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How common is a wye?

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Posted by Gramp on Sunday, June 28, 2020 10:10 PM

St. Louis Union Station had multitrack double wyes into the terminal. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, June 29, 2020 3:13 AM

And very impressive, and can someone please post a photo?

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, June 29, 2020 7:23 AM

daveklepper

And very impressive, and can someone please post a photo?

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Posted by steve-in-kville on Monday, June 29, 2020 8:00 AM
I recently discovered Manhiem, Pa has a wye. Not sure the last time it was used.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, June 29, 2020 8:07 AM

blue streak 1

In Deggesry's Bristol, Va - Tn  there was once 6 wyes in various locations. They are all gone which will make any Amtrak service to Bristol needing to add one back.   Deg can you name them all ?  Sorry meant if you could locate them ?

 

Sorry, I will have to confess that I never wandered around, looking at the tracks. I was aware of the connection with the Appalaachia Sivision, and there was a crossing of State Street a little west of downtown.

Incidentally, the second track from the station was called the "Tennessee," and I did not find out why. There may have been some connection with the ET&V RR (the original name of the line to Knoxville). Perhaps the track right at the station was not the original track?

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Posted by MMLDelete on Monday, June 29, 2020 8:08 AM

Just the sheer number of tracks at St. Louis Union Station then is amazing!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, June 29, 2020 9:50 AM

I found an interesting history of a once well-used wye.

It was on the New Jersey & New York RR, operated by the Erie.  The wye was located in Nanuet NY, and the article tells the story of the New City branch with an 1890 topographical map showing the wye, and the now also abandoned Piermont branch. 

The line's still operated by New Jersey Transit rail as the Pascack Valley line as far as Suffern but the wye's long gone.

http://www.rcrcc.com/history/ncstation/NJNYRR.htm  

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, June 29, 2020 9:54 AM

Let us not forget Mott Haven.  Much of the yard has gone, but I believe the wye is still there, and is used by trains from New Haven and Stamford directly to Yankee Stadium.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 29, 2020 10:28 AM

daveklepper

Let us not forget Mott Haven.  Much of the yard has gone, but I believe the wye is still there, and is used by trains from New Haven and Stamford directly to Yankee Stadium.

 

Ride through the plant in 2017 and judge what remains -- I believe starting around 18:00:

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, June 29, 2020 11:03 AM

Lithonia Operator

To me a wye, by definition, is a place where a train can be turned. I don't think Harpers Ferry is a wye, but I really don't know.

Now I'm not really sure why the term evolved as "wye," because the "Y" is only part of it; you need the third leg. It seems like they would have come to be known as "triangles."

 

I think they started being called "wyes" because the turnout for the tail track is usually an equilateral turnout.  That is, no straight and diverging routes and looks like a "Y" from an aerial view.

However, there are wyes that don't have a Y shaped turnout in any of the switches.  They are still called wyes for operational purposes.

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Posted by cv_acr on Monday, June 29, 2020 11:31 AM

York1

I know very little about actual railroad terms.

At Gibbon, Nebraska, the UP mainline from Omaha meets the mainline from Kansas City.

Is this considered a 'wye'?

 

 

 

YES

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Posted by cv_acr on Monday, June 29, 2020 11:37 AM

Enzoamps

Wye versus turntable ;  you can turn a whole train on a wye.

 

Depends on how long the tail track is.

Wyes are common at junctions, but also exist on their own for turning equipment. If the railroad has the space, a couple of switches are less expensive than a turntable pit and bridge - especially in areas where the pit filling with snow can be an issue. In this case, a wye provided for a purposes of turning equipment might have a tail that's only long enough for a set of engines (but still easy to turn something much larger than a turntable).

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Posted by cv_acr on Monday, June 29, 2020 11:39 AM

Flintlock76

If it's the junction point between two main lines I'd hesitate to call it a wye, but it certainly looks like it could be used as one. 

The third connecting track turning it into a triangle arrangement 100% makes it a wye. It doesn't really matter if the three tracks are main lines or secondary tracks.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, June 29, 2020 11:52 AM

Thanks, Overemod.  Did not know the catenary had been removed Woodlawn - Mt. Vernon East.  I had heard there were good reasons for both 3rd rail and wire in this section, but apparently MN decided the maintenance expense was not worth it.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 29, 2020 1:01 PM

daveklepper
Did not know the catenary had been removed Woodlawn - Mt. Vernon East.  I had heard there were goof reasons for both 3rd rail and wire in this section, but apparently MN decided the maintenance expense was not worth it.

