zugmannWasn't unusal for a trailer or 2 of bogies to be included with a roadrailer train.
It's not that you can't arrange a way to get bogies 'distributed' -- the solution I was proposing at one time was to make the bolsters 'linkable' with some kind of restriction on the braking effort, so that they could be daisy-chained to run on the rear of any RoadRailer trailing consist, and be moved 'out of the way' relatively easily at intermediate trop points. The problem is that you have the additional capital and rigmarole to operate with them, vs. ordinary vans or ordinary containers handled with uniform dedicated equipment.
OvermodAFAIK there was never any organized system to get the special 'trucks' around the system to match the demand for compatible trailers. (In my opinion that would not have been difficult ... had the demand for either vans or RailRunners actually developed.)
Wasn't unusal for a trailer or 2 of bogies to be included with a roadrailer train.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannWasn't that how the first roadrailers were?
This had a number of real-world issues aside from 'increased tare weight' -- the polar moment of the axle waaaaay back at the rear was large, the suspension provided was unsuitable for loaded vs. empty running performance on jointed rail, etc. It suffered much the same as Flexi-Van from the need to coordinate 'bogies' with moves if you had any trailers that were not fully compatible with the system (e.g. needed an 'adapter' from the trailer kingpin up to hitch on the trailer ahead)
The version of RoadRailer that was initially adopted in practice increased the tare-weight and loading for the rail compatibility, and stressed van-trailer construction in ways that increased tare weight and construction complexity even more. (Ways that did not make the trailer stronger for straddle lift or other sideloading, but that is a different part of the story).
The 'fix' for this was to use a separate-three-piece-truck arrangement between the trailers, which you're likely more familiar with -- this of course tended to restrict use of the system to particular lanes where the traffic could be reasonably balanced, as AFAIK there was never any organized system to get the special 'trucks' around the system to match the demand for compatible trailers. (In my opinion that would not have been difficult ... had the demand for either vans or RailRunners actually developed.)
In my not-so-humble opinion, no system that depends upon 'add-on' components that do not travel with the vans (or are easily schedulable to be 'where needed as needed') will succeed any better than the current crop of weird expensive sideloading arrangements. And no system that is not comparatively easily adapted to real-world trailer construction will be much of a success especially vs road trains of comparatively-unmodified vans using differentially-braked fifth-wheel dummies.
Part of the fun has been how you accommodate standard-gauge wheel spacing on unflanged track with the usual issues (see Michelines!) with negotiating crossovers, switches, the aforementioned frog circus, etc. with the road wheels. The idea of having the inboard duals be part of the 'suspension' is attractive in principle ... and of course you can find it in places like Brandt units ... but the very rich dossier of experience with Michelines is still every bit applicable to any modern version that tries this to the extent necessary to make the trick work. You may remember the original testing of RoadRailers at Pueblo that got them over 102mph in trail (and I think well over 70 in reverse ... wish I could remember the exact number, but it was printed in Trains at the time, so not hard to find) so the idea is not wack... until you start running for a while and the problems start to crop up.
You will notice that the first alternative does not use only inside flanges for guidance, but inherently uses independent wheels. This is not the 'best' solution (cf. Wickens) for proper single-axle rail guiding ... you actually want the coned tread and solid-axle wheelsets, albeit sized to the expected loads.
And side or quartering wind loading, particularly in gusts, is a major concern. At least some of this benefits greatly from at least semi-active suspension, which implies reasonable power and control. Not cheap! To an extent you can manage this with flexible 'tire shields' on the inner faces of the duals, but at some point you have to ask whether the reduction of rolling resistance (at over 85psi tire pressure, which could be aired-up a la Schneider to arbitrarily large levels in specialized guideway use) and the inability to run any sort of 'super single' tire without modifications is wholly worth all the special tinkering.
Wasn't that how the first roadrailers were?
Convicted One Murphy Siding Or maybe, instead of paving the ROWs, they could just put flanged wheels on the trucks. That actually was my first thought. But we'd lose the flexibility on the last 5 miles. If only there was some way to blur the boundary between rail and asphalt?
Murphy Siding Or maybe, instead of paving the ROWs, they could just put flanged wheels on the trucks.
That actually was my first thought. But we'd lose the flexibility on the last 5 miles.
If only there was some way to blur the boundary between rail and asphalt?
The low-tare alternative would be to use an Evans-type single axle between the two bogie axles, lifting the road wheels slightly clear of anything they might 'hang' on. I would note that with improvements in rail steels to get to 315K HAL we have likely gotten to where an inboard single axle could accommodate any practical van load, if you wanted to keep compatibility with other standard-gauge operations, but for 'dedicated guideways' it might be possible to take a leaf from the Brazilians and use larger power on narrower gauge for these "new" applications ... it's not as if we're going to be running them at 79mph.
