KBCpresident Was there really enough industry on the East shore of Lake Superior to keep the Algoma Central in business as an independent company? Obviously WC saw something in them. I don't have an esxtensive knowledge of that part of Ontario, so I may be missing something, but perhaps it doesn't have enough traffic for a class 1 the size of CN to want to deal with.
Was there really enough industry on the East shore of Lake Superior to keep the Algoma Central in business as an independent company? Obviously WC saw something in them. I don't have an esxtensive knowledge of that part of Ontario, so I may be missing something, but perhaps it doesn't have enough traffic for a class 1 the size of CN to want to deal with.
When WC bought them in 1995, there were several major industries that don't exist today.
The iron ore mines at Wawa were still producing train loads of ore for Algoma Steel (closed in 1998), there was a major sawmill at Dubreuilville between Hawk Junction and Franz (closed in 2007), the St. Marys Paper mill in Sault Ste. Marie (closed 2007), and a new OSB mill was established just south of Hawk Junction around the time of the merger (also closed somewhere around the 2007 forestry downturn).
Plus the heavy steel traffic, and misc lumber, paper and mining bridge traffic from the CP and ONR. From the late 1990s to about 2010 or so(?) there was a large phosphate mine on the ONR which shipped west via Hearst-Oba.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
VerMontanan wasd: Please elaborate. What traffic is in the interchange at Hearst? Given that Ontario Northland now operates Cochrane to Hearst/Calstock, I would guess that any interchange would be wood products from this line that would be going west at Oba (CN) or west at Franz (CP). Anything for Ontario, Quebec, the Maritimes, and the Eastern U.S. would undoubtedly interchange with CN at North Bay. "If ONR had access to this route, they would almost certainly use it as an alternative route to get their shipments across the border." Toward what end? The railroad "at the border" at Sault Ste. Marie is also CN. This could change to a shortline sometime in the near future, but regardless, this would only route the traffic across the UP of Michigan and into Eastern Wisconsin before being dispersed. The route might be a bit closer for cars going to/through Chicago, but probably not a lot faster as the railroad from Sault Ste. Marie to Neenah/Menasha is just a branch line operation. And lastly, what traffic is CN routing around the former Algoma Central?
wasd: Please elaborate.
What traffic is in the interchange at Hearst? Given that Ontario Northland now operates Cochrane to Hearst/Calstock, I would guess that any interchange would be wood products from this line that would be going west at Oba (CN) or west at Franz (CP). Anything for Ontario, Quebec, the Maritimes, and the Eastern U.S. would undoubtedly interchange with CN at North Bay.
"If ONR had access to this route, they would almost certainly use it as an alternative route to get their shipments across the border." Toward what end? The railroad "at the border" at Sault Ste. Marie is also CN. This could change to a shortline sometime in the near future, but regardless, this would only route the traffic across the UP of Michigan and into Eastern Wisconsin before being dispersed. The route might be a bit closer for cars going to/through Chicago, but probably not a lot faster as the railroad from Sault Ste. Marie to Neenah/Menasha is just a branch line operation.
And lastly, what traffic is CN routing around the former Algoma Central?
Copper ore concentrate from northern Michigan (Eagle Mountain mine) to Sudbury/Copper Cliff (via Oba) and Rouyn-Noranda (via Hearst and ONR).
Lumber and forest products from ONR (via Hearst) to mid-west/central US (via SSM).
Steel from Algoma Steel that used to go to Franz and Oba interchanges.
Pulpwood - have been seeing this pretty often this summer on CN 397 (Toronto-Chicago) likely from the north end of the ACR going to Michigan/Wisconsin. Haven't seen anything going the other way (at least not in daylight) but for a while there were logs being shipped from (I think) the south end of the ACR to Quebec via the ONR.
There was also some bridge traffic from the CP at Franz to the US of woodpulp from mills on the Superior north shore. Not sure if this is just going via Subury and HCRY right now.
Misc. fuel (gasoline/diesel) and chemicals (sulphuric acid from mining around Timmins and Rouyn-Noranda etc.)
