MidlandMike Dirt trails may be maintained by volunteers, but this trail is to be paved and ADA compliant. In my state, Michigan, the big rail-trails are linear state parks.
Dirt trails may be maintained by volunteers, but this trail is to be paved and ADA compliant. In my state, Michigan, the big rail-trails are linear state parks.
I'm not sure it's to be paved - stone dust seems to be the go-to option.
A trail I like in Milford, MI is paved, and is all on land owned by either the village or the Metro Parks Authority.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Most trails are maintained by volunteers, even the big, well known ones like the Appalachian, North Country, Finger Lakes, Superior, etc. The government chips in with grants and help with big, expensive projects, but the day-to-day maintenance is done by local volunteers who "adopt" a section of trail.
mvlandswOnce the rails and ties are removed what is needed to make it a trail? Maybe run a dozer through to level the ballast.
The multi-use trail involves considerably more grading, probably with a host of ADA-compliant features -- I would like to refer you to the NYSDOT plan for that phase of development, but everyone has been careful to keep a big red TBA on all the relevant aspects. It does not appear to me at present that the state is going to commit much if any money to that conversion, leaving ARTA and the local communities who favored pulling the rails to cover both the initial improvement and the presumably volunteer labor to keep it maintained for multi-use.
Once the rails and ties are removed what is needed to make it a trail? Maybe run a dozer through to level the ballast.
charlie hebdoIs there or could there be a sufficient demand for such an undertaking? Running a museum line with only an old diesel wouldn't seem to cut it.
During the summer of 1980, well after the Olympics, the Adirondack Railway logged 16,000 boardings of people who simply wanted to ride the line from Utica to Lake Placid and back. There were actually two round trips a day.
The demand is there - if NYS chose to support and promote the line instead of pleasing a few rich people.
With 40MPH speeds the line is closer to mainline passenger service than any tourist line other than the Grand Canyon RR. And it runs through a crown jewel of NY - the Adirondack park.
Overmod Fred M Cain So, what's the latest then? How far has the dismantling proceeded? They started, very appropriately, by lifting rails to disconnect the 34-mile stretch from the 'general system of transportation', even though that meant they couldn't use railborne equipment -- at least, nonstranded rail equipment -- to take the removed material directly to where it will be used for the rebuilding of the middle portion). My understanding is that the removal work is proceeding toward Lake Placid, and I suspect that people both here and on RyPN can give you an accurate idea of how far it's gotten by a particular date. There may be a page on the NYSDOT web site somewhere that describes the progress on the appropriate contract; I haven't bothered to look. Is there any hope at all of stopping it? No. I'm inclined to note this down in the 'people get the democracy they deserve' category: there was little likelihood of getting the millions needed to restore the 34 miles to passenger quality, even if the towns and Lake Placid itself cared, but the 'compromise' will greatly increase both the service range and the quality of the scenic operations, long before the general-purpose trail appears. In my opinion, and it's only an opinion, should title to parts of the route not revert and it remains a valid 'transportation corridor', restoring it to acceptable-quality rail service would require little that a good TLM setup couldn't implement quickly and positively (see the recent work in Connecticut for an example). I personally don't see this practically happening.
Fred M Cain So, what's the latest then? How far has the dismantling proceeded?
They started, very appropriately, by lifting rails to disconnect the 34-mile stretch from the 'general system of transportation', even though that meant they couldn't use railborne equipment -- at least, nonstranded rail equipment -- to take the removed material directly to where it will be used for the rebuilding of the middle portion). My understanding is that the removal work is proceeding toward Lake Placid, and I suspect that people both here and on RyPN can give you an accurate idea of how far it's gotten by a particular date. There may be a page on the NYSDOT web site somewhere that describes the progress on the appropriate contract; I haven't bothered to look.
Is there any hope at all of stopping it?
No.
I'm inclined to note this down in the 'people get the democracy they deserve' category: there was little likelihood of getting the millions needed to restore the 34 miles to passenger quality, even if the towns and Lake Placid itself cared, but the 'compromise' will greatly increase both the service range and the quality of the scenic operations, long before the general-purpose trail appears.
In my opinion, and it's only an opinion, should title to parts of the route not revert and it remains a valid 'transportation corridor', restoring it to acceptable-quality rail service would require little that a good TLM setup couldn't implement quickly and positively (see the recent work in Connecticut for an example). I personally don't see this practically happening.
Is there or could there be a sufficient demand for such an undertaking?
Running a museum line with only an old diesel wouldn't seem to cut it.
