Electroliner 1935 And did you distill anything that would be interesting? Wink, Wink.
And did you distill anything that would be interesting? Wink, Wink.
In junior college chemistry, one of our "projects" (for a grade) was to ferment, then distill, alcohol. Most students used commercial fruit juices that were not full of preservatives. I was lucky enough to have an uncle who maintained part of an estate that included an apple orchard. It being fall, I was able to acquire from him a quantity of freshly squeezed cider - absolutely no preservatives.
As I recall, we had to distill it and make measurements. It's been a "few" years...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Electroliner 1935 Deggesty I did run the still. And did you distill anything that would be interesting? Wink, Wink.
Deggesty I did run the still.
Edit: last night, I remembered.the proper term for the containers: carboy. I am glad that I never had to carry one up to the organic or physical chemistry labs, or down to the freshman chemistry lab (no elevator in the building).
Johnny
DeggestyI did run the still.
CSSHEGEWISCH It probably sounded like an amusing prank to him at the time.
It probably sounded like an amusing prank to him at the time.
Actually, the task was rather boring; very few students came to the stockroom for anything. I had the responsibility my last semester in college, and I do not remember that anyone came for anything. I did run the still.
Speaking of "things that go boom." One afternoon, I was working in the physical chemistry lab and heard a "Boom" down the hall. My first thought was that the boys in the organic lab had had a spectacular reaction with ether. I went down the hall to learn just what had been done--and found that the stockroom boy (not a physical science major) had been putting this and that into a 4" by 8" glass jar, and had just added either an excellent oxidizer or an easily reduced compound (or the other way around; I do not remember just what the last additive was--63+ years ago), had turned away to add something else, and as he turned back he caught the jar all the way across his arms and chest. About four years later, he told me that every now and then another piece of glass would work its way out.
Paul of Covington ... I decided I would get a bigger reaction if I collected both the hydrogen and oxygen together in the same jar. The proportions should be perfect. There was not much difference from the hydrogen only reaction
And if you think about it, you'll see why. Exactly the same gas reaction in 'air' (with the oxygen) just four times as much heat per olive-jar volume, without the 78% diatomic nitrogen to soak up the heat. Call it less than 4x, oxygen what? about 8% denser, but not much detonation propagation in a pickle jar. Set it off in a long tube, though, and you might see more difference.
The dramatic things happen when you have liquid H2 and O2 combining in something like the SSME.
The 'danger' is if you light off the hydrogen in an enclosed space to get the effect of extremely short heat release and shock, instead of rippling or whistling deflagration. When this happens in a storage battery it can project hot acid in surprising quantity to a surprising distance, which is not a good or fun thing even if you like things that make you go BOOM.
OvermodSee if you can find a slow-motion picture of a balloon being popped with a pin or projectile with Schlieren imaging that shows motion of the enclosed gas as the envelope tears from the point of failure and the tension in the envelope relaxes.
That's pretty much what I envision - In fact, I found a video that shows exactly that. Of note is that the contents of the balloon remain fairly intact, at least for a short time - long enough for those contents to ignite if within the proper explosive range (LEL -> UEL). It would likely be a "whoosh," not a pop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0BiM9R9plg
I would opine that if the cause of the failure of the envelope (balloon) was the burning string instead of a needle, the result would be as already reported.
A weather balloon can hold upwards of 100 cubic feet of gas - imagine that lighting off right over your head...
Electroliner 1935 I've considered that if the gas was mixed with air, it would be more likely to explode, but getting the mix right would be difficult. And more hazardus to the filler.
I've considered that if the gas was mixed with air, it would be more likely to explode, but getting the mix right would be difficult. And more hazardus to the filler.
In my teens I experimented with electrolysis, using a cobbled-up power supply. One example I remember is copper coating a silver quarter. (Why? I don't know.) Anyway, I also tried collecting hydrogen in a small olive jar then holding it to a flame and watching it go "poof". Then I decided I would get a bigger reaction if I collected both the hydrogen and oxygen together in the same jar. The proportions should be perfect. There was not much difference from the hydrogen only reaction. Of course, with greater volume, I might not be here today.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
tree68When balloons fail, they tend to snap back to their original size, which would leave just a mass of the gas in the air. Without ignition, the gas would just dissipate. With ignition, the gas would light off, pretty much all at once, causing a nice flash.
