Hapag-Lloyd is scheduling additional calls on Port Saint John. Container activity is picking up at Port Saint John even prior to completion of the $205 million expansion.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cp-and-hapag-lloyd-announce-additional-seasonal-call-into-port-saint-john-301531535.html
For NS to get all of Pan Am Southern the Hoosic tunnel may become a real impediment. The last collaspe of the tunnel may be an indication of more problems in the future. Can someone explain the actual conditions of the rock and soil that has caused these problems. Could the tunnel actually be reinforced to prevent these problems ?. Also any way to increase clearances if improvements were made ?
It would seem prudent that if NS gets PAS that NS would be awarded unlimited trackage rights around Hoosic if another possible collaspe happens. That would include keeping all crew qualified on detour route(s).
Historically, New England was served by more regional railroads that pretty much went no further west than approximately the west shore of the Hudson, or were north-south connections to Canada.
Boston and Maine, New Haven, Rutland, Central Vermont, Lehigh & New England, etc.
The one exception was the Boston and Albany, which as part of New York Central was part of a larger system with longer reach.
Pan Am Railways is primarily the Boston & Maine with remnants of the other systems.
CSX is the successor to the Boston & Albany, and that won't change if they are allowed to purchase Pan Am Railways, but they will also become partial successor to the Boston & Maine.
If the STB is interested in enhancing competition with two strong competitors, requiring divestiture of Pan Am Southern to Norfolk Southern in addition to the doublestack trackage rights would set up most of New England with two large-system competitors for the first time ever.
(Plus the ever-present truckers, of course.)
I would also like to see NS acquire Pan Am Southern, if not just for the apparent balance. I suppose since they bought the southern half of the ex-D&H when they did not have to, maybe they would also take full possession of PAS, if they got it at a bargen price.
Sorry, my bad for lack of clarity. I meant in addition to the doublestack trackage rights.
The idea being to keep two Class I competitors in New England to a greater degree than the current CSX proposal.
It should be interesting to see what shakes out!
I don't know NS would actually want Pan Am Southern. It's constrained by Hoosic Tunnel clearances, and the present deal gives trackage rights to NS over the CSX ex-B&A for stack trains, plus NS doesn't need to own the substandard clearance line, forcing CSX to maintain the parallel lines.
Looks like the STB is sending CSX back to the drawing board. One wonders if divestiture of Pan Am Southern to NS will be required by the time it all shakes out.
Pusan C is currently on its way to Australia, but recently called at the Port of New Orleans and was the largest container ship to do so to date. See the picture caption in this linked article.
https://www.railwayage.com/intermodal/port-nola-moves-forward-on-new-container-terminal/
The point of the post noting Pusan C is that in its dimensions of length, beam and draft, Pusan C is an example of exactly the size of vessel that Port Saint John is being modernized to handle and will be able to berth once the modernization program is complete.
That is what CP is looking at strategically, and perhaps CSX may be as well.
kgbw49Here is an example of the type of ship that can call at Port of Saint John after the expansion and dredging is complete. 336 meters long, 45 meter beam, 11.7 meter draught, and 9,572 TEUs. https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:121795/mmsi:209251000/imo:9307229/vessel:PUSAN_C
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:121795/mmsi:209251000/imo:9307229/vessel:PUSAN_C
Position Received: 2020-12-10 17:35 UTC
Vessel is Out-of-Range
Area: EAFR - East Africa
Current Port: - Near Reunion Island
Latitude / Longitude: -21.37123° / 56.57287°
Status: Underway using Engine
Speed/Course: 18.2 kn / 124 °
AIS Source: 2868 Tony D
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Here is an example of the type of ship that can call at Port of Saint John after the expansion and dredging is complete. 336 meters long, 45 meter beam, 11.7 meter draught, and 9,572 TEUs.
Here is an article on the Port of Saint John expansion from November 2020:
https://atlanticbusinessmagazine.net/article/west-side-modernization-project-positions-port-saint-john-for-global-growth/
As I recall, the "acid train" that once came through my area originated in St Johns.
I believe it was chiefly chemicals, and was separate from the regular trains that ran through here.