Came as a great surprise to me, too, but it almost HAS to be cheaper to support third rail in that stretch, and I don't think either the reason or the funds are there for constant-tension conversion on that south end.

More interesting, to me, is how the transition to catenary seems to be happening.  I'm used to seeing variable-tension cat require substantial anchor bridging at the end of a span.  Here it seems just to appear at a regular bridge, with the first few wire spans with trolley at an angle section-to-section, suggesting that for some distance this is a low-current 'voltage-only' reference, and mechanical landing zone for the pans.  Even so, I didn't see what I thought would be full span anchoring before the third rail stopped.

Also looked for artifacts of the power changeover and did not see or hear them.  That in itself is pretty impressive, even though I know the art was perfected in Europe decades ago.

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Posted by NittanyLion on Monday, June 29, 2020 2:13 PM

Enzoamps

Washington Union Station has a big wye.  Passenger trains pull in, then they can back through the wye to turn for return trip.   SOme trains used to wye on the way in, finally backing into the terminal.

There is a wye at WUS, but it is entirely on Amtrak property.  They don't use the CSX/ex-B&O mainline to turn the trains.

When the Pennsylvanian terminates in Pittsburgh (or a Capitol Limited is truncated), Amtrak runs a few miles east to Highland Park to turn the train there.

And, back in the hinterlands I grew up in, the Allegheny Valley interchanges with the Buffalo & Pittsburgh in an otherwise non-descript place called Eidenau

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Posted by smayham on Monday, June 29, 2020 2:32 PM

As it turns out, I just a few days ago rode the TVRM Missionary Ridge Local, behind ex-Sou #4501.  On one end of the run (East Chattanooga), they turn the loco on a turntable (fun to watch).  On the other end, Grand Junction, they turn the loco on a wye (also fun to watch).  The one "point" of the wye which abuts Cromwell Rd appears to have a spring switch, which makes sense, as they always traverse the wye in a clockwise direction.  https://goo.gl/maps/7q1SbYCorVLkm84P6

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, June 29, 2020 2:37 PM

NittanyLion
 
Enzoamps

Washington Union Station has a big wye.  Passenger trains pull in, then they can back through the wye to turn for return trip.   SOme trains used to wye on the way in, finally backing into the terminal. 

There is a wye at WUS, but it is entirely on Amtrak property.  They don't use the CSX/ex-B&O mainline to turn the trains.

When the Pennsylvanian terminates in Pittsburgh (or a Capitol Limited is truncated), Amtrak runs a few miles east to Highland Park to turn the train there.

And, back in the hinterlands I grew up in, the Allegheny Valley interchanges with the Buffalo & Pittsburgh in an otherwise non-descript place called Eidenau

The wye at WUS is totally CSX's, as the hypotonuse is owned by CSX.  WUS property line is at the clearnace point of the terminal lead switches at Control Points QN Tower and F Tower.  The Capitol Limited enters and leaves WUS from the QN Tower side.  MARC commuter trains from the West use QN Tower entry point and the trains from Baltimore use the F Tower entry point.  As a rule of thumb - CSX crews are not qualified beyond the clearance point of the lead switches at QN Tower and F Tower.

In the B&O passenger days - most all trains arriving WUS backed in using one leg or the other as necessary.

Back in 1967 when the P&W Subdivision was B&O territory I worked the Operator's position at Eidenau.  At the time the P&W Sub was all double track from Pittsburgh to New Castle.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 29, 2020 4:52 PM

NittanyLion
When the Pennsylvanian terminates in Pittsburgh (or a Capitol Limited is truncated), Amtrak runs a few miles east to Highland Park to turn the train there.

This reminds me that there was a wye at Harrisburg where consists were regularly turned with remarkable speed; I don't know if cab cars have supplanted that practice.

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Posted by mudchicken on Monday, June 29, 2020 5:05 PM

Wyes- common

Loops - Less common

Turntables & Transfer Tables - dying breed.

How much real estate do you have? (restrictive geometry can kill any turning facility) and how much do you really need it? (or is this another operating supervisor bubba on an ego trip?)

Last three wyes I placed were to replace turntables. Last loop track for turning engines also turned branchline trains...with engine storing capacity for sets of locomotives (two to four to a spur for blue flag simplicity.)

