That's just the point, Larry. More grade separations because it's sensible. But on many somewhat more lightly used lines (not HSR, though on some lines the speed limits are over 10 kmh) in Germany, they have level crossings with gates. I've seen many in my travels, both from the trains and from the road.
charlie hebdoYears ago in one of these "car attacks train" discussions I recall wondering why it is that these incidents seem to happen more frequently here than in Europe, even though the density/frequency of trains there is greater.
I suspect the answer to that lies at least partly with the physical separation of the railroads from the highways. I believe such separation is much more common in Europe. Here in the states ROWs are wide open, and so are the crossings. We consider things like four quadrant gates to be the exception rather than the rule.
And there are just that many more crossings and vehicles.
Perhaps someone more familiar with European operations can address that.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Euclid charlie hebdo Bucky: Didn't you realize years ago that on here these crossing incidents (some members don't even like the term accident or that a train struck a car) are always the fault of vehicle drivers or pedestrians? I do seem to recall something like that. Maybe it is time to trot out the Darwin Award. And saying a train struck a car is unfair because it makes it sound like the train started a fight by taking the first punch. I think what must have happened in this case is that the landing gear wheels got stuck in a flangeway.
charlie hebdo Bucky: Didn't you realize years ago that on here these crossing incidents (some members don't even like the term accident or that a train struck a car) are always the fault of vehicle drivers or pedestrians?
Bucky: Didn't you realize years ago that on here these crossing incidents (some members don't even like the term accident or that a train struck a car) are always the fault of vehicle drivers or pedestrians?
I do seem to recall something like that. Maybe it is time to trot out the Darwin Award. And saying a train struck a car is unfair because it makes it sound like the train started a fight by taking the first punch. I think what must have happened in this case is that the landing gear wheels got stuck in a flangeway.
Years ago in one of these "car attacks train" discussions I recall wondering why it is that these incidents seem to happen more frequently here than in Europe, even though the density/frequency of trains there is greater. Drivers are more careless/inattentive here? Somehow that seems unlikely, yet folks keep insisting the solution is to change our drivers. Good luck with that.
EuclidOkay, so nobody did anything negligent. It was just a crossing presenting a unique situation. So the mishap was just an act of God, kind of like an earthquake or comet strike?
I believe someone posted that the driver was trying to detour around some construction, which is why he used this crossing. He may have driven considerable miles to get to that point, without incident.
If the landing gear was, in fact, completely retracted, then yes, this one goes into the unlucky coincidence file.
As a cop told me once, sometimes they really are accidents.
tree68 Euclid Okay, so then it is illegal to drive the rig with landing gear not fully raised. Is that correct? I'm sure Georgia V&T law is available on-line. I would not assume it to be illegal to drive with the landing gear not fully raised. And we don't know that it wasn't fully raised. That particular crossing presented a unique situation, as we have discussed.
Euclid Okay, so then it is illegal to drive the rig with landing gear not fully raised. Is that correct?
I'm sure Georgia V&T law is available on-line.
I would not assume it to be illegal to drive with the landing gear not fully raised.
And we don't know that it wasn't fully raised. That particular crossing presented a unique situation, as we have discussed.
Okay, so nobody did anything negligent. It was just a crossing presenting a unique situation. So the mishap was just an act of God, kind of like an earthquake or comet strike?
EuclidOkay, so then it is illegal to drive the rig with landing gear not fully raised. Is that correct?
blue streak 1 Euclid So was the landing gear not supposed to be down during transit? Or can it routinely be left down during transit unless there is a specific reason to have it raised, as was the case with this crossing? Any idiot who does not retract the landing gear all the way ------------ ?! The problem in the state of Georgia is local police can only cite truck drivers for traffic violations. Any violation for equipment or loading can only be cited by state patrol or DOT. Do not know if that is true in any other states ?
Euclid So was the landing gear not supposed to be down during transit? Or can it routinely be left down during transit unless there is a specific reason to have it raised, as was the case with this crossing?
So was the landing gear not supposed to be down during transit? Or can it routinely be left down during transit unless there is a specific reason to have it raised, as was the case with this crossing?