Tree, you're not thinking about what causes the 'bang' you hear when a balloon pops. See if you can find a slow-motion picture of a balloon being popped with a pin or projectile with Schlieren imaging that shows motion of the enclosed gas as the envelope tears from the point of failure and the tension in the envelope relaxes. Consider the effect produced if a non-tearing hole were opened in the envelope ... for example, if the neck of the balloon were pinched as it rose to altitude and then released ... and what the subsequent motion of the gas and turbulent mixing to critical stoich might be.
You may not want to 'pre-carburete' the gas in the balloon as the lifting will be much slower with an admixture of air or, better for the fire effects, oxygen. Of course warming the balloon may enhance its lifting to "ignition height" and you could do this with an electrical element if desired...
I'm assuming that the fire coming up the string is what causes the balloon to pop, and therefore that effective flame holding is present around some portion of the gas cloud that starts evolving through the tearing hole. What I'd expect to see is a period of edge combustion until you get a critical mixture and then a quick deflagration (the gas not being physically enclosed, which I recall being a requirement for actual detonation in methane/natural gas explosions just as it is with black powder). Remember that by the time the flame climbs the long string it will be very tall and luminous as more and more lights off in the effective convection plume, so there may be a sheet of luminous flame (by definition good both as a radiant source and relatively long-lived flameholder geometry) around a considerable arc of the balloon's side when initial burnthrough commences.
MUCH more fun ensues if you load a critical mixture into the balloon and provide an electrically-fired spark gap (with multivibrator coil spark, not make and break or single cap discharge) or better yet a squib charge. If the initial ignition kernel is close to the center of the balloon you might actually get to detonation pressure before the envelope actually ruptures ...
Then of course are all the fun things you can do with FAE payloads, with liquid or powder materials. Here the squib charge is 'cold' so the turbulent mixing of the evolving gas cloud gets substantially advanced before the ignition is commanded; this is true even if some or all the effective oxidizer is in the charge mix already. Consider two small explosive charges of one of the faster-burning explosives, in a binary device with stabilized liquid acetylene and liquid ozone...
When balloons fail, they tend to snap back to their original size, which would leave just a mass of the gas in the air. Without ignition, the gas would just dissipate. With ignition, the gas would light off, pretty much all at once, causing a nice flash.
Electroliner 1935The flame would rise up the string until it reached the balloon and POW, a nice explosion in the sky.
i see no part of this that wouldn't work, although the effect of the flame 'popping' the balloon might produce more a 'foof' jet of flame than an explosion. You might have to treat the string with something to control the burning, or arrange carefully for the flame to 'compromise' the wall of the balloon and persist long enough that the bang of the burst doesn't snuff out the actual ignition.
Ah, Methane. Years ago a man I worked with told me a story about something he had done as a young man. I always wanted to try it but never did. Basically, he told me he had inflated balloons with natural gas to where they would rise, put a long string on them, light the end of the string and release them at night. The flame would rise up the string until it reached the baloon and POW, a nice explosion in the sky. Could this be done or was he pulling my leg?
Erik_MagThis inspired an even more outlandish idea... Methane is lighter than air and thus could be used as a lifting gas in Zeppelins...
Not to take away from the original thinking... but it's been thought about. Methane requires about 4x the volume of helium at STP for equivalent displacement lift, and of course it can be heated nicely as desired to fairly significant over pressure without having to be vented. Its flammability and explosive limits are still highly important (and its energy content in a critical-mixture explosion high) but it is nowhere near the devil to handle that hydrogen is.
The thing that has really changed the assisted-lift LTA picture is the impending helium shortage. He quite simply is too precious to waste in party balloons or P-791s* any more, and hydrogen is a public-relations nonstarter for LTA anywhere near the actual public... I looked into the differential density of some combinations of CH4 with changes in temperature in an inflation-insulated envelope but don't remember the results now (and have no rubber bible and am too lazy to go look the data up; I used -70F as a likely ambient temperature at altitude, which may or may not be relevant to the lower-altitude operations that some of the modern LTA schemes envision. I encourage someone like Erik who knows his stuff to flesh this out again.)