Overmod I personally don't see this practically happening.
I don't believe the trail will happen, either. The forever wild/rich people couldn't get the snowmobilers, etc, out of their woods until the rails were gone. Now that the rails are gone, it'll be back to wilderness before you know it.
The trail isn't supposed to be complete until 2024 - plenty of time to get its construction blocked completely.
Fred M CainSo, what's the latest then? How far has the dismantling proceeded?
Overmode,
So, what's the latest then? How far has the dismantling proceeded? Is there any hope at all of stopping it?
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Fred M CainWell, in this particular case, it looks like the State had title to the ROW and the rail line. So, that leaves little room for legal maneuvering.
It would be entirely different if the State had seized the property from a private enterprise and torn the track out but that doesn't appear to be the case here.
Since it was state-owned, that should've left room for residents to petition their state reps and urge them to keep the line for future rail service. Sadly, it doesn't appear that that happened.
Shrike Arghast https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Work-begins-on-track-removal-for-34-mile-15668846.php <SNIP> In fact, I would argue that they are the single greatest threat to shortline service in America today.
https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Work-begins-on-track-removal-for-34-mile-15668846.php
<SNIP>
In fact, I would argue that they are the single greatest threat to shortline service in America today.
Lithonia OperatorAre you guys now called Adirondack Railroad again (without the "Scenic")?
Yep - a little rebranding. New herald, too.
Larry, thanks for linking that schedule. It was very interseting to see that.
Are you guys now called Adirondack Railroad again (without the "Scenic")?
Flintlock76 Overmod The big draw was supposed to be the Winter Olympics. When Carter had us boycott them, that 'failed to thrive'. Actually, it was the 1980 Moscow Summer Olympics Carter boycotted, due to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. And the US wasn't the only country involved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Summer_Olympics_boycott#:~:text=These%20included%20Japan%20and%20West,also%20boycotted%20the%20Games%20entirely. Needless to say, the Russians were at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics, or there wouldn't have been the "Miracle on Ice."
Overmod The big draw was supposed to be the Winter Olympics. When Carter had us boycott them, that 'failed to thrive'.
Actually, it was the 1980 Moscow Summer Olympics Carter boycotted, due to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. And the US wasn't the only country involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Summer_Olympics_boycott#:~:text=These%20included%20Japan%20and%20West,also%20boycotted%20the%20Games%20entirely.
Needless to say, the Russians were at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics, or there wouldn't have been the "Miracle on Ice."
Correct.
OvermodThe big draw was supposed to be the Winter Olympics. When Carter had us boycott them, that 'failed to thrive'.
Lithonia Operator I believe I read that in the early 80s the ASR (or AR, or whatever it was called then) operated all the way from Utica to Lake Placid, maybe for a couple of years.
I believe I read that in the early 80s the ASR (or AR, or whatever it was called then) operated all the way from Utica to Lake Placid, maybe for a couple of years.
To my knowledge, the Olympic iteration of the railroad operated through the Olympics (which is why it was resurrected) through mid-August of 1980, at which time it was shut down due to safety concerns, among others. I was not involved, so can't speak to specifics - all I have is second-hand knowledge, although I do know some people who were involved in that operation.
Lithonia OperatorWhat was the schedule like then? Did any trains go the entire length? If so, was there a northbound and a southbound, with a meet somewhere? It seems like too long a trip for a train to be a turn.
It seems like too long a trip for a train to be a turn.
The 1980 operation ran not one, but two trains. The morning trains met at Tupper Lake, the afternoon trains met at Thendara.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ottomatic77/4905424293/
Lithonia OperatorWas there sufficient parking in Utica for people to use the trains more for "transportation" than as an excursion. I'm thinking like someone takes the train to LP, or somewhere short of that, stays a week in a lodge or cabin, then returns by train to Utica. Was it possible or practical to use the train(s) that way? It seems like that would have been an awesome way to have a vacation. Maybe take two weeks, and stay at a variety of places.
I don't think parking was an issue. While the linked schedule shows a number of stops, I don't know how often any of them were used.
The 8AM departure from Utica allowed a return the same day, arriving back at Utica at around 10PM. It was likely the most popular trip. The same was true of Lake Placid Departures - you could do a round trip in one day.