Last time I was up there there was also a bunch of steel scrap from a dealer in Quebec with their own cars shipping over the ONR and CN/AC to SSM. While a LOT of steel scrap moves around Southern Ontario, I've never seen that companie's reporting marks down here, so I don't know if any of it is still moving to Algoma Steel or other mills.
Did some digging about the Quebec Rail Corperation and this is what I found:
"It was hoped the new company would bring a vision and a financial commitment to make this short line empire thrive. Unfortunately, according to a former senior QRC official, the company was not interested in long-term operations. The objective was to buy the lines at a low price and sell them high as they somehow accrued value without any significant investment. That didn‘t occur."
The whole report is here:
http://transportactionatlantic.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Revitalizing-New-Brunswick%E2%80%99s-Rail-Sector-Report.pdf
CN is no saint, and is/was definitely part of the problem with the Intercolonial Railway mainline, but the 2000s was really the era of predatory, pump-and-dump shortlines. It seems that a lot of these companies were worse than the class 1 that preceeded them.
MidlandMike williamsb Shortlines became shortlines because they were already marginal lines at best. Some of rhe shady American owners such as Omnitrax, etc didn't help any. Shady? They bought a marginal shortline thru the tundra, at least counting on wheat committed thru the port of Churchill. That was until the line was sold and Canada no longer saw the need to send wheat thru that northern port. Omnitrax still carried on this charity operation until catastrophic flooding washed out the line. Canada turned a deaf ear to any disaster relief, that is until a Canadian consortium took over the line.
williamsb Shortlines became shortlines because they were already marginal lines at best. Some of rhe shady American owners such as Omnitrax, etc didn't help any.
Shady? They bought a marginal shortline thru the tundra, at least counting on wheat committed thru the port of Churchill. That was until the line was sold and Canada no longer saw the need to send wheat thru that northern port. Omnitrax still carried on this charity operation until catastrophic flooding washed out the line. Canada turned a deaf ear to any disaster relief, that is until a Canadian consortium took over the line.
Omnitrax had been deferring maintenance long before the Wheat Board went away.
They have operated their Carlton Trail Railway in the same manner, its eastern half (Warman to the Prince Albert area) is still in operation. But the western half (North Battleford to Meadow Lake) was abandoned 10 or 12 years ago, after years of demarketing and deferred maintenance. That line's largest customer (the Meadow Lake pulp mill) is still operating, but now has to truck their freight to and from CN's North Battleford yard.
MidlandMike williamsb Cape Breton & Central Nova Scotia (American ownership again) Canada is not apparently about to bail out CB Island's steel and coal industry, but you expect a foreigh rail company to continue serving the island after the collapse of the freight market?
williamsb Cape Breton & Central Nova Scotia (American ownership again)
Canada is not apparently about to bail out CB Island's steel and coal industry, but you expect a foreigh rail company to continue serving the island after the collapse of the freight market?
I'll agree with you on this one.
A new coal mine opened in Cape Breton a couple years ago, but its future is not rosy. It is a difficult operation, and their tunnels now extend several miles out under the ocean to reach the coal seam. The coal is either burned locally in a power plant or loaded on ships at a nearby port, none would move out by rail even if the line was still operating.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
williamsbShortlines became shortlines because they were already marginal lines at best. Some of rhe shady American owners such as Omnitrax, etc didn't help any.
williamsbCape Breton & Central Nova Scotia (American ownership again)
VerMontanan:
Interchange at Hearst would be forest products, minerals, etc. It is a valuable outlet for this traffic as it would save valuable time rather than riding the beat up rails of the old NTR.
When it comes to what CN used to run up the ACR, they used to get some big trains with the usual pulpwood, steel, fuels, mineral etc.
Here is an example: https://youtu.be/ypvgy8sYzmM
One also shouldn't underestimate the value having direct access to border gateway would hold for ONR. Having such an outlet could give them more bargaining power over the class ones, plus the freedom to direct traffic where it would best be interchange. Also, preserving the line would also fit into their mission of serving the north, rather than Bill Gates' pocket book.
