tree68There are restrictions on what can be cut in the Adirondack Forest. After the big blowdown in 1995, loggers were prohibited from harvesting that fallen timber. So it lays there, rotting.
Larry, am I correct in assuming that there have been no periods of drought that would be a cause for wild fires like California's where the undergrowth intensified the fires?
A generation ago when some governments rescued a number of failing rail lines, many thought the lines had been saved. Unfortunatly public ownership is sometimes subject to the whims of the public, which leaves those lines back on shakey ground. In New York, the Catskill scenic line has lost some rail; the ASR is now losing rail; and I am worried that the Saratoga & North Creek may become a trifecta.
tree68EDIT: It's not really fair to blame the rails-to-trails crowd for this debacle. IIRC, the official R2T folks actually "disowned" the effort. This was the work of a few rich people in the high peaks area who - yes - want everyone out of their woods.
As I recall the R2T legal council represented the Adirondack trail group.
ROBIN LUETHEAs I recall, those right of ways are open not just to RRs, but also utilities, communications, and whatever the future dreams up. They are dedicated public right of ways, and people in the future can determine how they are used.
This is the Adirondack Park, where having the wrong colored roof can bring wrath upon you.
The Adirondack Park Agency's recent action to add "trail" to the definition of a transportation corridor should tell you that they'll do pretty much anything they want. I would not be the least bit surprised to see the ROW's description as a transportation corridor pulled entirely...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Harrison When we camp at Rollins Pond campground near Tupper Lake I like to walk along the old tracks. (the ones they're tearing out)
Hey, keep walking what's left, you never know, you might find a spike or two, or some track bolts or tie plates as souvenirs!
Flintlock76 Harrison Those are some of my home rails! How dare they do this! I'm getting worked up over this, I'd better go have some tea. There's the lesson Harrison, as a budding railfan videographer try and catch as much as you can when you can. Many veteran raifans will tell you that growing up they naturally assumed that what was would always be, and not just favorite railroads or railfanning spots but other places like burger joints, ice cream stands, bowling alleys, movie theaters, corner bars, hobby shops, man I could go on and on. Some things stay the same, thank goodness, but change is always constant. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much. Sometimes you see it coming, sometimes it sneaks up on you, but it's always there.
Harrison Those are some of my home rails! How dare they do this! I'm getting worked up over this, I'd better go have some tea.
Those are some of my home rails! How dare they do this! I'm getting worked up over this, I'd better go have some tea.
There's the lesson Harrison, as a budding railfan videographer try and catch as much as you can when you can. Many veteran raifans will tell you that growing up they naturally assumed that what was would always be, and not just favorite railroads or railfanning spots but other places like burger joints, ice cream stands, bowling alleys, movie theaters, corner bars, hobby shops, man I could go on and on. Some things stay the same, thank goodness, but change is always constant. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much. Sometimes you see it coming, sometimes it sneaks up on you, but it's always there.
I'm still wishing I went up to Quebec to railfan the CM&Q before it got bought out and the border shut down. Unfortunately with the Adirondack Scenic line, the trains stopped a couple years before I started taking pictures. Fortunately, I was able to ride the train when I was younger (Almost too little to remember, although I do remember certain parts) and I did the railbikes a few years ago. I have (not the greatest) photos my mom took somewhere on one of my hardrives, I'll have to dig them out and post them sometime. When we camp at Rollins Pond campground near Tupper Lake I like to walk along the old tracks. (the ones they're tearing out)
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
ROBIN LUETHE As I recall, those right of ways are open not just to RRs, but also utilities, communications, and whatever the future dreams up. They are dedicated public right of ways, and people in the future can determine how they are used.
As I recall, those right of ways are open not just to RRs, but also utilities, communications, and whatever the future dreams up. They are dedicated public right of ways, and people in the future can determine how they are used.
There is only one trainset in Thendara. We used to do a trip to Big Moose in the morning, which at times included a stop for brunch at the restaurant there.