Lithonia OperatorI believe I read that in the early 80s the ASR (or AR, or whatever it was called then) operated all the way from Utica to Lake Placid, maybe for a couple of years.
mudchickenThe railroad, when it quit being a through route, could not cover the taxes, much less the maintenance costs. Throw in the poor subgrade up there between O'Neill and Valentine and what evolved is pretty explainable. Nebkota could not even survive on a shoestring. Northern Nebraska can rival Wyoming in being "empty". (Just drive along NE-2/ US-20 to see)
You're right. The railroad could not make it hauling minor amounts of grain once a year.
Those little towns all welcomed the trail once the railroad was gone. They really thought it would bring at least a small amount of traffic to their towns. I don't think the trail has even remotely lived up to some of their expectations. I know there were many ranchers who had hoped to get some of that trail land.
I love that drive up Highway 2 through the Sandhills. Many people think it's boring, but I think the prairie is a neat thing to see.
York1 John
What was the schedule like then? Did any trains go the entire length? If so, was there a northbound and a southbound, with a meet somewhere?
Was there sufficient parking in Utica for people to use the trains more for "transportation" than as an excursion. I'm thinking like someone takes the train to LP, or somewhere short of that, stays a week in a lodge or cabin, then returns by train to Utica. Was it possible or practical to use the train(s) that way? It seems like that would have been an awesome way to have a vacation. Maybe take two weeks, and stay at a variety of places.
York1 I realize this is off-topic ... I just read that the head of the California forestry dept. said there are over 1 million dead trees still standing in parts of California, waiting to burn. Prescribed burns and regulated lumbering would have saved much of California from the fires they have today. (Again, that's not my take -- that's what the head of their own forestry service said.) My own state has the issue of trails vs. rails. Across the northern part of the state, the Cowboy Trail follows the old Chicago and North Western Railroad. The issue is that many of the little towns used the railroad to ship grain. It must all now be trucked. Of course, the problem there was not the trail, but the railroad abandoning the line.
I realize this is off-topic ...
I just read that the head of the California forestry dept. said there are over 1 million dead trees still standing in parts of California, waiting to burn.
Prescribed burns and regulated lumbering would have saved much of California from the fires they have today. (Again, that's not my take -- that's what the head of their own forestry service said.)
My own state has the issue of trails vs. rails. Across the northern part of the state, the Cowboy Trail follows the old Chicago and North Western Railroad. The issue is that many of the little towns used the railroad to ship grain. It must all now be trucked. Of course, the problem there was not the trail, but the railroad abandoning the line.
Northern Nebraska can rival Wyoming in being "empty". (Just drive along NE-2/ US-20 to see)
The beetle killed trees in Colorado along with super dense fuel on the ground for generations have fed the two major record breaking fires here in north Central Colorado. (Agree with you that some of the environmental actions actually caused bigger headaches and saved nothing ... "Forest Management" is a real/viable thing the do-nothings have ruined)
The beetle killed trees in Colorado along with super dense fuel on the ground for generations have fed the two major record breaking fires here in north Central Colorado.
There have been major fires in the forest in the past. If you drive up to Old Forge from Utica, you pass a historical marker noting a fire that I think ran 25,000 acres. For reference, there are 640 acres in a square mile. (Think about that sometime when you hear how large some of those western fires get.)
While we do get the occasional larger fires (one near Old Forge this spring burned for several days), they don't often run away for the reasons previously noted.
That's not to say that the whole forever wild thing might not come back to bite someone one of these days. But - that's part of the natural forest cycle.
Remember that some western conifers actually require fire to properly germinate.
The Adirondack Railroad has assisted with firefighting efforts around the ROW a couple of times.
One of the Adirondack fire trains was stationed at Ne-Ha-Sa-Ne, location of Webb's great camp and private station on the railroad.
tree68I would not be the least bit surprised to see the ROW's description as a transportation corridor pulled entirely...
There was enough risk of fire in the Adirondacks at the time the line was in full traffic that the NYC used oil-burning locomotives at considerable trouble and expense. There is less, but nonnegligible, risk using diesels and modern brakeshoes.
If I presume to speak for Larry just a bit, California-style wildfires in that part of the country are really more the exception than the rule. The foliage is mostly hard-to-ignite hardwoods, the climate tends to be wetter, and the topography mitigates against it as well.
The most common areas in the Northeast that I'm familiar with that are subject to wildfires or forest fires are New Jersey's Pine Barrens and the Hackensack Meadows just to the west of New York City, both are foliated with easy to ignite and burn softwoods with a high resin content (the Pine Barrens) or in the case of the Meadows tall, thick reeds that dry out quickly during low-rain periods.
I'm not saying forest fires can't happen in Larry's neck of the woods, but from what I know they don't happen very often.
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