No self-guarding frogs, of course. But again, in new construction there are better answers...
NittanyLionYet...here we are in a world of runway incursions, missed taxiways, and inefficiencies in airport throughput. We can't even mount a camera on the nose gear strut and turn airplanes into line following robots.
By definition, most if not all the 'autonomous aircraft' systems being developed inherently conduct ground behavior at least semi-autonomously (e.g. would be directed on the ground by typical commands made in appropriate format, with the actual steering, throttle, reverse, etc. control and some of the tercom recognition being done as for road vehicles). I have a suspicion this could be done for airliners, but the costs would far outweigh any saving of time or expense ... or reduction of liability. Nosewheel steer-by-wire on a new purpose-built 12-seat hybrid aircraft with appropriate sensor fusion is a very different thing from implementing it on an airliner, I think. Certainly for any transient advantage in negotiating the ground environment...
I confess that I'm still bitter over the abandonment of PAR as it came out of the old missile-guidance projects, as I at least think it makes a great deal of 'directed flight' close to the ground a far more assured thing than any onboard instrumentation can be. But instead we get internal director systems that seem to have an interesting number of ways humans can get them to snatch defeat from the jaws of what should be redundant assurance in the kind of walled-garden service environment you mention.
I think that one option would have the railroads relegated to the role of toll collectors over their vast open-access networks in a "relish those scraps that remain" model. Patterned in much the same format as the way American workers once were expected to be consoled by the few good paying port jobs which replaced all the manufacturing jobs that were off-shored.
Murphy SidingOr maybe, instead of paving the ROWs, they could just put flanged wheels on the trucks.
If only there was some way to blurr the boundry between rail and asphalt?
I am continuously amazed by the claims that get made.
Airliners are already huge robots that fly themselves, but they can't even self-taxi. The perfect environment: a completely controlled, closed system populated exclusively by other robots. The total opposite of the wilds of the open road.
Yet...here we are in a world of runway incursions, missed taxiways, and inefficiencies in airport throughput. We can't even mount a camera on the nose gear strut and turn airplanes into line following robots. But, somehow, we're going to deploy tens of millions of self-driving trucks!
tree68 Convicted One Murphy Siding "Autonomous trucks in dedicated lanes"... What kind of magic would be required to get the taxpayers of 48 states to spend a gazillion dollars on expanding their highways to accomodate that? I think at some point he expects the railroads to throw up their hands, accept the inevitable, and pave their right-of-ways. There's an idea - let the trucking companies secure their own ROWs, pave and maintain them, and pay taxes on them....
Convicted One Murphy Siding "Autonomous trucks in dedicated lanes"... What kind of magic would be required to get the taxpayers of 48 states to spend a gazillion dollars on expanding their highways to accomodate that? I think at some point he expects the railroads to throw up their hands, accept the inevitable, and pave their right-of-ways.
Murphy Siding "Autonomous trucks in dedicated lanes"... What kind of magic would be required to get the taxpayers of 48 states to spend a gazillion dollars on expanding their highways to accomodate that?
I think at some point he expects the railroads to throw up their hands, accept the inevitable, and pave their right-of-ways.
There's an idea - let the trucking companies secure their own ROWs, pave and maintain them, and pay taxes on them....
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy Siding"Autonomous trucks in dedicated lanes"... What kind of magic would be required to get the taxpayers of 48 states to spend a gazillion dollars on expanding their highways to accomodate that?
ttrraaffiiccIt appears that I am not the only one who sees the existential threat rail is facing in the very near future.
One thing that is new is the adoption of at least one functional technology for prompt and effective toll billing without 'momentum reduction'. With reliable telemetered load reporting (regularly and randomly checked) it becomes easier to assess a fair share of maintenance overhead for 'road condos' too. And bare-bones recharge facilities make better sense in out-of-the-way locations in many cases.
The key ... as with fusion power generation in 1975 ... is to get the funding and the public support arranged NOW and keep it evolving Lorenzo Coffin-style for the next 40 years to get the arrangement built out comparable to the Interstate system, including the reserved 'windows' of Interstate time for platooning.
Of course when you have a bunch of vans running with distributed motor and dynamic behind a tractor, you have somewhat expensively replicated what a railroad does without sensors or expensive logic, with less running resistance. In far less necessary 'footprint' than a dedicated autonomous-truck road, with somewhat less cost to emplace either continuous running power supply or trickle/intermittent charging... If you no longer amortize the various guideway costs and social disadvantages by allowing passengers -- will the perceived infrastructure be built?
jeffhergert Once I was under 20, 17 mph to be exact, I got the select track option and then the DP operating screen became available and I was able to control the DP engine again.
"Open the pod bay doors, HAL."