Eventually, those trains stopped, undoubtedly rerouted elsewhere.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
One thing about the Port of Saint John - it is already a significant port besides container traffic. There is significant shipping traffic using the port already. So it is not as if having a larger container ship than currently calls there is something that is out of the ordinary. You can see photos on-line of huge cruise ships berthed there simultaneously along with numerous other merchantmen scattered around the port. For the Port of Saint John, going up to 8,500 TEU container ships is a change but an incremental change to all the shipping activity of all types already taking place.
I've sailed to Nova Scotia. if you're in a constricted area (like between a point of land and an island) the currents from those giant tides can get really scary. If you're in a craft with a top speed of 6 knots, getting hit by a 4-knot cross-current will raise your heart rate fast. And eddies can suddenly start turning the boat, trying to spin it around. Not fun.
MidlandMikeNot a great incentive to shipping, to have to wait up to 12 hours to enter and exit the port.
I also doubt that 12-odd hours max delay constitutes a major critical delay in overall delivery time for most , if anyone sensible planned the schedule.
At least nobody said "It was such a bore to make them wait that long"
MidlandMike kgbw49 Per the Port of Saint John web site, the berths for container ships will be 17.1 meters deep at low tide. This will still accomodate New Panamax ships with 15.2 meters of draft. Clearly the berths will be dredged down to form a "tub" for continued flotatiom at low tide. They will have to arrive and depart at high tide. Not a great incentive to shipping, to have to wait up to 12 hours to enter and exit the port. The port has about a 26 foot tidal range.
kgbw49 Per the Port of Saint John web site, the berths for container ships will be 17.1 meters deep at low tide. This will still accomodate New Panamax ships with 15.2 meters of draft. Clearly the berths will be dredged down to form a "tub" for continued flotatiom at low tide. They will have to arrive and depart at high tide.
Per the Port of Saint John web site, the berths for container ships will be 17.1 meters deep at low tide. This will still accomodate New Panamax ships with 15.2 meters of draft.
Clearly the berths will be dredged down to form a "tub" for continued flotatiom at low tide.
They will have to arrive and depart at high tide.
Not a great incentive to shipping, to have to wait up to 12 hours to enter and exit the port. The port has about a 26 foot tidal range.
The Bay of Fundy is well known for its enormous tides.
Saint John is the site of the famous 'Reversing Falls', where the rising tide overcomes the downstream flow of the Saint John River:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversing_Falls
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Clearly the berths will be dredged down to form a "tub" for continued flotation at low tide.
Removed and moved to Passenger thread
Yes, I understand. Articles quoting the port manager indicate they expect to berth ships primarily in the 8,500 TEU range. A robust dredging regimen will likely be necessary as the berths are literally in the river as well as subject to the tides.
The container ship table linked above shows that 8,500 TEU vessels have drafts of between 14 and 15 meters.
kgbw49Yes indeed. There is a chart out there of the widening and deepening of the ship channel and the harbor itself to handle the larger ships.
The maritime industry view ports based on their low tide draft, not high tide.
Port of Baltimore loaded coal carrying vessels to their Baltimore maximum draft of 39 feet. The vessels would sail down the Chesapeake Bay to be 'topped off' at Newport News with their draft of 56 feet. Vessels would get 60K tons in Baltimore and another 100K tons at Newport News to take across the pond to destination.
If you send a vessel into a port with a draft of somewhere between the low tide and high tide figures - at low tide the vessel will be sitting on the bottom - which does no good to the hull structure.
Yes indeed. There is a chart out there of the widening and deepening of the ship channel and the harbor itself to handle the larger ships.
kgbw49A couple of interesting links about the Port of Saint John expansion project. This link notes that after the project is completed the port will be able to handle New Panamax ships. https://www.dillon.ca/projects/project-details/west-side-terminals-modernization---saint-john-nb This link indicates that New Panamax ships can be up to 366 meters in length with a beam of up to 49 meters, and can handle up to 12,500 TEUs. https://transportgeography.org/?page_id=2232 This link has a detailed diagram of the finished port expansion project. https://www.sjport.com/modernize/project-overview/
This link notes that after the project is completed the port will be able to handle New Panamax ships.
https://www.dillon.ca/projects/project-details/west-side-terminals-modernization---saint-john-nb
This link indicates that New Panamax ships can be up to 366 meters in length with a beam of up to 49 meters, and can handle up to 12,500 TEUs.
https://transportgeography.org/?page_id=2232
This link has a detailed diagram of the finished port expansion project.
https://www.sjport.com/modernize/project-overview/
Low tide channel depth is rather lacking at 9.5 meters - today's vessels in addition to being long and wide are also deep draft.