Lithonia Operator tree68 Sorry - the Lake Placid reference should have been past tense. The Thendara locals run about ten miles out and return. Southbound, the train stops at Otter Lake, where the power is usually run around the train on the siding there before returning north. Going north (11 miles), the same basic thing occurs at Big Moose. Those trips take around an hour and a half. There are no trains running Thendara-Utica-Thendara - Utica is the starting point for the "long distance" trains. It's about a fifty mile trip, one way, taking around two hours. That may drop a bit once the tracks get rehabbed, hopefully allowing us to run 40 MPH for the distance between Remsen (Snow Junction) and Thendara. Utica to Remsen is 30 MPH Thanks man. Do any trains go from Thendara to OL, back past Thendara to Big Moose, then back to Thendara? (I'm guessing not.) From Thendara, are there ever two trains running simultaneously, one doing the north turn, the other the south? Or is there just one trainset based there?
tree68 Sorry - the Lake Placid reference should have been past tense. The Thendara locals run about ten miles out and return. Southbound, the train stops at Otter Lake, where the power is usually run around the train on the siding there before returning north. Going north (11 miles), the same basic thing occurs at Big Moose. Those trips take around an hour and a half. There are no trains running Thendara-Utica-Thendara - Utica is the starting point for the "long distance" trains. It's about a fifty mile trip, one way, taking around two hours. That may drop a bit once the tracks get rehabbed, hopefully allowing us to run 40 MPH for the distance between Remsen (Snow Junction) and Thendara. Utica to Remsen is 30 MPH
Sorry - the Lake Placid reference should have been past tense.
The Thendara locals run about ten miles out and return. Southbound, the train stops at Otter Lake, where the power is usually run around the train on the siding there before returning north. Going north (11 miles), the same basic thing occurs at Big Moose. Those trips take around an hour and a half.
There are no trains running Thendara-Utica-Thendara - Utica is the starting point for the "long distance" trains. It's about a fifty mile trip, one way, taking around two hours. That may drop a bit once the tracks get rehabbed, hopefully allowing us to run 40 MPH for the distance between Remsen (Snow Junction) and Thendara. Utica to Remsen is 30 MPH
Thanks man. Do any trains go from Thendara to OL, back past Thendara to Big Moose, then back to Thendara? (I'm guessing not.)
From Thendara, are there ever two trains running simultaneously, one doing the north turn, the other the south? Or is there just one trainset based there?
In years past, we would sometimes have the Utica - Thendara train continue north to Big Moose while the Thendara local went south to Otter Lake for a couple of trips. The Utica train would start back south after the second Otter Lake train returned to Thendara And cleared up with the dispatcher.
Unsure what the schedule will be once the improvements to Tupper Lake are completed. Even with improved track speeds, it will be difficult to get from Utica to Tupper and back within the 12 hour HOS limits.
P.S. Larry and I have worked together for close to 15 years now.
I know what you mean L-O. In my case however, I was "late to the party" in the railfanning game. I grew up in Northern New Jersey, and this is what I missed:
The Erie-Lackawanna, both the freights and commuter trains still running with the last of the Stilwell cars.
The Lehigh Valley.
The Jersey Central.
The Penn-Central, both on the old NYC West Shore and the old Pennsy lines.
The Reading.
The shaky old Susquehanna.
And oddly enough the Suszy-Q's still around!
Moving to Virgina I did catch the last of the old RF&P and CSX locomotives still in their pre-merger schemes. Very colorful.
Oh well, what are you gonna do?
tree68 Sorry - the Lake Placid reference should have been past tense. The Thendara locals run about ten miles out and return. Southbound, the train stops at Otter Lake, where the power is usually run around the train on the siding there before returning north. Going north (11 miles), the same basic thing occurs at Big Moose. Those trips take around an hour and a half. There are no trains running Thendara-Utica-Thendara - Utica is the starting point for the "long distance" trains. It's about a fifty mile trip, one way, taking around two hours. That may drop a bit once the tracks get rehabbed, hopefully allowing us to run 40 MPH for the distance between Remsen (Snow Junction) and Thendara. Utica to Remsen is 30 MPH.
There are no trains running Thendara-Utica-Thendara - Utica is the starting point for the "long distance" trains. It's about a fifty mile trip, one way, taking around two hours. That may drop a bit once the tracks get rehabbed, hopefully allowing us to run 40 MPH for the distance between Remsen (Snow Junction) and Thendara. Utica to Remsen is 30 MPH.