Any idiot who does not retract the landing gear all the way ------------ ?!
The problem in the state of Georgia is local police can only cite truck drivers for traffic violations. Any violation for equipment or loading can only be cited by state patrol or DOT. Do not know if that is true in any other states ?
Okay, so then it is illegal to drive the rig with landing gear not fully raised. Is that correct?
The only time that I've seen landing gear not lowered involves the use of yard tractors with elevating fifth wheels to move trailers.
tree68 I believe it was discussed, and images in the original post linked news story appear to show that the landing legs were in contact with the road.
I believe it was discussed, and images in the original post linked news story appear to show that the landing legs were in contact with the road.
Landing gear of trailers can be a real problem. Maintenance of them is spotty and not greased. Drivers are lazy in retracting them all the way. Certain tractors and placement of the gear how far from the 5th wheel is another 2 problems. It can often take a piece of pipe for leverage on the handlle to operate retraction.
EuclidSo to review, what is the actual clear explanation of what in fact caused the truck to stall on the crossing? And where in this thread has that explanation been given?
The trailer was not high centered as we usually think of it (low slung trailer bottoming out) but the effect was the same.
So to review, what is the actual clear explanation of what in fact caused the truck to stall on the crossing? And where in this thread has that explanation been given?
Erik_MagMakes me wonder if the best approach is very strict enforcement of "Do Not Stop on RR Tracks" laws. Along those lines would be very hefty fines for trucks getting stuck on the tracks. I'd also wonder if a yellow caution light to warn of a train arriving that would come on 10 seconds or more before the red flashers and gates are activated.
I'd also wonder if a yellow caution light to warn of a train arriving that would come on 10 seconds or more before the red flashers and gates are activated.
And then a blue light special 10 seconds before the yellow light and lime green lights 10 seconds before the blue ad nauseum through the rainbow of colors. [/sarcasm]
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Makes me wonder if the best approach is very strict enforcement of "Do Not Stop on RR Tracks" laws. Along those lines would be very hefty fines for trucks getting stuck on the tracks.
Murphy SidingLarry- Something doesn't look right about that picture. Why is the fireman standing that close to a fireball?
Aside from the tires, there's little explosion hazard there. It's little more than a big bonfire of burning plastic and foam.
Besides, something we try to do is a "360" assessment of the incident. He's taking a look at what needs to be done, and how. He's also in full turnouts and on air.
tree68 The aftermath, from the Pendelton/Fall Creek Fire Department Facebook Page:
The aftermath, from the Pendelton/Fall Creek Fire Department Facebook Page:
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Overmod dpeltier I said "stuck" on the tracks, not "stopped" on the tracks. That's a distinction without a difference, the way I used the term. Almost by definition if a vehicle is 'stopped' for more than a reasonable time, or for no apparent reason related to traffic, it would be considered 'stuck' as far as sending advance warning to approaching trains.
dpeltier I said "stuck" on the tracks, not "stopped" on the tracks.
That's a distinction without a difference, the way I used the term. Almost by definition if a vehicle is 'stopped' for more than a reasonable time, or for no apparent reason related to traffic, it would be considered 'stuck' as far as sending advance warning to approaching trains.
Only if you don't care about the effect of false positives on train traffic, or if you assume that most vehicles stopped for no reason on the tracks will in fact still be there when a train arrives. I don't know if there is data to support this assumption. Anecdotally, I have seen vehicles stopped on railroad tracks that eventually moved off the tracks with no assistance (and without the benefit of an interconnected traffic light), so I don't know why you would think they don't exist.
Overmod Certainly my experience with machine vision, including the improvements being made for autonomous vehicles, makes your supposed issues with 'lighting and weather' obsolescent at best.
Certainly my experience with machine vision, including the improvements being made for autonomous vehicles, makes your supposed issues with 'lighting and weather' obsolescent at best.
They're not "my" supposed issues, they are issues that have been identified by the literature (see e.g. Medina, Chitturi, and Benekohal, "Effects of fog, snow, and rain on video detection systems at intersections", Transportation Letters, 2:1, 1-12, 2013). And regardless of whether they are being addressed by newer technology, they largely explain why the only technologies currently used for vehicle detection are rail crossings are loops and radar. As I said at the outset, some day there will probably be technology that would allow one to detect stuck vehicles at a crossing, and then deployment will depend mostlu on cost and benefit. But we're not there today.