CN really went on a mothballing binge this spring with the ACR and BC Rail. Somewhat understandable with all the blockades and other general misfortune.
williamsb:
Most of the shortlines you mentioned were prairie railways. Not actually marginal, just fiercely demarketed by CN and CP.
With regards to the Hudson Bay Railway, it has always been governemt supported, and rightly so. It therefore may not be a relevant comparison. As for SLA, as a border crossing railway with most of their footprint in the US, they have things pretty good with diverse traffic bases. I also wouldn't bring up CBNS as a healthy shortline. They are struggling at the brink of death, with half of their line mothballed. Most of their hope is tied up in a proposed container port.
Shortlines became shortlines because they were already marginal lines at best.
Some of rhe shady American owners such as Omnitrax, etc didn't help any.
What about a lot of other shortlines that took over CN lines such as:
Big Sky RR
Last Mountain RR
Wheatland RR
Battle River RR
Northern Lights RR
Thunder Rail
Keewatin RR
Central Manitoba RR
Southern Rais Coop
Alberta Prairie
Carlton Trail (Omnitrax)
Hudson Bay RR now that Omnitrax is gone
St Lawrence & Atlantic
Cape Breton & Central Nova Scotia (American ownership again)
Mark Meyer
It also doesn't help that CN is being CN and is routing cars over longer, more circuitous routings as an alternative to running the route. Despite this, interchange at Hearst is still doing relatively well.
The problem is that this route has lots of potential that will probably never be realized under CN ownership. The Sault-Hearst passenger train was cancelled, leaving some isolated communities with no link to the outside world. People are still fighting to bring that back. The Agawa Canyon train gets 30,000 riders per year and a new station in Sault Ste. Marie was built for it. If ONR had access to this route, they would almost certainly use it as an alternate route to get their shipments across the border.
But what surprises me most is that CN wants to sell this line when a big new traffic source is on the horizon. That would be sending ferrochrome ore from Nakina to Sault.
Was always about iron ore, lumber, and pulpwood north of Sault Saint Marie.
Algoma Steel is still alive. I imagine they're the primary customer today. But with the Wawa iron mine closed and Weyerhauser shut down over the past 20 years, I imagine carloadings are way down even with the steel mill still very much an active concern.
While visiting my grandmother in Michigan, I had the opportunity to ride the Agawa Canyon train. It was a nice ride, decent scenery, but industry-wise it seemed like a whole lot of nothing.
The Beaverton, Fanno Creek & Bull Mountain Railroad
"Ruby Line Service"
Technically, the line between Hythe, AB and Dawson Creek, BC is in service. It just has a 10 mph speed limit and movements are not permitted without higher authorization.
I don't believe any trains ever operated across this section after CN "restored" it, but I've heard it has been used for one or two MOW equipment moves over the years.
There are several massive wooden trestles on this section, which have received little to no maintenance over the last 25-30 years. As this section of the line has no local traffic, CN and Railnet/Savage decided to route all Grande Prairie area traffic to run via Grande Cache, and leave their remaining Dawson Creek area customers to BC Rail, which of course is now CN as well.
wasdSomething I wonder about is why CN never reopened the line from Grande Prairie to Dawson Creek. They commited to it as part of their winning the bid for BC Rail.
You just answered your own question. They wanted BC Rail and put up the talk to get the bid, once they got the bid they forgot how to walk the talk.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Something I wonder about is why CN never reopened the line from Grande Prairie to Dawson Creek. They commited to it as part of their winning the bid for BC Rail.
If you check out Port Inland in Google Maps you can see the dock. There is a rail spur to the loading area and a couple of other spurs in the mining complex. I would hazard a guess to say that there must be some product interchanged to CN but most likely lake boats handle the most product.
In the current satellite view there is a lake boat at the dock as well as a locomotive with a cut of loaded cars and a cut of empty cars on the adjacent track. Those might be interplant movements. But the connection to the main line is a wye so one has to think some of the lime is going out by rail.