"I'm sorry dave, I can't do that."
Well, I guess the highway automation is so far of rail automation. Tonight, my EMS auto throttle kept disengaging itself. Then after a minute or two would become available again. The inbound engineer said he had the same problem. I had to take manual control once when the EMS caused the PTC to freak out when it calculated the EMS was going to blow a 15 mph slow.
Last trip out, I had one where the PTC disengaged. I had EMS auto throttle engaged and when PTC dropped out it did too. At least for the head consist. The DP controls were still locked in auto throttle control with no option to take manual control. To regain PTC a train has to be slowed to under 20 mph and, if all is OK, it regains it's signal and will give a select track option. You don't have to stop, but I was going to since the DP was locked in throttle notch 6. Once I was under 20, 17 mph to be exact, I got the select track option and then the DP operating screen became available and I was able to control the DP engine again.
Yes sir, those techies are sure right when they say automation can take over now.
Jeff
"Autonomous trucks in dedicated lanes"... What kind of magic would be required to get the taxpayers of 48 states to spend a gazillion dollars on expanding their highways to accomodate that? You might as well predict flying autonomous trucks. The odds of it happening are probably about the same.
This part of the article is very telling:
"Once there are autonomous truck-only highways, “there’s no reason we’ll have to be limited to two trailers” that can run throughout the night, he said."
If property rights proponents and environmental groups can stop a pipeline, what is the chance we will be building new highways for only trucks? Or are we going to stop car traffic and allow only trucks on certain highways? Good luck with that.
York1 John
Two key points:
"Although decades away..."
and
"When there are dedicated truck lanes..."
Maybe they're going to turn all those rail-trails into truck roads?
BaltACD How can I believe anything from someone that can't even make a link 'hot'?
How can I believe anything from someone that can't even make a link 'hot'?
That's a good point!
^^^^^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhZba-P7R18
ttrraaffiiccOkay, let's try this again. It appears that I am not the only one who sees the existential threat rail is facing in the very near future. See this article from FreightWaves.com discussing what might be to come: https://www.freightwaves.com/news/could-autonomous-trucks-someday-kill-rail
It appears that I am not the only one who sees the existential threat rail is facing in the very near future. See this article from FreightWaves.com discussing what might be to come:
https://www.freightwaves.com/news/could-autonomous-trucks-someday-kill-rail
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Okay, let's try this again.
BaltACDwhen we got a accumulating snow fall, Dad and I would go to the shopping center with his instructions to me to do 'any dumb thing you can think of' and see what happens
Of course, as with the iPhone touch management, one of the great achievements of the century so far, this had to wait for very fast processors with large available memory running on low power. I'd note that the training process would continue while the vehicle is in service, as there are many anomalous conditions that couldn't be predicted or simulated in either modeled or actual testing.
Autonomous operation -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L33uqInr2rI
Electroliner 1935 Amen to "keep moving" Balt. My dad tought me to go to an empty parking lot after a snow fall and practice putting the car into a skid and getiing out of it.
Amen to "keep moving" Balt. My dad tought me to go to an empty parking lot after a snow fall and practice putting the car into a skid and getiing out of it.
With my birthday being in September and needing to be 'of age' to get a 'Learners Permit', most of my lessons from my father took place in Fall and Winter . There was a shopping center about 2 miles from the house - when we got a accumulating snow fall, Dad and I would go to the shopping center with his instructions to me to do 'any dumb thing you can think of' and see what happens - he also emphasized to turn into the direction the rear end was moving to regain control. After several hours of experience over several snow storms - regaining control became a reflex action.
Went back to the area for my 50th HS Reunion - the shopping center has had 'beautification' added to it and is no longer suitable for such education.
So when my son was in his teens, I had told him he should do that so one night, he went to Pleasant Lane school with is date and did that. Unfortunatly for him, the school had had some incidents that neighbors were on alert for and the police were called. They ran the plates and due to a S of S F up, they came back to some pour smuck in Chicago. They took the plates of the car and let my son go. I had to go to the PD and retrive the plates. He & I always get a kick out of it.
About twenty years ago, I was going home to my mothers in Cincinnati and the snow was coming down and we were between Lebanon IN and Indy. The wife was wanting me to get off I-65 and into a motel and I kept thinking we would run out of it but then I noticed there were NO TRUCKS around me going in either direction! If you have driven I-65 in Indiana, you know it is like the BNSF in Arizona, 10 trucks and more per mile minimum. I got into Indy and holed up.
My desire is to find that guy that at the head of the bockage. You know everyone says, " I could have gone but the line would let me" So get that guy out of the way and everything would be ok. Sure.