Dan
charlie hebdo Overmod dpeltier I said "stuck" on the tracks, not "stopped" on the tracks. That's a distinction without a difference, the way I used the term. Almost by definition if a vehicle is 'stopped' for more than a reasonable time, or for no apparent reason related to traffic, it would be considered 'stuck' as far as sending advance warning to approaching trains. Certainly my experience with machine vision, including the improvements being made for autonomous vehicles, makes your supposed issues with 'lighting and weather' obsolescent at best. The point of the camera-based system is precisely that it has alternative uses for crossing enforcement and monitoring which 'radar' or 'inductive loops' don't even remotely approximate, the former also involving RF issues, the latter involving cost to position and calibrate and then to keep maintained and powered. I trust that you have developed an appropriate bridge from crossing circuits to 'third-party' notification systems. Please describe the approach and protocols in detail. It's good to see some folks realizing there is a problem and there must be better ways to deal with it.
Overmod dpeltier I said "stuck" on the tracks, not "stopped" on the tracks. That's a distinction without a difference, the way I used the term. Almost by definition if a vehicle is 'stopped' for more than a reasonable time, or for no apparent reason related to traffic, it would be considered 'stuck' as far as sending advance warning to approaching trains. Certainly my experience with machine vision, including the improvements being made for autonomous vehicles, makes your supposed issues with 'lighting and weather' obsolescent at best. The point of the camera-based system is precisely that it has alternative uses for crossing enforcement and monitoring which 'radar' or 'inductive loops' don't even remotely approximate, the former also involving RF issues, the latter involving cost to position and calibrate and then to keep maintained and powered. I trust that you have developed an appropriate bridge from crossing circuits to 'third-party' notification systems. Please describe the approach and protocols in detail.
Certainly my experience with machine vision, including the improvements being made for autonomous vehicles, makes your supposed issues with 'lighting and weather' obsolescent at best. The point of the camera-based system is precisely that it has alternative uses for crossing enforcement and monitoring which 'radar' or 'inductive loops' don't even remotely approximate, the former also involving RF issues, the latter involving cost to position and calibrate and then to keep maintained and powered.
I trust that you have developed an appropriate bridge from crossing circuits to 'third-party' notification systems. Please describe the approach and protocols in detail.
It's good to see some folks realizing there is a problem and there must be better ways to deal with it.
I proposed a pretty straight forward solution earlier, maybe in the other thread about the car, smarter humans and better grade crossing construction standards, again, one being considerably easier to effect than the other.
You get more of what you subsidize and less of what you tax. Maybe we should reconsider what we subsidize? And what we tax?
Sheldon
dpeltierI said "stuck" on the tracks, not "stopped" on the tracks.
Perhaps the Pinto Principle applies here...
UlrichSurely bringing technology to bear on the problem of having trucks hung up on crossings without Billy Bumstead having to manually inspect the crossing is within our grasp in 2020..
Such crossing fouling technoloy is certainly within our grasp, and I suspect it will be implemented within ten years. There has been a lot of information published about it being planned. It just monitors each crossing to detect vehicles that are not clear and have been fouling for a period of time longer than the time required for a typical traffic congestion event.
Crossing vehicle stalling is a less likely danger than drivers trying to beat the train, but stalling still occurs often and is worth addressing. Stalling is easier to detect than a driver's intent to take a risk by running the crossing signals.
In most cases of vehicles stalled on the track, there is ample time to stop any train if they are warned when the stalling first occurs. So there is no need for braking with an emergency application.
Stalling is probably more likely with trucks than with passenger vehicles. There is more risk to the train crew in hitting a truck than with passenger vehicles. So the railroad company has an interest in preventing collisions with stalled vehicles.
1976.