Interesting distinction. I never knew that.
I've seen pictures of GP9s in a distinctive Yellow and White "Great Slave Lake Division" paint schem. I would love to see a big diesel painted in this scheme, just for the halibut. I know railroads need a better reason to do things, but they are doign heritage units right now.
If CN is selling off Algoma Central, and WC trackage, maybe we will get a new AC/WC in the near future?
kgbw49 CN's traffic in the Upper Peninsula is mainly clustered on the west end centered on Gladstone. East of UP Paper in Manistique (thanks for the correction, Backshop) is a large pulp loading operation in Gulliver, a lime and stone loading operation in Port Inland, a pulp loading operation in Caffey, a pulp loading operation in Trout Lake, and that is really about it all the way to Sault St. Marie. At Trout Lake there is a branch to Newberry where there is a pulp loading operatIon and a Louisiana Pacific Hardwoods Plant, and Neenah Paper has a plant in Munising at the end of the branch.
CN's traffic in the Upper Peninsula is mainly clustered on the west end centered on Gladstone.
East of UP Paper in Manistique (thanks for the correction, Backshop) is a large pulp loading operation in Gulliver, a lime and stone loading operation in Port Inland, a pulp loading operation in Caffey, a pulp loading operation in Trout Lake, and that is really about it all the way to Sault St. Marie.
At Trout Lake there is a branch to Newberry where there is a pulp loading operatIon and a Louisiana Pacific Hardwoods Plant, and Neenah Paper has a plant in Munising at the end of the branch.
I know the Port Inland operation was designed as a seperate quarry-to-port line. Does any stone get interchanged with the ex-Soo line? Also I understand the Soo line gets overhead traffic iron ore for Algoma Steel and nickel concentrate for Sudbury.
SD70Dude Welded rail is being laid on the southern half of the former Great Slave Railway, so heavy 6-axle power can reach a new grain terminal at High Level, AB (closer to Yellowknife than Edmonton). This line is currently restricted to 4-axle units, and heavy southbounds sometimes rate 6 or 7 GP40s.
Welded rail is being laid on the southern half of the former Great Slave Railway, so heavy 6-axle power can reach a new grain terminal at High Level, AB (closer to Yellowknife than Edmonton). This line is currently restricted to 4-axle units, and heavy southbounds sometimes rate 6 or 7 GP40s.
Sitting between 58°N Lat and 59°N Lat. If IIRC High Level, AB and the surrounding Peace River region is one of two of the most northerly areas that produce grain in the World. The other being Estonia.
Yes, you are right. Thanks, Backshop! I grew up near Green Bay back in the day when the car ferries still ran, and spent a lot of time four-wheeling on abandoned rights of way back in the day in the UP. I'll correct the post. Thanks again!
kgbw49--I believe that you mean Manistique. Manistee is on the west coast of the lower peninsula.
Michael VomvolakisThe deal with CSX to buy the Massena Line from CSX has fallen through.
It was my understanding that they've appealed the STB conditions attached to the sale and that a final decision was still pending.
wasd As for the ACR, it has its own reasons for importance and potential traffic flows, but as it is now, we are going to have to cross that bridge when we get there.
As for the ACR, it has its own reasons for importance and potential traffic flows, but as it is now, we are going to have to cross that bridge when we get there.
Are there any actual customers between Sault Ste. Marie and Hearst anymore? Does CP still take east traffic for the CN from Thunder Bay and set out at Franz for the CN (ex-Algoma Central) to move to Oba?
Some shortlines and regionals here appear to be doing well judging from volumes. G&W's former CN line from Ste. Rosalie, QC to Portland, ME for example. The Guelph Junction Railway (which is about as short as one can get as a short line at 18 km) also appears to be thriving.. Generally the lines that have access to a well diversified base of business do better than those that rely heavily on only one mill or customer.
VerMontananDepending on the definition of "mothballed:" If the line isn't being used for freight service, and the Huron Central (ex-CP line to Sudbury) bows out on December 18 (unless they get more money), does this really mean that the only rail link to and from the Soo will be up-for-sale ex-Soo Line route from Gladstone via Trout Lake?