A couple of interesting links about the Port of Saint John expansion project.
I don't know if CSXT has any interest in the Port of Saint John, NB but CP definately does. CP has a contract to haul Hapag-Lloyd containers from the Port of Montreal to the US Midwest and Western Canada, this business originates in Europe. Hapag-Lloyd is having problems due to strikes at Montreal. CP and Hapag-Lloyd have announced a new service for the same markets operating via the Port of Saint John, NB
CP and Hapag-Lloyd agreement
I have to admit I don't know the back story in depth on Wisconsin & Southern that you refer to. What they physically they did to get to 286K on the roadbed is what I was referencing.
WAMX is the operator of all those State-owned lines now so hopefully the communities that still have their rail service are glad to have it.
I do think CSX has the financial horsepower to do their own upgrading for clearances and 286K on PAR if they decide that is the way to go.
kgbw49. While living in southern WI for a period of time, I was able to "watch from close up" as WIsconsin & Southern did that. It consisted mainly of strengthening bridges and then, where there was very old light rail, replacing it with 115 lb welded rail.
So the success of Wisconsin and Southern was tied directly to Randy Gardner whom before he was convicted was a successful highway contractor and lobbyist prior to his involvement with WSOR. He knew how to grease the skids as they say to get state funding for highway projects. He used the same techniques with Wisconsin and Southern and eventually got caught because he made the mistake of telling his girlfriend who ran off to the authorities and snitched after some argument they had. Broke the first rule of Highway Contractors, never tell someone outside the family about the family business.
He knew how to schmooze state officials by putting them on special passenger trains with himself narrating the route, wining and dining them, etc. I was impressed watching from afar because that is very similar to what large IT consulting companies due when they persue an IT contract from a company. Take the client on the tour of their software labs, courtesy a flight in the business jet, some nice hotel time and dinners with booze. So if you ever wonder why highways always get the money and rails are starved. Pretty sure it is the highway lobby.
In looking via Google Msps at potential doublestack routes west from Port Saint John through Massachusetts, it appears that the one logical route may be Pan Am to East Deerfield then down to Springfield to jump on the Boston & Albany.
At the risk of sounding overly simplistic, it looks like clearances could be increased for doublestacks by lowering the track beneath highway overpasses. Here is a PAR clearance map.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a3d34cbf09ca44c384dd0f4/t/5a43e42cf9619a2bb2ceafac/1514398765171/Clearances.jpg
There might be some upgrading to 286K needed on some stretches of track. While living in southern WI for a period of time, I was able to "watch from close up" as WIsconsin & Southern did that. It consisted mainly of strengthening bridges and then, where there was very old light rail, replacing it with 115 lb welded rail.
Here is a PAR weight map.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a3d34cbf09ca44c384dd0f4/t/5f9afcf02ed77a33adff5434/1603992817866/weight.jpg
All in all, it seems plausible that CSX may be able to run doublestacks from Port Saint John to the midwest in the future. It is about 1,000 miles to Cleveland and 1,300 miles to Chicago, making it CSX's longest intermodal lane. If it happens.
Port Saint John is expanding with a $200+ million expansion to berth two container ships simultaneously of up to 360 meters each, which depending on the beam of the ship puts them in the 8,500-10,000 TEU range.
https://www.craneandhoistcanada.com/port-of-saint-john-expansion-underway-1348/
https://www.joc.com/port-news/international-ports/port-saint-john/dp-world-aims-make-canada-saint-john-gateway-us-imports_20160922.html
It will be interesting to watch, for sure.
Because that's what you do.
EDIT: By that I meant "one does." Not Midland Mike does!
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