People who were born in 1976 aren't old, but if you're a man you're likely balding and what hair is left is turning gray. And if you're a women your child bearing years are now behind you. In July of 1976 Time magazine ran a beautiful cover photo of Mars taken from Viking 1 (and then viking 2).. a spacecraft that was landed remotely on the surface of the planet. In 1976! Inside the same issue were numerous color photos.. all of them breathtaking to say the least. What am I leading to? My point is we could do all of this over 44 years ago! And that was long AFTER we'd landed a probe on balmy Venus! Surely bringing technology to bear on the problem of having trucks hung up on crossings without Billy Bumstead having to manually inspect each crossing is within our grasp in 2020..
dpeltierNow, maybe you meant to ask whether it is technologically possible to detect if a vehicle is STUCK on the tracks unable to move, and warn trains acordingly?
CSX recently installed what is reported to be an occupancy detector for the diamond at Deshler. An unassuming device, it sits largely unnoticed in the SW quadrant of the diamond, a few feet from both rails.
Because of the amount of interconnected metal in a diamond, a conventional track circuit is useless there. I think I saw it offered that this was mostly for hi-railers. Most trains will occupy the blocks on both sides.
Nonetheless - If one couples an occupancy detector such as that with the crossing circuit you then get a quarter mile (more or less) of warning that there's something on the crossing when the gates go down.
In this case, however, it appears that the truck fouling the crossing was probably visible way before that, and most trains will require well more than that quarter mile to stop. Such a system would have to also use the track circuits to provide advance warning.
It would be tough to tie that all together so it provided advance warning, but didn't create false warnings.
We also have the problem of crossings without automatic protection at all - more than a few pieces of farm equipment have "bought the farm" at such crossings.
In the end, it goes back to the vehicle operator, the same as the incident in Ashland.
Overmod dpeltier Now, maybe you meant to ask whether it is technologically possible to detect if a vehicle is STUCK on the tracks unable to move, and warn trains acordingly? I think the answer is "No"... The answer, technically, is "yes" and the pieces of the solution have been known for some time. The system of cameras used for crossing enforcement can also be used, with comparatively simple machine-vision, to detect vehicles stopped for more than a given time; only slight added capacity would detect attempts to 'free' a stuck vehicle by rocking, or gesticulations made by a driver, or in theory even coded hand signs or recognition of language including agreed key words or phrases
dpeltier Now, maybe you meant to ask whether it is technologically possible to detect if a vehicle is STUCK on the tracks unable to move, and warn trains acordingly? I think the answer is "No"...
The answer, technically, is "yes" and the pieces of the solution have been known for some time. The system of cameras used for crossing enforcement can also be used, with comparatively simple machine-vision, to detect vehicles stopped for more than a given time; only slight added capacity would detect attempts to 'free' a stuck vehicle by rocking, or gesticulations made by a driver, or in theory even coded hand signs or recognition of language including agreed key words or phrases
I said "stuck" on the tracks, not "stopped" on the tracks. Vehicles stop on the tracks all the time without getting stuck. If you assume that a vehicle stopped on the tracks for more than n seconds is stuck, then n is going to have to be very high to get to an acceptable level of false positives. High enough you're still going to risk some collisions. Certainly high enough that someone could just call the dang ENS number and stop trains that way!
As to the other clues you suggest using, I would just point out that these behaviors are all the exact opposite of what someone should be doing in these circumstances, and that many motorists are smart enough not to try them.
Also - if you had to implement such a system today, it would not be based on machine vision. That has been tested for the related application of detecting vehicles occupying a crossing in a 4-quad gate system and found to be too sensitive to lighting and weather conditions. Inductor loops have been the standard for a while now, with a newer radar-based system also in use in some places. (These systems are used for Exit Gate Management; the "exit gates" on the far side of the crossing in the direction of travel don't descend if there's a vehicle occupying the crossing. Note that these systems don't attempt to differentiate between "stopped" and "stuck" vehicles.)
If I recall correctly, either FHWA or OLI had what they considered to be a significant campaign promoting awareness of ENS signs just last year. It doesn't appear to have gotten through to everyone, unfortunately. Maybe something different is needed terms of signage or education, but that's going to produce a far better result than any system we have in the present day for autonomously differentiating between a stopped vehicle and a stuck vehicle.
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