While we are on unusual uses for light hydrocarbons, I still remember the Mexican butane proposal ... to use it as working fluid in ORC heat engines for distributed power, not as a fuel.
*There will be some who don't recognize what this is. To put it in perspective for those people, here is the official account with the corporate-anthem background music replaced with something more appropriate.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7SkvM_Q5oQM
Among the numerous magazine titles which roll off the press and out the bindery door where I work each day is Native Business. Last year, they ran a story (linked below) explaining how the MHA Nation in ND were using flared gas to heat greenhouses through the winter months. Just one of many ways in which this otherwise wasted energy can be put to good and profitable use.
https://www.nativebusinessmag.com/the-mha-nation-wants-to-feed-the-world-in-a-food-sovereignty-revolution/
Convicted One Instead of going to all the trouble to supercool and containerize it, just pump it into a nearby gasometer, and pull process gas from that?
Instead of going to all the trouble to supercool and containerize it, just pump it into a nearby gasometer, and pull process gas from that?
This inspired an even more outlandish idea... Methane is lighter than air and thus could be used as a lifting gas in Zeppelins...
I remember a tour of the low temperature lab at UCB, where the prof mentioned that the campus had its own air liquifying plant. I would imagine that a small scale methane liquification plant would be easier to make due to the higher critical temperature of methane than nitorgen. OTOH, the plant would likely need some cooling water.
Overmod Many more problems could have been avoided from the get-go if the governor had had the courage to tell the oil companies at the very beginning of the Bakken play--when oil prices were sky-high--that they could not send a single drop of oil by rail until full degassing was performed. This would relatively easily have been expanded to likely solution of the actual gas byproduct issue requiring the flaring. And yes, they would have found a way.
Many more problems could have been avoided from the get-go if the governor had had the courage to tell the oil companies at the very beginning of the Bakken play--when oil prices were sky-high--that they could not send a single drop of oil by rail until full degassing was performed. This would relatively easily have been expanded to likely solution of the actual gas byproduct issue requiring the flaring.
And yes, they would have found a way.
The degassing oder was issued while the oil prices were still high. It resulted in more flaring. The pipeline companies won't build more gas lines until the producers sign take-or-pay contracts, where the producer has to pay for so much line capacity whether he uses it or not. Gas is usually the first thing to deplete in a new field. The alternatives suggested in the DOE report will take time to develope.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Convicted One Sounds like a great idea. But as your linked story points out, the well operators often consider it "uneconomic" to do the right thing. This problem is solved by it not making it the well operators that would have to do the work, make it the refiners, were a lot of flaring takes place as already. If I was a well operator I'd invest in storage facilities, a lot of storage facilities at the well farms. Enough to not have to flare excess NG, but that's just me(if you need a reason, simple, with storage you always have NG available for spikes in demand and can then fill in for those that don't have the capacity).
Convicted One Sounds like a great idea. But as your linked story points out, the well operators often consider it "uneconomic" to do the right thing.
Sounds like a great idea. But as your linked story points out, the well operators often consider it "uneconomic" to do the right thing.
This problem is solved by it not making it the well operators that would have to do the work, make it the refiners, were a lot of flaring takes place as already.
If I was a well operator I'd invest in storage facilities, a lot of storage facilities at the well farms. Enough to not have to flare excess NG, but that's just me(if you need a reason, simple, with storage you always have NG available for spikes in demand and can then fill in for those that don't have the capacity).
There are hundreds of thousands of oil & gas wells. Wells are remote from refinery operations. Refiners would not be interested.
There is no economical way to store natural gas as a gas in a well production facility.
tree68 Murphy Siding Any way to use the gas to make electricity? See my post about the landfill.
Murphy Siding Any way to use the gas to make electricity?
Any way to use the gas to make electricity?
See my post about the landfill.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Widespread flaring has done a number on my home state of North Dakota. That whole problem could have been avoided from the get-go if the governor had had the courage to tell the oil companies at the very beginning of the Bakken play--when oil prices were sky-high--that they could not extract a single drop of oil until the gas byproduct issue was solved. They would have found a way.
