https://www.newscentermaine.com/mobile/article/news/pan-am-railways-to-be-sold-to-florida-based-csx-corp/97-62c3d38f-1318-4773-b64d-0cf81a91d4ce?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot
If this pans out, and I'm guessing it will, this will gloriously end the sad Timothy Mellon era of the former Maine Central and B&M.
Now, I guess I don't know if those lines will "be" CSX; maybe The Pan Am name will remain, only CSX will run it. But I hope it gets fully integrated, and I can see blue and yellow engines up here. Pan Am has been mostly a pretty scuzzie operation. And although better in recent years, for a long time their public image was way beyond bad.
Still in training.
This is somewhat of a puzzle to me. This would effectively add a second, parallel line from upstate NY to the Boston area through Hoosac Tunnel. Doesn't NS have trackage rights over that line? I wonder if they would issue a protest to the STB about this.
Personally, I'm against this. Sounds like just another move to add what would effectively become a "redundent" route then "rationalize".
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
One plausible scenario is that Pan Am Southern will go to Norfolk Southern.
One potential factor is Port St John in New Brunswick. Pan Am interchanges with the Easten Maine Railway-New Brunswick Southern Railway system at Mattawamkeag. Port St John is undergoing a $200+ million expansion that will allow it to berth 360 meter container ships in the 8,500-10,000 TEU size. The port throughput will go from about 75,000 TEU annually to about 330,000 TEU annually. That is about 900 containers per day in and out on average, which would be 4.5 trains per day of 100 wells each if they all go be rail.
With the shift of manufacturing out of China to South Asia, more trade will be coming via the Suez Canal and Mediterranean Sea. Port St John is the second closest port to the Strait of Gibraltar after Halifax.
It would take some clearance improvements and upgrading some line to 286,000-lbs from Bangor to Mattawamkeag, but there is the future potential for container service from Port St John to the Northeast and Midwest. It would be CSX's longest container route.
CP also accesses Port St John via the Eastern Maine Railway-New Brunswick Southern at Brownville Junction.
The port expansion is one reason - not the only reason, but one reason - that they purchased Central Maine & Quebec.
Time will tell but it will be interesting to watch.
Lithonia Operator Pan Am has been mostly a pretty scuzzie operation. And although better in recent years, for a long time their public image was way beyond bad.
Honestly, I've always been puzzled why they called it "Pan Am." If you're in a certain age bracket when you hear "Pan Am" the first thing you think of isn't railroading.
And if you're in a really special age bracket you might even think of this: https://flyingcloudschinaclippers.blogspot.com/2016/08/china-clipper-calling-alameda-china.html
They might have been more popular if they said "Let's call it the Boston & Maine! Why the hell not?" Proud people, those New Englanders, they'd have loved it.
Flintlock76 Lithonia Operator Pan Am has been mostly a pretty scuzzie operation. And although better in recent years, for a long time their public image was way beyond bad. Honestly, I've always been puzzled why they called it "Pan Am." If you're in a certain age bracket when you hear "Pan Am" the first thing you think of isn't railroading. And if you're in a really special age bracket you might even think of this: https://flyingcloudschinaclippers.blogspot.com/2016/08/china-clipper-calling-alameda-china.html They might have been more popular if they said "Let's call it the Boston & Maine! Why the hell not?" Proud people, those New Englanders, they'd have loved it.
I think at the time it became Pan Am, the thought was just name it anything but Guilford.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It's worth remembering that Guilford/Pan Am fought tooth & nail to keep Amtrak's Downeaster from using their tracks. For long years readers of railroad news in Trains and elsewhere marvelled at the stubbornness and opposition of this company and their complete disregard of good public relations.
I'm not privy to the actual numbers, but I'll venture that of the total cost to rehabilitate this line for passenger service, very little came from the company that owned it and afterwards could profit from it itself. At the least, it's a very uncreative company.
I'll also note that having the Downeaster serve Maine has been a success that's benefitted many people and helped boost the state's economy.
The Pan Am trade name and logo were available, I guess from whatever paper entity of the airline still existed. Guilford bought that identity. I'm pretty sure that Balt is correct; the name "Guilford" had become, a least here in Maine, pretty much the same as "$#!t." So they bought his respected name. I thought was quite silly at the time, but I guess it did help them change their image somewhat.
I also immediately wondered about the northern (Hoosac Tunnel) line, which seems in some ways to now become uselessly redundant. I cannot remember from the last time (many years ago) I followed those tracks, how much online business there is; I don't think there's a lot.
NKP guy It's worth remembering that Guilford/Pan Am fought tooth & nail to keep Amtrak's Downeaster from using their tracks. For long years readers of railroad news in Trains and elsewhere marvelled at the stubbornness and opposition of this company and their complete disregard of good public relations. I'm not privy to the actual numbers, but I'll venture that of the total cost to rehabilitate this line for passenger service, very little came from the company that owned it and afterwards could profit from it itself. At the least, it's a very uncreative company. I'll also note that having the Downeaster serve Maine has been a success that's benefitted many people and helped boost the state's economy.