And there are some amazing and troubling videos of truck pileups on Youtube.
tree68 Convicted One I recall getting 9" of snow overnight once in Atlanta, and the morning commute was surreal. I doubt most of those people had any experience driving on snow. I was caught in DC one Friday by a snowstorm that essentially closed everything (schools were closing based on the forecast, before a single flake fell). I was greatly amused as I passed a Jeep stuck on a slight hill whilst I was driving a rental Pontiac...
Convicted One I recall getting 9" of snow overnight once in Atlanta, and the morning commute was surreal. I doubt most of those people had any experience driving on snow.
I recall getting 9" of snow overnight once in Atlanta, and the morning commute was surreal. I doubt most of those people had any experience driving on snow.
I was caught in DC one Friday by a snowstorm that essentially closed everything (schools were closing based on the forecast, before a single flake fell).
I was greatly amused as I passed a Jeep stuck on a slight hill whilst I was driving a rental Pontiac...
Lived a number of years and learned to drive in NE Ohio - snow was the norm from December into March. Needless to say I learned to drive in ice and snow. In fact the only 'snow day' I had in High School was when the Supt. of Schools put his vehicle in a ditch trying to get out of his own driveway - he then thought conditions were too bad for the school buses.
The road conditions I learned to drive on in the mid 60's are far different than they are today - especially in metropolitan areas. In the mid 60's in bad weather there were relatively few OTHER CARS on the roads - you could make a mistake and have the room to recover. In today's roads in bad weather in metropolitan areas you are about 3 feet from another vehicle in every direction - make a mistake and hit somebody(s).
In Maryland, the road forces, over the past few years, have taken to 'pretreating' the Interstates and other limited access highways. Before the storm's start the put down a trail of, what I am told, is a Brine Solution that quickly dries on the highway. As you travel the roadways the trail of the Brine Solution is very visible on the highway. In theory it puts salt in place to meet the snow. It does seem to work.
When I was still working, I worked Daylight one weekend day - my route home uses I-695 (Baltimore Beltway) from the Dispatch Center's exit at Hollins Ferry Road to the I-70 interchange in Woodlawn. From approximately Wikins Ave to the US 40 exit is about a 3 mile grade (was real fun to ride my bicycle DOWN when I was a kid and the Beltway was under construction). A snow event happened without prior warning - there was maybe a inch, however, it had been below freezing for a number of days and the roadway was below freezing - the 'heat' from car tires 'liquified' a layer of snow into water which then became ice on the surface of the road. It took the better park of a hour, with very judicious throttle application to get enough 'grip' to climb the grade on the icy road surface - with 'friends' a yard away in every direction. The key is to keep moving - no matter how slow, KEEP MOVING!
BaltACD Leo_Ames tree68 During one recent snow event, the detour turned out to be worse than the closed Interstate. Tow trucks had to be called in to get semis up several slippery hills on the detour - they'd have been better off on the Interstate, or parked. As I recall, that's another thing we can thank our governor for. Governor's have nothing to do with detours that police enact account road conditions that they encounter.
Leo_Ames tree68 During one recent snow event, the detour turned out to be worse than the closed Interstate. Tow trucks had to be called in to get semis up several slippery hills on the detour - they'd have been better off on the Interstate, or parked. As I recall, that's another thing we can thank our governor for.
tree68 During one recent snow event, the detour turned out to be worse than the closed Interstate. Tow trucks had to be called in to get semis up several slippery hills on the detour - they'd have been better off on the Interstate, or parked.
As I recall, that's another thing we can thank our governor for.
Governor's have nothing to do with detours that police enact account road conditions that they encounter.
It was well publicized and was an order from the governor's mansion to the state DOT to ban truckers from interstates, placed in advance before the storm ever hit.
tree68 (schools were closing based on the forecast, before a single flake fell).
I think the biggest problem with it in Atlanta, is the City just had very few resources to deal with such events. I think they owned only about a dozen snow plows, and even those were somebody's idea of a "doomsday contingency". Hit the city bus routes, and call it a day.....
Thereafter I moved to Denver, and experienced exactly the opposite. Got like a foot overnight with another 6-8" predicted throughout the day.....and I really did not want to risk getting "snowed in" at work...so I took a personal day off work.
Boy did I get razzed by my co-workers the following day for being a 'southern damsel'.
The thing that surprised me about Denver is that they even manage to plow secondary and residential streets promptly, after a big snow.
Where I grew up it usually took them 4-5 days to even start plowing residential streets.
Interstate detours are no picnic no matter where they happen. Was going from Jacksonville to Savannah to race - a normal 2 hour trip.
There was some incident North of MP 26 in Georgia. Georgia set up a detour on surface 2 lane roads up to approximately MP 50. There was no 'expediting' of STOP signs or traffic lights with additional police help.
The normal 2 hour trip ended up being 6 hours.
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