Murphy SidingNot according to the article- a press release from the trucking manufacturer, actually. If anything, it sounds like it's taking a lot longer than they had anticipated and that they are currently trying to PR themselves past objections being raised.
Chocolate rations have been increased?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
ttrraaffiicc Another step closer
Another step closer
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I suppose the trucking companies could shift to a "Master Driver" type of operation, where one driver/mechanic in a service truck is responsible for many rigs. But that doesn't address the weather problems.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
From the linked article:
“We have much to learn about how these systems perform in ice and snow, and how operations and infrastructure will adapt to deal with routine emergencies such as flat tires and pre-trip inspections.”
In other words - they aren't even close to real-world operation.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
O.K., I'm gonna go ahead and give my two cents on this thread. In my own personal, honest and humble opinion, large, self-driving trucks should never, never, NEVER be allowed on the Nation's highways unless it can be completely proven that they are 100% safe.
There are too many damn trucks on the roads now! The mere thought that they might be able to make them driverless seems like a total nightmare to me.
Wht they REALLY need to do is to figure out a way, using technology, to get the trucks off the road - or at least get most of 'em, especially the long distance stuff off the road.
That brings me to the preceeding posts concerning railroads. Trains are already on a fixed guideway for cryin' out loud, so to make automnous trains, all that would need to be done is to keep them from running into each other - and address the grade crossing issue.
I think there is already a driverless train running in western Australia. Yes, make them driverless but perhaps still keep one engineer on board who could take control in the event of an emergency.
The other thing they need to do (which many of us wouldn't like) is to impose tolls on the Interstates. They're falling apart anyway and where else is the money supposed to come from?
By leveling progressive tolls according to weight, that could well level the playing field between roads and rail.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
One mantra of driver's training is "watch out for the other guy." Unless the "other guy" is an automated vehicle, too, well...
Just like the current COVID issue, one incident will be enough to pull the whole thing back...
Murphy Siding Euclid I think that automatic trucks and cars are way overpromised. Everybody loves the future because it is full of promise, and nobody wants to be called a Luddite, so future sells. So we are off to colonize Mars in a couple years. All we have to do is create an atmosphere, and some landscaping. I see the trucking industry making a lot of noise and hype about the driveless truck revolution being only a couple years away. And the OP here contends that the automation that will be applied to trucking cannot be applied to trains due that tired arugment about it being impossible to operate unmaned trains over grade crossings. Yes we should worry about that, but not have any problem with platoons of automatic trucks on freeways mixed in with both driverless and human driven cars. So I have long believed that driverless trains is truly the low hanging fruit for the driverless revolution. I think we will see automatic trains being tested in U.S. and Canada within 5 years. I do not expect any road vehicle full automation in practice for at least 50 years unless it is on Mars. I agree. I think you're spot-on. The biggest technological issue to overcome for railroads is the crossings. The biggest technological issue to overcome for the trucking industry is...darned near everything.
Euclid I think that automatic trucks and cars are way overpromised. Everybody loves the future because it is full of promise, and nobody wants to be called a Luddite, so future sells. So we are off to colonize Mars in a couple years. All we have to do is create an atmosphere, and some landscaping. I see the trucking industry making a lot of noise and hype about the driveless truck revolution being only a couple years away. And the OP here contends that the automation that will be applied to trucking cannot be applied to trains due that tired arugment about it being impossible to operate unmaned trains over grade crossings. Yes we should worry about that, but not have any problem with platoons of automatic trucks on freeways mixed in with both driverless and human driven cars. So I have long believed that driverless trains is truly the low hanging fruit for the driverless revolution. I think we will see automatic trains being tested in U.S. and Canada within 5 years. I do not expect any road vehicle full automation in practice for at least 50 years unless it is on Mars.
I think that automatic trucks and cars are way overpromised. Everybody loves the future because it is full of promise, and nobody wants to be called a Luddite, so future sells. So we are off to colonize Mars in a couple years. All we have to do is create an atmosphere, and some landscaping.
I see the trucking industry making a lot of noise and hype about the driveless truck revolution being only a couple years away. And the OP here contends that the automation that will be applied to trucking cannot be applied to trains due that tired arugment about it being impossible to operate unmaned trains over grade crossings. Yes we should worry about that, but not have any problem with platoons of automatic trucks on freeways mixed in with both driverless and human driven cars.
So I have long believed that driverless trains is truly the low hanging fruit for the driverless revolution. I think we will see automatic trains being tested in U.S. and Canada within 5 years. I do not expect any road vehicle full automation in practice for at least 50 years unless it is on Mars.
I agree. I think you're spot-on. The biggest technological issue to overcome for railroads is the crossings. The biggest technological issue to overcome for the trucking industry is...darned near everything.
Yes, I agree. The railroad industry is the number one candidate for automated running. It is inuitively apparent in just the concept of flanged wheels running on rails. Any vehicle that does not have to be steered by automation is miles ahead of the game.