So right you are, Flint.
When I first came to Maine, MEC was still running freights from Portland to St. Johnsbury VT, via Crawford Notch. I meant to chase one of those trains, or at least just watch/shoot one going through Crawford Notch. Same with the coastal branch from Yarmouth ME to Rockland. I never got around to either one. I really regret that. Both routes had multiple great photo locations.
They were right in my own backyard!!
Larry, you wrote:
I do know that the local trains out of Thendara and between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake have annual riderships in the 10,000 range.
I'm confused. That sounds present-tense. I thought trains between LP and Saranac ended a long time ago. No? If not, when?
When you say "Thendara local train," do you mean Thendara-Utica-Thendara?
Juniata ManShrike: I can't imagine that you believe "money and influence" to be a relatively recent phenomenon. Do you really think the serfs who lived outside the castle walls in medieval times held the same level of wealth and influence as the lords who lived behind the castle walls? In our own history, the wealthy or "landed gentry" made up a disproportionate number of our founding fathers. And, with the possible exception of the FDR years in the White House, when haven't the wealthy and powerful been in the drivers seat in this country? Simply put, it is what it is.
I can't imagine that you believe "money and influence" to be a relatively recent phenomenon. Do you really think the serfs who lived outside the castle walls in medieval times held the same level of wealth and influence as the lords who lived behind the castle walls?
In our own history, the wealthy or "landed gentry" made up a disproportionate number of our founding fathers. And, with the possible exception of the FDR years in the White House, when haven't the wealthy and powerful been in the drivers seat in this country?
Simply put, it is what it is.
What I am seeing is that the 'wealthy and landed gentry' of the present is much more selfish than in bygone times. In bygone times, from my vantage point, the wealthy tried to raise the level of humanity for themselves and the rest of the poplulation. What I am seeing from the wealthy today is 'I got mine - screw you!' While the wealthy are driving the country, right now it is being driven off the road.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Shrike:
I would like to see this line restored. Look at a recent story of how long the transcontinental (CP-UP) would have taken if they had to jump through the EPA and other hoops we have today. I think the article said that we would still be waiting on the golden spike ceremony.
wasd Shrike Arghast There was a time when the trail people were actually about 'corridor preservation,' but it has long since passed. We need to wake up and realize that R-t-T and their affiliates are an insidious enemy of low-traffic and tourist railroads across the country. These people no longer want cooperation - they want to sieze and destroy. In fact, I would argue that they are the single greatest threat to shortline service in America today. I haven't seen this point be stated better anywhere else. If you want to see the worst of the worst examples of this, look at Vancouver Island. A corridor with huge potential for commuter and intercity travel. One with good potential for freight. Provincially owned but sat dormant for lack of maintenance while billions are blown on transit project with poor value per mile in Vancouver and this enitre 200 mile line could be up and running for just a few hundred million. All while the highway on the island is chronically overcrowded. Yet people are getting on their soapboxes to rip it up and make it a trail, even though trails have been built in many places beside the line. Thankfully, it is probable the railway on Vancouver Island will be saved. But this is just bad. Why make a 34 mile long trail? Who does that help? Who will use it? A handful of people per day? The tourist trains on this line could have had a much bigger economic impact, but now it is lost.
Shrike Arghast There was a time when the trail people were actually about 'corridor preservation,' but it has long since passed. We need to wake up and realize that R-t-T and their affiliates are an insidious enemy of low-traffic and tourist railroads across the country. These people no longer want cooperation - they want to sieze and destroy. In fact, I would argue that they are the single greatest threat to shortline service in America today.
I haven't seen this point be stated better anywhere else. If you want to see the worst of the worst examples of this, look at Vancouver Island. A corridor with huge potential for commuter and intercity travel. One with good potential for freight. Provincially owned but sat dormant for lack of maintenance while billions are blown on transit project with poor value per mile in Vancouver and this enitre 200 mile line could be up and running for just a few hundred million. All while the highway on the island is chronically overcrowded. Yet people are getting on their soapboxes to rip it up and make it a trail, even though trails have been built in many places beside the line. Thankfully, it is probable the railway on Vancouver Island will be saved.
