the areas you weren't truly qualified ... but very few people in my experience listened to that when killings were to be made or 'chainsaw Al' tactics essayed. The situation got worse in the era of Saul Steinberg and Reliance, and of course blew itself up in the Eighties ... there have been attempts since then to reward 'doing it right' but they usually get torpedoed sooner or later as the engineered recessions and market crashes progress year after year.
The model I used for 'good conglomerate management' was the way the various Thermo companies did business, right up until the tech bottom at the beginning of the century. Everything those guys acquired, they ran well, and they then leveraged the assets and services of one good company to support the others.
In the 'old days' Richard Branson understood when to combine his staffs, and when to keep them functionally separate, business by business. That hasn't been true for some years, and the collapse of his 'empire' can, I think, be attributed to that.
Yes, much of general management can be "common", and yes, a great deal more of effective administration can be. But it will never replace knowledge about the industry concerned and the people who should be in it. (And sometimes the people who shouldn't... )
?????
charlie hebdoBut on the whole, I would prefer actual workers in the industry given oversight than corporate types...
Agreed. But on the whole, I would prefer actual workers in the industry given oversight than corporate types, especially the MBA guys, who can manage finance today, a railroad tomorrow, because they are usually really working for Wall Street.
charlie hebdoFor example, an EHH-type as head of FRA or DOT, as opposed to a former dispatcher or engineer.
Meanwhile, what about the opposite case, where someone with less than no relevant experience is put in charge -- Sarah Feinberg, for example? She seems to have done reasonably well, whereas Bella was just a disaster.
I think it depends on the character of the original, more than the nominal office to which they rose or exploited. And by extension to the morals or motivation of whoever political put them in that position.
My impression of EHH was not someone interested in scheming. Exploitive as a serial business 'leader', yes he was. Caring for employees, no he wasn't. But not in the 'business' of gaming the government to give his cronies opportunities they want. I'd point a finger much quicker at whoever it was at EPA that sanctioned the torpedoing of EMD's compliance with Tier 4 final "NOx" emissions.
There is a difference between having a former corporate guy now regulating his former corporate colleagues and an actual worker doing so. For example, an EHH-type as head of FRA or DOT, as opposed to a former dispatcher or engineer.
deleted
Correct.
BaltACD Unions are a method to enforce written agreements. Governmnent regulatory agencies don't enforce Union contracts.
Unions are a method to enforce written agreements. Governmnent regulatory agencies don't enforce Union contracts.
The fox guarding the henhouse? Hopefully not!
charlie hebdoIt's especially bad since in many regulatory and other departments, the upper echelon comes from the industries they are supposed to regulate!
A mixed blessing - we've seen what happens when people with little or no knowledge of the railroad industry are placed in positions of authority - be it management or regulatory.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
charlie hebdo Backshop charlie hebdo Unions do more than raise pay scales. They also concern themselves with work conditions and safety. Perhaps that is what is missing here? Correct. I like how anti-union people say "that doesn't matter because we have OSHA" while totally ignoring that if there wasn't an organized watchdog group paying attention, industry would have their lobbyists working on repealing and watering down standards in a minute. It's especially bad since in many regulatory and other departments, the upper echelon comes from the industries they are supposed to regulate!
Backshop charlie hebdo Unions do more than raise pay scales. They also concern themselves with work conditions and safety. Perhaps that is what is missing here? Correct. I like how anti-union people say "that doesn't matter because we have OSHA" while totally ignoring that if there wasn't an organized watchdog group paying attention, industry would have their lobbyists working on repealing and watering down standards in a minute.
charlie hebdo Unions do more than raise pay scales. They also concern themselves with work conditions and safety. Perhaps that is what is missing here?
Unions do more than raise pay scales. They also concern themselves with work conditions and safety. Perhaps that is what is missing here?
Correct. I like how anti-union people say "that doesn't matter because we have OSHA" while totally ignoring that if there wasn't an organized watchdog group paying attention, industry would have their lobbyists working on repealing and watering down standards in a minute.
It's especially bad since in many regulatory and other departments, the upper echelon comes from the industries they are supposed to regulate!
A Union contract is a AGREEMENT between the company and the union with both parties agreeing to WRITTEN work rules and pay rates.
How many of us, in dealing with our work superiors have sought out a rasie for the work we have done, that in OUR minds are above and beyond the requirements of the job we hold - and we get the sob story about how the company can't afford such a raise or some other means of declining the request that both parties know is pure BS - BUT there is no written agreement to be enforced.