I don't think the grade crossing safety is the showstopper that it is being portrayed as. It is being falsely presented as the engineed being needed to stop the train in time to avoid hitting cars on a crossing. Yet everyone knows that is nearly impossible at any speed that will prove fatal.
We are now on the verge of automatic trains with PTC being the essential kernel of control and Rio Tinto pointing the way. The real showstopper could be the oppostion of the unions. And they are championing the objection that automatic trains will be too dangerous. They are the ones pushing the flawed idea that engineers are needed to make grade crossings safe.
Overall, the oppostion based on driverless trains adding danger directly conflicts with the marketing of driverless cars in which the main benefit cited is that it makes driving safer. The logic is that the artificial intelligence takes away driver error. It is an unstopable argument unless there is a bug in the artificial intelligence. In any case, the rail labor argument is that human intelligence is safer than artificial intelligence. I don't think that is a winning position.
Oddly enough, it seems to me that it is the hype of automatic trucking that is driving the railroad industry to catch up with the hype of the trucking industry, but the railroad indstry does not realize that the trucking revolution is just hype.
So the railroad industry buys the trucking hype, and that forces the railroad industry to convert in order to compete with trucking.
But railroading is also in a much better position to make the automation happen because they own their corridors, and trains are already self-guiding. And also Rio Tinto has shown the way forward.
What the pie in the sky people that think automated trucks and trains will deliver is this. What happens when one of these trucks blows a tire or has a member of the animal community play lets jump in front of this thing and wipes out the front end. Or heaven forbid some poor soul that thinks ending their life is the answer plays walk out in front of it. Just how it will these things act.
NittanyLionNajeeb Halaby (the guy in charge over at Pan Am, one of the launch customers) openly assumed that supersonics would become the standard aircraft for transoceanic flights.
There is still a market for transonic performance; the development of 'quiet' supersonic aerodynamics is one proof of that. But I wouldn't expect it to replace widebodies with geared-high-bypass fan engines for the bulk of commodity air travel... or the various roughly 10-place regional alternatives for shorter connecting services.
charlie hebdo ttrraaffiicc https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/11/12-cn-sees-one-person-crews-autonomous-operation-as-ways-to-compete-with-driverless-trucks Just wanted to post this nugget here for everyone to see. Though the optimism is nice, it is important to note that since labour makes up a more significant portion of trucking's cost, trucking has much more to gain by automating, so even if rail were to automate, it is likely that autonomous trucks will still do significant damage to rail's market share. Not to worry. The experts on here know far more than CN's Mr. Houle!!
ttrraaffiicc https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/11/12-cn-sees-one-person-crews-autonomous-operation-as-ways-to-compete-with-driverless-trucks Just wanted to post this nugget here for everyone to see. Though the optimism is nice, it is important to note that since labour makes up a more significant portion of trucking's cost, trucking has much more to gain by automating, so even if rail were to automate, it is likely that autonomous trucks will still do significant damage to rail's market share.
https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/11/12-cn-sees-one-person-crews-autonomous-operation-as-ways-to-compete-with-driverless-trucks
Just wanted to post this nugget here for everyone to see. Though the optimism is nice, it is important to note that since labour makes up a more significant portion of trucking's cost, trucking has much more to gain by automating, so even if rail were to automate, it is likely that autonomous trucks will still do significant damage to rail's market share.
Not to worry. The experts on here know far more than CN's Mr. Houle!!
Experts and industry wonks can be wrong. Not in that sense of "who would ever need a computer in their home" kind of stuff that gets thrown around.
Sixteen airlines ordered Concordes. Najeeb Halaby (the guy in charge over at Pan Am, one of the launch customers) openly assumed that supersonics would become the standard aircraft for transoceanic flights. He was wrong and only two airlines took deliveries, neither of which was Pan Am. And that was about a technology that actually worked as described in the first place.
Euclid Also very interesting is his point that the regulators in U.S. and Canada will be sold on the safety advantage offered by automatic trains.
Also very interesting is his point that the regulators in U.S. and Canada will be sold on the safety advantage offered by automatic trains.
He is saying a lot in the last 6 paragraphs. Particularly interesting is his statement that automatic trains will be promoted on the safety advantage they provide. The main opposition cites them as being less safe than crewed trains.
ttrraaffiiccJust wanted to post this nugget here for everyone to see. Though the optimism is nice, it is important to note that since labour makes up a more significant portion of trucking's cost, trucking has much more to gain by automating, so even if rail were to automate, it is likely that autonomous trucks will still do significant damage to rail's market share.
Railroad wants to eliminate labor costs.
Yeah, a shocking revelation.
SD70DudeI chuckled while reading about the two computer systems fighting each other.