But this is just bad. Why make a 34 mile long trail? Who does that help? Who will use it? A handful of people per day? The tourist trains on this line could have had a much bigger economic impact, but now it is lost.
It goes beyond this, though: it's that, in our society, people with money and influence almost always win. It used to be that when a case was brought to trial, the result was (generally) considered settled law (at least for a time) following the verdict. There was still a winner and a loser, and the loser didn't have to in any way happy about that, but the case had established precedent, and people needed to live with that.
In the last 20 or so years, the trend has shifted dramatically to an effort to re-litigate everything almost immediately. Did you just get beaten on your pet project? Or voted down by the body politick? Well, fear not, friend! That wasn't a defeat, you see - you've actually just eroded their will to resist! All that's needed now is to find a friendlier judge, or to slightly reword your proposed massive upheaval of the status quo (and, of course, pour tons more capital into the effort, while schmoozing it up with your influential pals), and soon the brass pendulum of "blind" justice will be swinging back your way!'
And, lest we forget, when the other side loses, they can't do the same thing because they're POOR! (And you've probably also succeeded in branding them as malcontents, so you can throw all kinds of slander in their direction should they deign to continue to stand for the beliefs that were - just 5 minutes ago - the law of the land). What happened in Lake Placid isn't some isolated incident - it's another glaring example of an unfolding trend that, IMO, is undermining western civilization: that it's only a 'republic' (with all those much halooed checks and balances) so long as you're impoverished, but if you're wealthy, connected, carefree and special, it can be bought into any form of dictatorship you desire.
About the only possible traffic on line would be logging (limited at best) and tourism. Pretty much all other industries that could use rail disappeared years ago. The possibility of new industry is zero - even tourist facilities face uphill battles.
I don't have recent ridership numbers. I do know that the local trains out of Thendara and between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake have annual riderships in the 10,000 range. The merchants in both areas were glad for the trains and the business that they brought to them.
Reach back in history 40 years - in the summer of 1980 the Adirondack Railway, the outfit that ran the trains for the Olympics, logged 16,000 boardings. This means that if someone rode from Utica to Lake Placid, disembarked from the train, then reboarded the train to return to Utica it was listed as 2 boardings. All tourist lines (and the airlines, for that matter) count ridership the same way.
That means that in June, July and for two week or so in August, 8,000 people rode the trains. That's 100 per day, on average.
There's no reason to believe that ridership UT-LP would be any different today. Partnering with local businesses, especially lodging and restaurants, would be be beneficial to all involved.
The downtown businesses in Old Forge always want to know how riders are on the Utica trains - especially in the fall when a single train might bring as many as 500 people into town for the 4 hour layover. Restaurants, especially, will put on extra help. This could have been true in Saranac Lake and Lake Placid.
New York could have embraced the railroad as a valuable resource - bringing hundreds of people into the destinations with no more impact than a little Diesel smoke. Instead, a few monied folks have destroyed it.
And yes, it is an ongoing battle. There are those who want the entire railroad lifted, all the way to Remsen. Thankfully, it appears that everything south of Tupper Lake is safe for now - but we must keep our eyes open.
MidlandMikeWhy are they ripping up the rails now if they are still designing the trail and will not start construction until 2022 ?
Once something is ripped up - it is 1000 times harder to restore it should someone's mind get changed.
Shrike ArghastThere was a time when the trail people were actually about 'corridor preservation,' but it has long since passed. We need to wake up and realize that R-t-T and their affiliates are an insidious enemy of low-traffic and tourist railroads across the country. These people no longer want cooperation - they want to sieze and destroy. In fact, I would argue that they are the single greatest threat to shortline service in America today.
Why are they ripping up the rails now if they are still designing the trail and will not start construction until 2022 ?
Shrike Arghast just so they can restore a tiny percentage of land to the wilderness to suit some ultimately-unachievable ideal/make upstate New York their private park
Oh, I can see your side of it all. Meaning that I understand why you feel the way you do. And it is very seldom that I see the wealthy as "heroic".
