The "VR diesels" deserve more explicit recognition than they're getting, though. Perhaps they were diseasels in 1962 but they're legitimately historic now. One of my favorite memories was being invited to ride the cab of one of those World Locomotive Alcos between Melbourne and Albury in mid-1977; that was the first place I saw one of those radial-engine-style air compressors. (I had some fun getting back into the train at Albury, though; the car attendant had forgotten I was up there and, had he not been taking a smoke break at the forward vestibule, I might not have gotten back aboard ... with no coat, in dead of winter (in fact, I think it was actively snowing), in the midst of a yard I did not know and had no good reason to be in...)
The DL500s didn't run to Melbourne that often, since VR was effectively all EMD so NSW EMDs were assigned to through runs when possible. In 1962 all trains were worked by the A16Cs....
These were effectively an SD9 in a carbody the length of an FL9, but lower and narrower (the width all came out of the centre cab window pillar). This photo is from Weston Langford's site, which is truly amazing for its coverage, although the colour hasn't lasted as well as the movie film I linked earlier.
Here is the Spirit at Demondrille:
and a still of 3801 heading south on the last Melbourne Limited
In 1991, the last "Intercapital Daylight" ran and was worked through by two DL500s in both directions. This train was timed to run between Sydney and Melbourne in 12h 30m, about the time the two 38s worked the Spirit from Albury to Sydney. I had always said that I would never try to chase the train, although I successfully did so as far as Cootamundra and back to Gunning. I remember one of the following cars was a Porsche 928, which arrived too late at a photo location, so the driver did a handbrake turn and headed off sounding like a Formula 1 racing car...
Peter
I have gotten that Woollongong thing in my head in conjunction with the original R class 'regular commuter service' attempt, and for some reason can't stop doing it.
I had not realized that some Saturday runs were On Again in the last couple of years. (Or that Kelly Anderson's Strasburg is showing ads in the Warrnambool Standard's online newspaper site!)
Might be interesting to have a precise timeline of the standard-gauge linkups in Australia, such as the connection via Broken Hill; my knowledge of these is only fragmentary but they're important. As noted, the importance of the 1962 train is that it was the first standard-gauge Spirit of Progress.
Overmod 54light15 Is standard gauge in Australia 3' 6"- cape gauge? Or is it what we have in North America? New steam locomotives in 1962? Standard gauge is Aus is the same as here, 4'8.5" nominal. There's Cape gauge to the north, in Queensland, and broad gauge in Victoria to the south (cf. the postwar Hudsons running Saturdays to Woollongong). The C38s were far from new in 1962 -- but still great.
54light15 Is standard gauge in Australia 3' 6"- cape gauge? Or is it what we have in North America? New steam locomotives in 1962?
Standard gauge is Aus is the same as here, 4'8.5" nominal. There's Cape gauge to the north, in Queensland, and broad gauge in Victoria to the south (cf. the postwar Hudsons running Saturdays to Woollongong).
The C38s were far from new in 1962 -- but still great.
The Spirit of Progress train had run on the broad gauge to Albury since 1937, but only the baggage cars on the standard gauge train dated back that far, most of the cars being post WWII with a couple being new in 1962. The train in the video was being moved from Melbourne to Sydney to take up regular service and was hauled by a VR diesel over the new standard gauge track. The steam locomotives took over in Albury to run the train to Sydney.
I watched the train arrive in Sydney (in the dark), having inspected a "Southern Aurora" set during the Sunday afternoon.
The lead locomotive in the video, 3830 was completed in 1949.
Five locomotives were ordered in 1939 but not completed until 1945 due to the war. You could make a movie about their roller bearings being shipped from Sweden to Australia, I think via Iran.... These five locomotives were streamlined in the style of the New Haven I-5.
To meet wartime traffic, 25 cast frames were ordered from GSI and delivered in 1943 but the first loco was only delivered in December 1945.
While the gauge is the same as the USA, clearances are similar to those in Europe and axle loadings were significantly lower than the USA.
A note on town names. The two R class 4-6-4s ran to Warrnambool on the south coast of Victoria. Wollongong is an indudtrial city on the east coast south of Sydney.
3801 (seen early in the video) has just been restored to working order and would be running now except for virus concerns. 3830 is awaiting a boiler overhaul.
One of the two broad gauge 4-6-4s used on the Warrnambool trains, R766, was converted to standard gauge and it too was expected to run trials in April, but didn't.
Say, Phoebe Vet, what is the story on progress in moving the Southern station back to Trade Street?
On one of my few trips to Charlotte lately, I wondered if the benches in the current station had been used in the old station--they looked to be well-worn (though, perhaps about 50 years in the new station had worn them down).
Johnny
Phoebe Vet seppburgh2 While still smarting from the good nuns knocking it into my head 55+ years ago, the subject is the light breeze. The action is on the warm sunbeam which is on the abandoned right away. All these years I have thought that I was resposible for the grumpy Nuns.
seppburgh2 While still smarting from the good nuns knocking it into my head 55+ years ago, the subject is the light breeze. The action is on the warm sunbeam which is on the abandoned right away.
While still smarting from the good nuns knocking it into my head 55+ years ago, the subject is the light breeze. The action is on the warm sunbeam which is on the abandoned right away.
All these years I have thought that I was resposible for the grumpy Nuns.
Don't worry Phoebe Vet, Sister Sherman Tank and her colleagues weren't your fault, any more than they were mine.