In Informational Technology terms that is called a "deadly embrace". If the two systems thrash between themselves and never resolve the issue without human intervention. I have seen it happen more than once in programming via overlapping error checking. What happens in the programming instructions is both systems enter a loop checking if an error is resolved and niether can exit it's specific loop as it checks to see if the error is resolved but the other is still in the loop processing so the answer is NO back to both systems on exiting the loop. So they both keep checking each other in an infinite "Are you OK"? loop. Thats just the most common mistake where I have seen it......of course in my case it was outside the railroad industry but same concept. It can also be a "Are you in Control?" loop.
So in Linux or Unix Operating Systems they have a state table for packaged software where it reports its operatings state in a virtual table in memory. Interacting programs check that table for status.........which is another area I have seen it happen. Network or logic issue where a status message of OK is missed......system drifts off into la-la land type of wait status and never proceeds further. Thats different from the "deadly embrace" above because the two systems are not fighting, they are both agreeing they need to stand by for further input......both systems sit there and do nothing. Since the programmer never built in a timeout/reset feature for pausing they wait indefinitely.
Electroliner 1935 jeffhergert Yes sir, those techies are sure right when they say automation can take over now. Jeff Wou;d I be out of order if I wonder if you reported this and what response you got? Have your fellow engineers reported similar events?
jeffhergert Yes sir, those techies are sure right when they say automation can take over now. Jeff
Wou;d I be out of order if I wonder if you reported this and what response you got? Have your fellow engineers reported similar events?
Yes, I reported it directly to our PTC/EMS help desk. We have an electronic feedback form that we fill out at the end of the run. Usually any small issue I report is using this form. Major issues I report directly to the help desk, get a ticket number and then also fill out the feedback form. Most of us get the impression that the feedback form isn't reviewed by those that are supposed to do the reviewing. That's why the major issues get reported directly.
The help desk can be accessed either by contacting the dispatcher or toning up the desk directly by radio.
The response was that they'll log the incident.
Jeff
Locomotive problems get reported to the Diesel Doc. I suspect that computer issues like what Jeff described will often create their own reports or fault logs. A report would certainly have been automatically generated if those issues had actually resulted in a penalty or emergency brake application.
I chuckled while reading about the two computer systems fighting each other.
CN required that PTC must be left enabled on locomotives while in Canada, even though it does not provide any safety benefits here. Its glitches have caused a number of delays, every so often it will trigger a penalty or emergency brake application with no advance warning, or will not let you recover the air after testing the alerter.
I am certain Jeff and his fellow engineers have been reporting all the anomalies that are happening with PTC and DPU. The parties that need to fix things can't if they don't know about them. The being said, it is doubtful that personnel reporting specific problems will ever be advised that 'their' problem has been fixed - one day they will be going about their business as normal and they will find out that the situation that created the prior anomaly doesn't do it this time.
I am sure we have all seen 'update literature' that supposedly discribe the issues that were 'fixed' in the update, unfortunately that literature doesn't specify the new problems that the update has created.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jeffhergertYes sir, those techies are sure right when they say automation can take over now. Jeff
OvermodAnd there is still the same trouble with building trailers that can 'bridge' between ends rather than being fully supported on roadwheel bogie and around kingpin.
Well yeah, you're trying to design a trailer to be as strong as a boxcar. It's going to be a challenge.
OvermodThe problem is that you have the additional capital and rigmarole to operate with them, vs. ordinary vans or ordinary containers handled with uniform dedicated equipment.
I'm no roadrailer booster (quite the opposite dealing with those things...), but I could see why so many promoted them. All you needed were a few paved tracks, some forklifts, and a yard tractor or 2.
There's alwasy going to be imbalances. Baretable trains are a thing, so are chasis being moved en masse.
All the arguments agaisnt roadrailers - I don't know if "difficulty in moving the equipment" is really one of them?
As far as how they were loaded in the trailers? They lifted them up and pushed them in, I'm guessing. And used a chain to pull them out? Note exactly a high-tech operation.
PS. roadrailers had unofficial braking requirements - basically don't touch the air if you didn't have to. They were prone to kicking.
zugmannWasn't unusual for a trailer or 2 of bogies to be included with a roadrailer train.
It's not that you can't arrange a way to get bogies 'distributed' -- the solution I was proposing at one time was to make the bolsters 'linkable' with some kind of restriction on the braking effort, so that they could be daisy-chained to run on the rear of any RoadRailer trailing consist, and be moved 'out of the way' relatively easily at intermediate trop points. The problem is that you have the additional capital and rigmarole to operate with them, vs. ordinary vans or ordinary containers handled with uniform dedicated equipment.
And there is still the same trouble with building trailers that can 'bridge' between ends rather than being fully supported on roadwheel bogie and around kingpin.
Overmod with the added fun involved in trying to lift rather than roll three-piece trucks without deranging them.
All the times I've been at a roadrailer terminal - They move them around with forklifts all the time. After the trailers are removed, they lift them up and toss them to the side. Then they grab them to put them in position to put new trailers on them.
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