It's funny all this talk of waivers of HOS and drivers working "extra" time/miles. Before the electronic log book requirement this was normal for many drivers. Especially those working for the bottom feeder companies. One reason the government wanted to go to E-logs. It's harder to "be creative" with them.
Before they got caught doing it, instructors at one trucking program at a community college would show student drivers how to "be creative" with the logs. I took the program over 30 years and the instructors admited this. They also said if one had a "question" about such things, they would answer, "you said that, I didn't."
Backshop York1 There is a driver shortage at the same time the pandemic has increased demand for shipping products. There really isn't a driver shortage. There's a shortage of drivers who want to work for what most companies are willing to pay. The culprits are the bottom feeder megacarriers like Swift, Prime and CR England. Their starting pay is normally in the low to mid $.30cpm. Think about that. You have to drive 100K a year to make $35K a year. You might get 2 days at home after being gone 2-3 weeks, on average. Due to union busting and deregulation, driver salaries haven't kept up with inflation. When I worked for Schneider back in 1995, their starting pay then was .25cpm. I believe that CR England was paying .13-15cpm. Compare this to unionized railroad operating jobs. All their jobs are out-and-back so they are home at least every other day. Plus, they get paid more, with better benefits. It's just like the regional airlines. They kept crying about a pilot shortage. They finally raised their hourly rate and they had plenty of applicants. My brother worked for American Eagle as a Captain before he went to Northwest/Delta. In their first year, First Officers (copilots) made about $15K a year. We were eating in the local Cracker Barrel once when I was visiting him and he pointed out one of the waiters and said he was an FO trying to make ends meet. Say what you will about unions, but if there isn't a critical mass of union jobs in an industry, wages suffer because employers don't have to worry about a union coming in. That's why nonunion wages are much higher in the auto industry than in trucking. There is still a threat of the UAW organizing if they don't come close to union benefits and pay.
York1 There is a driver shortage at the same time the pandemic has increased demand for shipping products.
There is a driver shortage at the same time the pandemic has increased demand for shipping products.
There really isn't a driver shortage. There's a shortage of drivers who want to work for what most companies are willing to pay. The culprits are the bottom feeder megacarriers like Swift, Prime and CR England. Their starting pay is normally in the low to mid $.30cpm. Think about that. You have to drive 100K a year to make $35K a year. You might get 2 days at home after being gone 2-3 weeks, on average. Due to union busting and deregulation, driver salaries haven't kept up with inflation. When I worked for Schneider back in 1995, their starting pay then was .25cpm. I believe that CR England was paying .13-15cpm.
Compare this to unionized railroad operating jobs. All their jobs are out-and-back so they are home at least every other day. Plus, they get paid more, with better benefits.
It's just like the regional airlines. They kept crying about a pilot shortage. They finally raised their hourly rate and they had plenty of applicants. My brother worked for American Eagle as a Captain before he went to Northwest/Delta. In their first year, First Officers (copilots) made about $15K a year. We were eating in the local Cracker Barrel once when I was visiting him and he pointed out one of the waiters and said he was an FO trying to make ends meet.
Say what you will about unions, but if there isn't a critical mass of union jobs in an industry, wages suffer because employers don't have to worry about a union coming in. That's why nonunion wages are much higher in the auto industry than in trucking. There is still a threat of the UAW organizing if they don't come close to union benefits and pay.
To York1 and Backshop: I cannot argue either of your points. As to a shortage of OTR Drivers; I say you are probably spot-on...Driving OTR as a single driver requires some unique psychological characterristics; I would say important traits would be a person who is able to work alone, and is especially able to self- motivate to a level of goal orientation. To Backshop, you are correct, Union organized and covered jobs generally will rise to the tops of the available pay scales. But they can come with some pit-falls, specifically, lay-offs, and senority issues; 'bumping' from OTR to possibly, city P/D or Dock work. To name just a couple of big issues to some. Not to mention a couple of important terms to drivers: "No Touch load/Unload" or " Drop and Hook Loads" or any description of driver's work required.
As to driver pay scales; I would defer to some Internet Search information on current job scales. Here is one that seems to maybe be current information?
https://www.ziprecLruiter.com/Salaries/OTR-Truck-Driver-Salary
Here is a linked site for Schneider National/Green Bay Wi.
@ https://www.truckdriverssalary.com/schneider-trucking-pay/
Anyone can Search" OTR ASingle/Team Drivrs pay" and find out about any current hiring for OTR Jobs. Basicly, Name yourown poison!
Maybe, the above information will help some, and others to go out and get a paper route.
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