But you do a very good job, as well, of depicting modern values as a blight of sorts. Mankind tends to be very selfish in persuit of what is popularly deemed to be "progress".
Mother Nature takes a beating so often as the diciples of capitalism relentlessly build their temples. I find it comforting to see Harvey Hustlebuck take one on the chin every now and then.
Shrike Arghast Convicted One Shrike Arghast Though I have always felt it to be true, of late I’ve become almost hyper-aware about how morally bankrupt we have become as a country – we pour billions into stadiums and cruise liners; spend our days vapidly snapping selfies and crafting inane memes, Possibly it is exactly that element that the wealthy land interests seek to expel from the environment? --- It's really a matter of priorities. Those having a priority to spoil and to exploit , IMHO, being the true villains I think a bunch of rich people who own second houses in Lake Placid (and can jet up from NYC whenever they please), taking multiple legal shots at a tourist railroad until they obliterate it, just so they can restore a tiny percentage of land to the wilderness to suit some ultimately-unachievable ideal/make upstate New York their private park is pretty much the definition of villainy.
Convicted One Shrike Arghast Though I have always felt it to be true, of late I’ve become almost hyper-aware about how morally bankrupt we have become as a country – we pour billions into stadiums and cruise liners; spend our days vapidly snapping selfies and crafting inane memes, Possibly it is exactly that element that the wealthy land interests seek to expel from the environment? --- It's really a matter of priorities. Those having a priority to spoil and to exploit , IMHO, being the true villains
Shrike Arghast Though I have always felt it to be true, of late I’ve become almost hyper-aware about how morally bankrupt we have become as a country – we pour billions into stadiums and cruise liners; spend our days vapidly snapping selfies and crafting inane memes,
Possibly it is exactly that element that the wealthy land interests seek to expel from the environment?
---
It's really a matter of priorities. Those having a priority to spoil and to exploit , IMHO, being the true villains
I think a bunch of rich people who own second houses in Lake Placid (and can jet up from NYC whenever they please), taking multiple legal shots at a tourist railroad until they obliterate it, just so they can restore a tiny percentage of land to the wilderness to suit some ultimately-unachievable ideal/make upstate New York their private park is pretty much the definition of villainy.
On the Wilderness front, maybe NYS should buy those 'fat cat' properties so a True Wildeness can be recreated. I seem to recall that the Skyline Drive and the properties on the slopes and valleys it traverses was the product of a 'back to wilderness' program during the Great Depression.
This 'PROBLEM' there in Upstate New York, has been a discussion subject for some time, on this Forum....I am sure Larry (tree68) is beginning to see 'this as a fight that has no end'.
When the NYC RR essentially walked away (abandoned in place?)L the adjacent property owners, seemed to essentially holding their breath, hoping it would just go away(?)...The Lake Placid Olympics of 1980 were mostly remembered for the 'win' by the American Hockey team over the Russians. After they were over the isolated community settled back into a small town business as usual environment.
The ASR RR has battled with the line, and the last part of the ROW into Lake Placid for some time. The State of NY has been aapparently, a poor steward of the area, allowing local's to remove tracks and ROW; in favor of all sorts of 'fly by night developing' schemes.
Seems as if the R-2-T crowd has only plans to eliminate the ASRR, and its ROW in favor of any use, other than the rails. Recently, snowfall in the area has been less than needed for snow related activities(?).
The State of New York seems hell-bent on turning the area of Lake Placid into a 'Lake Flacid'. While creating only a destination for motoring tourists; even then, a destination with a road network of only secondary, quality roads?
Shrike ArghastThough I have always felt it to be true, of late I’ve become almost hyper-aware about how morally bankrupt we have become as a country – we pour billions into stadiums and cruise liners; spend our days vapidly snapping selfies and crafting inane memes,
I don't have a horse in the race either way in the Lake Placid thing. But as I have gotten older I have come to appreciate unspoiled wilderness more and more.
Whenever I go out to some natural paradise, I labor long towards leaving it just as I found it. But there are elements out there who seem to thrill upon "leaving their mark", no matter how vulgar that might be. Since you really can't distinguish the good stewards from the abusive types up front, sometimes prohibition is the most expedient solution.
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