Overmod SD60MAC9500 Though when domestic NG production increases I see the devisement of a system to capture and make economical use of waste NG. Micro-Scale Liquification could be that enabler to make it cost effective. This is interesting to me as it has comparable footprint to reverse-Brayton liquefiers (and has the same modular design for easy 'containerized' transport and pad setup). I have no firsthand knowledge whether the Micro-Scale system is cheaper to buy or maintain or has better uptime or reliability, and would be interested to learn. I think, though, that the smaller-scale recovery option of choice is going to involve a variant of BOG management with LN2 (which is relatively easily generated and can itself be boiled off with neither emissions nor carbon penalty from heat exchangers). Similar small-scale traps perhaps with modern-generation reliquefiers for the nitrogen are probably the best solution for LNG tank cars when those become fully 'homologated' in this country -- I don't really know why such a good idea has seen so much Government foot-dragging.
SD60MAC9500 Though when domestic NG production increases I see the devisement of a system to capture and make economical use of waste NG. Micro-Scale Liquification could be that enabler to make it cost effective.
This is interesting to me as it has comparable footprint to reverse-Brayton liquefiers (and has the same modular design for easy 'containerized' transport and pad setup). I have no firsthand knowledge whether the Micro-Scale system is cheaper to buy or maintain or has better uptime or reliability, and would be interested to learn.
I think, though, that the smaller-scale recovery option of choice is going to involve a variant of BOG management with LN2 (which is relatively easily generated and can itself be boiled off with neither emissions nor carbon penalty from heat exchangers). Similar small-scale traps perhaps with modern-generation reliquefiers for the nitrogen are probably the best solution for LNG tank cars when those become fully 'homologated' in this country -- I don't really know why such a good idea has seen so much Government foot-dragging.
Micro-Scale lead times are roughly 60-80 minutes. After setup LNG can begin the process of liquification within 20-30 min. Expected unit output depending on capacity is looking about 10,000-30,000 Gal. per day. Here's another unit on the market by Galileo which uses the BOG system you mentioned above.
tree68 Another possible solution is to convert the energy to something more useful, at the site. Our local regional landfill used to flare off the methane generated by the waste. There are still signs along the road warning of same. Now they use the methane to fuel gensets, and sell the electricity to the local utility. I know of at least one other such arrangement, and I know of an ambulance squad that gets their gas from a nearby landfill (to them) as well. In addition, one landfill uses the waste heat from the gensets to heat and cool greenhouses in which are grown some one fifth of the tomatoes consumed in NY state. Our local landfill considered that, but has not moved forward with it. The only issue the local facility encountered was that the existing power transmission lines could not handle the power they would be generating. Once that was remedied, it was a go.
Another possible solution is to convert the energy to something more useful, at the site.
Our local regional landfill used to flare off the methane generated by the waste. There are still signs along the road warning of same.
Now they use the methane to fuel gensets, and sell the electricity to the local utility. I know of at least one other such arrangement, and I know of an ambulance squad that gets their gas from a nearby landfill (to them) as well.
In addition, one landfill uses the waste heat from the gensets to heat and cool greenhouses in which are grown some one fifth of the tomatoes consumed in NY state. Our local landfill considered that, but has not moved forward with it.
The only issue the local facility encountered was that the existing power transmission lines could not handle the power they would be generating. Once that was remedied, it was a go.
I've been following this tech since it's announcement. It's called Tri-Gen check out the video. This would be perfect for landfill gas.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JRIf I was a well operator I'd invest in storage facilities, a lot of storage facilities at the well farms. Enough to not have to flare excess NG, but that's just me
Well, you've got my vote.
Wonder if it makes any sense for these well operators to diversify with energy intensive subsidiary industries? Perhaps an adjacent aluminum recycling plant, or a glass recycling plant?
tree68In addition, one landfill uses the waste heat from the gensets to heat and cool greenhouses in which are grown some one fifth of the tomatoes consumed in NY state.
That sounds to me like an elegant solution. .....but then I really like tomatoes.
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