Every word you said is true.
I should mention, though, that relations with the Downeaster eventually improved. I did a lot of work for the Downeaster, and at one point, when the extension to Freeport was christened, I found myself riding in the Pan Am executive car, on the end of the Amtrak train. David Fink Jr. was there, as was Patricia Quinn, the head of NNEPRA, who manages the Downeaster); those two seemed to get along very well, and I was told by her that they did. His father (then retired) was the grinch who stole Christmas.
I'm thinking CSX will "demarket" most of the small and mid-sized customers and "rationalize" most lines leaving only a couple higher-volume lanes. Like CN did with the Wisconsin Central aquisition.
To me the big questions are whether they'll retain much of the B&M east-west main; and how much of what all they acquire will be bought by shortlines, and how much will be abandoned.
Since CSX already has the Boston & Albany, I wouldn't be too surprised if the STB orders that the other 50% interest in the B&M east-west main be sold to NS.
There is a Trains Blog topic on this, and in it a clearance map was referenced. It shows that most of the line thru NH and Maine is plate F, 17' clearance.
https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/definitive-csx-acquiring-pan-am-railways/
[quote user="Lithonia Operator"]
It would take some clearance improvements and upgrading some line to 286,000-lbs from Bangor to Mattawamkeag, but there is the future potential for container service from Port St John to the Northeast and Midwest. It would be CSXT's longest container route.
NOW, Where is that popcorn machine when you need it?
P.S. To add a thought on this deal: Re: Hoosac Tunnel (?)
Note(#1) "...In 2009, ownership of the tunnel was transferred to Pan Am Southern, a 50-50 joint venture of Pan Am Railways and Norfolk Southern Railway. Freight trains through the tunnel are operated by Springfield Terminal Railway, the train operating subsidiary of Pan Am Railways.
NS might be 'a reluctant bride' at the shotgun wedding of CSXT and PAS (?)
Some more on the Hoosac Tunnel @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoosac Tunnel
First, in the agreement that NS signed with Pan Am to create PAS, didn't they have any language to protect themselves in the event of these commonplace mergers?
Second, didn't NS have the chance to bid on Pan Am, or otherwise influence the outcome? Why are they complaining now when they passed up the opportunity?
Because that's what you do.
EDIT: By that I meant "one does." Not Midland Mike does!
In looking via Google Msps at potential doublestack routes west from Port Saint John through Massachusetts, it appears that the one logical route may be Pan Am to East Deerfield then down to Springfield to jump on the Boston & Albany.
At the risk of sounding overly simplistic, it looks like clearances could be increased for doublestacks by lowering the track beneath highway overpasses. Here is a PAR clearance map.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a3d34cbf09ca44c384dd0f4/t/5a43e42cf9619a2bb2ceafac/1514398765171/Clearances.jpg
There might be some upgrading to 286K needed on some stretches of track. While living in southern WI for a period of time, I was able to "watch from close up" as WIsconsin & Southern did that. It consisted mainly of strengthening bridges and then, where there was very old light rail, replacing it with 115 lb welded rail.
Here is a PAR weight map.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a3d34cbf09ca44c384dd0f4/t/5f9afcf02ed77a33adff5434/1603992817866/weight.jpg
All in all, it seems plausible that CSX may be able to run doublestacks from Port Saint John to the midwest in the future. It is about 1,000 miles to Cleveland and 1,300 miles to Chicago, making it CSX's longest intermodal lane. If it happens.
Port Saint John is expanding with a $200+ million expansion to berth two container ships simultaneously of up to 360 meters each, which depending on the beam of the ship puts them in the 8,500-10,000 TEU range.
https://www.craneandhoistcanada.com/port-of-saint-john-expansion-underway-1348/
https://www.joc.com/port-news/international-ports/port-saint-john/dp-world-aims-make-canada-saint-john-gateway-us-imports_20160922.html
It will be interesting to watch, for sure.
kgbw49. While living in southern WI for a period of time, I was able to "watch from close up" as WIsconsin & Southern did that. It consisted mainly of strengthening bridges and then, where there was very old light rail, replacing it with 115 lb welded rail.
So the success of Wisconsin and Southern was tied directly to Randy Gardner whom before he was convicted was a successful highway contractor and lobbyist prior to his involvement with WSOR. He knew how to grease the skids as they say to get state funding for highway projects. He used the same techniques with Wisconsin and Southern and eventually got caught because he made the mistake of telling his girlfriend who ran off to the authorities and snitched after some argument they had. Broke the first rule of Highway Contractors, never tell someone outside the family about the family business.