 

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, June 29, 2020 8:18 PM

On my first trip from Chicago to Washington (in 1968), we backed into the station. On my last few trips, we have stopped on one of the lower level tracks--once, a train for Florida was waiting there for us, to take passengers who were transferring.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, June 29, 2020 9:22 PM

Deggesty
On my first trip from Chicago to Washington (in 1968), we backed into the station. On my last few trips, we have stopped on one of the lower level tracks--once, a train for Florida was waiting there for us, to take passengers who were transferring.

In 1968 the B&O was operating your train.  After May 1, 1971 Amtrak has been operating your train as well as WUS.

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Posted by zugmann on Monday, June 29, 2020 9:25 PM

mudchicken
(or is this another operating supervisor bubba on an ego trip?)

Running LHF sucks.  Esp now with the PTC screen that isn't in a spot that makes it easy to use LHF. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Monday, June 29, 2020 11:17 PM

mudchicken

Wyes- common

How much real estate do you have? (restrictive geometry can kill any turning facility) and how much do you really need it? (or is this another operating supervisor bubba on an ego trip?)

This brings up a question: I've seen scissors wye's proposed as a space saving measure in model railroad layouts, but wonder if any ahd been built in 12"=1' scale? Note "scissors wye" refers to where the two legs to the stub end cross over each other to reduce width of the wye.

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Posted by Boyd on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 12:43 AM

If a locomotive could talk would it say wye me? 

Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.

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Posted by ORNHOO on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 12:51 AM

York1

I know very little about actual railroad terms.

At Gibbon, Nebraska, the UP mainline from Omaha meets the mainline from Kansas City.

Is this considered a 'wye'?

 

 

In the flatlands of Nebraska and Kansas it is not uncommon for industrial spur lines to join the main line with a wye, for example Hastings NE (South Technical), Kearney NE (airport),and Hiawatha KS (Ag Partners Co-Op). For examples of mainline junctions using wyes you could look at Atchison KS and Fairbury NE (in front of the Rock Island Depot).

Closer to (my) home; Portland and Western's (out of service) McMinnville Branch joins the main line at a wye in Durham OR, and the Chelatchie Prairie Rilroad uses a wye in dowtown Yacolt WA.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 1:39 AM

I'm pretty shure all the catenary is AC, 12,500V, 60 Hz.  If it is still 25 Hz 11.000V, it will be changred soon.

Consant-tension catenary requires a pulley or pulleys and a weight or spring at one end only, and I suspect that end in this case is at the first catenary break, where to catenaries are side-by-side by a few iniches.  Generally, the breaks are paired, fixed-with-fixed end, and moving with moving end.  Why there is a section of the old catenary still in place is a good question, but it seem a very short secdtion.

In the classic era, passengers in New Haven trains did notice the power change at Woodlawn when traveling from, but not to, GCT.  West-Southbound, the coasting was down-hill, but the reverse was uphill coasting, and the temporary drop in speed was noticable,  particularly in MUs, where the power-off time was much longer.

Possiibly current technology has each car making the transition independently, but in any case the transition now is on a level right-of-way.

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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 8:25 AM

Erik_Mag

 

 
mudchicken

Wyes- common

How much real estate do you have? (restrictive geometry can kill any turning facility) and how much do you really need it? (or is this another operating supervisor bubba on an ego trip?)

 

 

This brings up a question: I've seen scissors wye's proposed as a space saving measure in model railroad layouts, but wonder if any ahd been built in 12"=1' scale? Note "scissors wye" refers to where the two legs to the stub end cross over each other to reduce width of the wye.

 

The expense of a crossing frog kills that idea before it gets started. The highway bubbas call those "braided" intersections/interchanges. Additionally, supporting the crossing frog becomes problematic at a skew angle that light.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by cv_acr on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 8:31 AM

Erik_Mag
mudchicken

Wyes- common

How much real estate do you have? (restrictive geometry can kill any turning facility) and how much do you really need it? (or is this another operating supervisor bubba on an ego trip?)

 

This brings up a question: I've seen scissors wye's proposed as a space saving measure in model railroad layouts, but wonder if any ahd been built in 12"=1' scale? Note "scissors wye" refers to where the two legs to the stub end cross over each other to reduce width of the wye.

 

Similar to this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-n6sImwaJo

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