At this point, it seems clear that the Huron Central will be operating in 2021, the only questions are what operator and how much funding? Talks with government and stakeholders are underway and the consequences of ending service on that route are well known. As for the ACR, it has its own reasons for importance and potential traffic flows, but as it is now, we are going to have to cross that bridge when we get there.
VerMontananCOVID is changing everything, but FWIW, the Rocky Mountaineer website still shows its "Golden Circle" tour via the ex-BC Rail route via Lillooet (overnighting in Quesnel). Does this mean the end of this service? With the operating profile of the ex-PGE between Squamish and Williams Lake, it's no surprise CN would prefer the route via Kamloops and McBride, but for the same reason, I would doubt they would keep the line through Lillooet as a through route for just the Rocky Mountaineer.....
CN is keeping it. They have said that it isn't going to be abandoned. If they went and did that, they would rank themselves as one of the most hated companies in BC and it may violate the conditions of their lease. From what I understand, the extent of their closure is that they no longer run service between Squamish and Williams Lake so I don't know if that would preclude Rocky Mountaineer from running over the line as long as they paid CN enough. Moreover, improvements in BC's forest industry over time, like today with the US cutting softwood lumber tarrifs may see traffic return, but it certainly doesn't help with the fact that CN half-asses service over the route and just has no interest in it.
I think the overarching theme here is that Canada is just not a good place for shortlines. The maintenance intensive infrastructure and the cyclical nature of raw material markets make it so that a railroad without sufficient resources to weather bad times will crap out throwing their line into chaos. The best example of this is Kelowna Pacific and it led to the loss of a potentially useful freight line. Thankfully, in most other cases, CN stepped in before it was too late. Now CP hasn't done this as much, but you could argue this was the case with the CMQ, though not directed at CMQ specifically, but its predecessors who left the line in terrible shape.
Always get great information from you, SD70Dude! I knew that wheat was grown in Northwest Alberta, but never thought that the quantity was such that it would warrant a "shuttle" grain train facility (a newspaper article says up to 135 cars). Hard to believe the rate would be competitive with facilities on or near the CN main line across the prairies (assuming that the grain would go to Prince Rupert or Vancouver).
BNSF taking over BC Rail would have been interesting, but too-far-flung of an empire for the Vancouver-only connection, that would have been exacerbated by the congested Second Narrows bridge route.
wasd This year, the portion between Sault and Hawk Jct. is mothballed. The line is confirmed as for sale in 2 years once CN's contractual obligations to the Agawa Canyon train are met.
This year, the portion between Sault and Hawk Jct. is mothballed. The line is confirmed as for sale in 2 years once CN's contractual obligations to the Agawa Canyon train are met.
Depending on the definition of "mothballed:" If the line isn't being used for freight service, and the Huron Central (ex-CP line to Sudbury) bows out on December 18 (unless they get more money), does this really mean that the only rail link to and from the Soo will be up-for-sale ex-Soo Line route from Gladstone via Trout Lake?
wasd As of 2020, the major portion between Squamish and Williams Lake is mothballed, only seeing service from the local passenger shuttle for isolated communities. North/south traffic is now being rerouted through Kamloops.
As of 2020, the major portion between Squamish and Williams Lake is mothballed, only seeing service from the local passenger shuttle for isolated communities. North/south traffic is now being rerouted through Kamloops.
COVID is changing everything, but FWIW, the Rocky Mountaineer website still shows its "Golden Circle" tour via the ex-BC Rail route via Lillooet (overnighting in Quesnel). Does this mean the end of this service? With the operating profile of the ex-PGE between Squamish and Williams Lake, it's no surprise CN would prefer the route via Kamloops and McBride, but for the same reason, I would doubt they would keep the line through Lillooet as a through route for just the Rocky Mountaineer.....
As was noted, CN bought many of these lines back after they were run into the ground by the shortline operators. RailAmerica, Savage, Omnitrax and Genesee & Wyoming have done a pretty terrible job at maintaining many of their Canadian operations.