He knew how to schmooze state officials by putting them on special passenger trains with himself narrating the route, wining and dining them, etc. I was impressed watching from afar because that is very similar to what large IT consulting companies due when they persue an IT contract from a company. Take the client on the tour of their software labs, courtesy a flight in the business jet, some nice hotel time and dinners with booze. So if you ever wonder why highways always get the money and rails are starved. Pretty sure it is the highway lobby.
I have to admit I don't know the back story in depth on Wisconsin & Southern that you refer to. What they physically they did to get to 286K on the roadbed is what I was referencing.
WAMX is the operator of all those State-owned lines now so hopefully the communities that still have their rail service are glad to have it.
I do think CSX has the financial horsepower to do their own upgrading for clearances and 286K on PAR if they decide that is the way to go.
I don't know if CSXT has any interest in the Port of Saint John, NB but CP definately does. CP has a contract to haul Hapag-Lloyd containers from the Port of Montreal to the US Midwest and Western Canada, this business originates in Europe. Hapag-Lloyd is having problems due to strikes at Montreal. CP and Hapag-Lloyd have announced a new service for the same markets operating via the Port of Saint John, NB
CP and Hapag-Lloyd agreement
A couple of interesting links about the Port of Saint John expansion project.
This link notes that after the project is completed the port will be able to handle New Panamax ships.
https://www.dillon.ca/projects/project-details/west-side-terminals-modernization---saint-john-nb
This link indicates that New Panamax ships can be up to 366 meters in length with a beam of up to 49 meters, and can handle up to 12,500 TEUs.
https://transportgeography.org/?page_id=2232
This link has a detailed diagram of the finished port expansion project.
https://www.sjport.com/modernize/project-overview/
kgbw49A couple of interesting links about the Port of Saint John expansion project. This link notes that after the project is completed the port will be able to handle New Panamax ships. https://www.dillon.ca/projects/project-details/west-side-terminals-modernization---saint-john-nb This link indicates that New Panamax ships can be up to 366 meters in length with a beam of up to 49 meters, and can handle up to 12,500 TEUs. https://transportgeography.org/?page_id=2232 This link has a detailed diagram of the finished port expansion project. https://www.sjport.com/modernize/project-overview/
Low tide channel depth is rather lacking at 9.5 meters - today's vessels in addition to being long and wide are also deep draft.
Yes indeed. There is a chart out there of the widening and deepening of the ship channel and the harbor itself to handle the larger ships.
kgbw49Yes indeed. There is a chart out there of the widening and deepening of the ship channel and the harbor itself to handle the larger ships.
The maritime industry view ports based on their low tide draft, not high tide.
Port of Baltimore loaded coal carrying vessels to their Baltimore maximum draft of 39 feet. The vessels would sail down the Chesapeake Bay to be 'topped off' at Newport News with their draft of 56 feet. Vessels would get 60K tons in Baltimore and another 100K tons at Newport News to take across the pond to destination.
If you send a vessel into a port with a draft of somewhere between the low tide and high tide figures - at low tide the vessel will be sitting on the bottom - which does no good to the hull structure.
Yes, I understand. Articles quoting the port manager indicate they expect to berth ships primarily in the 8,500 TEU range. A robust dredging regimen will likely be necessary as the berths are literally in the river as well as subject to the tides.
The container ship table linked above shows that 8,500 TEU vessels have drafts of between 14 and 15 meters.
Removed and moved to Passenger thread
Per the Port of Saint John web site, the berths for container ships will be 17.1 meters deep at low tide. This will still accomodate New Panamax ships with 15.2 meters of draft.
Clearly the berths will be dredged down to form a "tub" for continued flotation at low tide.
They will have to arrive and depart at high tide.
kgbw49 Per the Port of Saint John web site, the berths for container ships will be 17.1 meters deep at low tide. This will still accomodate New Panamax ships with 15.2 meters of draft. Clearly the berths will be dredged down to form a "tub" for continued flotatiom at low tide. They will have to arrive and depart at high tide.
Clearly the berths will be dredged down to form a "tub" for continued flotatiom at low tide.
Not a great incentive to shipping, to have to wait up to 12 hours to enter and exit the port. The port has about a 26 foot tidal range.
MidlandMike kgbw49 Per the Port of Saint John web site, the berths for container ships will be 17.1 meters deep at low tide. This will still accomodate New Panamax ships with 15.2 meters of draft. Clearly the berths will be dredged down to form a "tub" for continued flotatiom at low tide. They will have to arrive and depart at high tide. Not a great incentive to shipping, to have to wait up to 12 hours to enter and exit the port. The port has about a 26 foot tidal range.
The Bay of Fundy is well known for its enormous tides.
Saint John is the site of the famous 'Reversing Falls', where the rising tide overcomes the downstream flow of the Saint John River:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversing_Falls
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
MidlandMikeNot a great incentive to shipping, to have to wait up to 12 hours to enter and exit the port.
I also doubt that 12-odd hours max delay constitutes a major critical delay in overall delivery time for most , if anyone sensible planned the schedule.
At least nobody said "It was such a bore to make them wait that long"
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