Omnitrax bid on BC Rail too, it may be for the best that they didn't win. BNSF would probably have been a better choice, hindsight being 20/20.
CN has poured billions (with a B) into track rehab across northern Alberta over the last 15 years, and money, welded rail and ballast continues to pour into the muskeg. Traffic has increased steadily on the former Railnet/Savage and Mackenzie Northern lines, but has declined recently on the former Athabasca Northern, which is completely dependent on oilsands traffic.
The Okanagan line is still going steady, but is almost completely dependent on forest products.
To me, it seems that CN doesn't do a good job ensuring that these shortlines can stand on their own. This means that CN eventually has to spend the money to buy back these lines, to make sure the carload traffic coming off of them doesn't simply go away.
CN lines around Ottawa are just barely holding on, and will most likely be sold in the coming years. The deal with CSX to buy the Massena Line from CSX has fallen through. The Algoma Central is going up for sale in 2 years. CN also recently announced that they want to sell 850 miles of ex-WC lines in Wisconsin and Michigan. It was rumored that CN bid on the CMQ, but lost out to CP. CSX is looking like the winner in the "Great Pan Am Sweepstakes," even though many expected CN to snatch up PAR/PAS quickly.
While I complement JJ Ruest for trying to grow CN's traffic, it's quite hard to believe that this is the same railroad that blitzed south by buying up IC, WC, EJ&E, and many others. The way things are looking, the saga will continue...
CN has had a less than perfect relationship with shortline and regional railroads. It is almost funny to see how many times CN spun off or purchased a shortline, only for it to blow up in their face. This post will highlight the most noteable examples of this, starting from east and heading west. Quebec Railway Corperation - Purchased in 2008. Significant parts were threatened with abandonment. Most has been walked back from the brink with a decent outlook for traffic as the Gaspé Railway reopens. Ottawa in limbo, but there are no immediate signs of closure. GEXR/Rail Link - In the face of traffic growth in Southern Ontario, CN pulled the rug out from underneath G&W. CN has put a lot into rehabbing these former operations as G&W is well known for not maintaining their infrastructure. STER - Trillium pulls out. CN works with OSR to provide interim service to portions of the line. Later, OSR's Tillsonburg bridge craps out and then the whole thing is reactivated. New traffic never materializes, OSR pulled out this year, just after CN spends millions on rehab across the line. Algoma Central - Unwanted asset acquired as part of the Wisconsin Central purchase. Receives the usual CN treatment of loving contempt and neglect. This year, the portion between Sault and Hawk Jct. is mothballed. The line is confirmed as for sale in 2 years once CN's contractual obligations to the Agawa Canyon train are met. Northern Alberta lines - CN sells hundreds of miles of these branch lines, Mackenzie Northern, Athabasca Northern and Lakeland Waterways Railway. The short lines do not do well. CN buys them back, presumably for more than they sold them and put 10s of millions into bringing them back in shape. They all remain in operation. BC Rail - The most famous recent example of government corruption involving freight railways. CN got the railway because they were a party donor. They were the worst choice of all the bidders because they already had a presence in the area, thus, they used the purchase of BC Rail to shut out competition. As anticipated, the broke most of their commitments, including reactiving their line to Dawson Creek BC from Alberta. As of 2020, the major portion between Squamish and Williams Lake is mothballed, only seeing service from the local passenger shuttle for isolated communities. North/south traffic is now being rerouted through Kamloops. Kelowna Pacific - In the late 1990s, CN and CP both spun off their Okanagan operations. CP's shortline dropped out first as they lost their biggest customer. CN's Kelowna Pacific continued on to the bitter end when they went bankrupt in 2013. All service was suspended for months until CN took back over. The run between Vernon and Kelowna was abandoned as Tolko said they anticipated the mill there to close within 15 years. It closed this year. A city like Kelowna probably should still have rail service, but the trail people got to it first. The rest was rehabbed and sees a three times weekly turn with 6 axle mainline power.
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