Yeah, I couldn't log in for 24 hours or so myself, e-mailed Customer Service and they got it fixed. E-mailed them back thanking them, least I could do.
Miningman Toronto folk think the North is Muskoka , which is not even approaching Northern Ontario. They fly to Vancouver and sip their tea in Victoria and pay no heed to everything in between.
Toronto folk think the North is Muskoka , which is not even approaching Northern Ontario. They fly to Vancouver and sip their tea in Victoria and pay no heed to everything in between.
There's the elistist attitude I'm thinking of. So very American. Well, like the worst kind of Americans, who unfortunately tend to make themselves very prominent.
Miningman Luv Quebec and the people, way more Canadian than you think.
Luv Quebec and the people, way more Canadian than you think.
Except for the separatists.
Overmod is spot on about the French being the OG Canadians. Well, except for the First Nations.........
Miningman So many folks from England didn't even have Canadian citizenship, they were living in 'the colonies'. I heard that a dozen times as a kid right from the horses mouth. Then I would look around and see the Union Jack flying at the school, the post office, the fire hall, city hall... and there's the Queen looking down on me all frumpy and grumpy everywhere you went. Good friggin grief!!! It's no wonder the French pushed back. The military bases flew the Red Ensign, not a Union Jack. Parliament buildings had both. Here and there you would see one. As a kid it was stifling and ridiculous.
So many folks from England didn't even have Canadian citizenship, they were living in 'the colonies'. I heard that a dozen times as a kid right from the horses mouth. Then I would look around and see the Union Jack flying at the school, the post office, the fire hall, city hall... and there's the Queen looking down on me all frumpy and grumpy everywhere you went. Good friggin grief!!! It's no wonder the French pushed back.
The military bases flew the Red Ensign, not a Union Jack. Parliament buildings had both. Here and there you would see one.
As a kid it was stifling and ridiculous.
No wonder indeed. French Canadiens were viewed as second-class citizens for much of this country's British-controlled history, and deliberately excluded from many positions of prominence and authority.
Great stuff about Australia. And I've long considered Pink Floyd to be one of my favourite bands.
I would have replied sooner, but have been unable to log in for the past couple days.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
54light15Is standard gauge in Australia 3' 6"- cape gauge? Or is it what we have in North America? New steam locomotives in 1962?
Is standard gauge in Australia 3' 6"- cape gauge? Or is it what we have in North America? New steam locomotives in 1962?
M636CAnyway, here's the train...
And, which he didn't explicitly mention, many shots of one of the greatest of all steam locomotives, the C38 class.
Of course there was a lot of immigration from the UK to Australia after WWII and the Navy had a lot of senior sailors and officers who had transferred from the RN. The ships were basically of British design until 1965 when we obtained our first destroyer from the USA..
One of my school friends was English, but one was Hungarian and one was the son of US Marine on local duty. Most of us were locals. We had a painting of the Queen in the main entrance at school, but we also had a number of reprodutions of landscapes by Albert Namatjira, pretty much the first recognised indigenous artist. Thinking back, that may have been fairly radical. I don't think the national flag was often flown at any of our schools.
The Union Flag would have been flown during the 1954 Royal Visit and I think it appeared in other official occasions not neccesarily connected to the UK in any way.
One use that should be of interest her is that crossed flags, the national flag and the Union flag appeared on the nameboard of the first Spirit of Progress on the standard gauge, through from Melbourne to Sydney. I've posted about this on other threads, although I only met the train in Sydney. But in retrospect, the use of the UK flag was unusual at the time, and was, I believe because the nameboard was designed, based on a much earlier one from the late 1940s when the UK flag was seen more often.
Anyway, here's the train, with some good shots of the headboard, with the UK flag on the left as viewed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4QXm6PH_lQ
Feel free to watch the whole video after checking out the nameboard.
MiningmanLuv Quebec and the people, way more Canadian than you think.
Of course they are. They named it. And their culture was 'there' first.
Of course, they were 'there first' in India, too, and look what that got them... although even if the only thing to come of it was expressions about 'bloody Poms' it would have been worth it.
M636C-- yes quite correct, the Scots and Irish were not like the English.
I learned all my Curling techniques, tricks and excellence from the Scots.
Nothing wrong with Toronto people either UNTIL the subject of America comes up, at which point one in ten will agree with me and take my side.
54light15I always wondered exactly where the "scuzzy" part was...
Alphabet City. Hell's Kitchen, before the regentrification. 42nd St district and Harlem in the 1970s. The South Bronx.
There were, and are the last time I was there (last summer), plenty of places from which Giselle could draw her willing workers. That's just part of the 'experience'.
Personally I've never had a problem once with Toronto, or Torontonians. On the other hand, I've never had a problem with the French, either ... which ought to be ominous. Perhaps arrogance calling to arrogance across the language barrier?
Can I say how much fun it is down here in Australia seeing two former colonies snapping at eachother and the old country....
I've been to Toronto and it seemed to me to be much the same as the rest of Canada to me (except of course Montreal, where I felt much less welcome than in Paris, France.) I really liked British Columbia although the RCMP seem to think railfans are a bit strange and in some of the more remote towns things are a little on the rough side.
I have been to New York City and I found it to be a bit chaotic, but less so on my second visit more than ten years later. I do mean to see upstate NY some time, if I live long enough...
I can think of a number of movies where New York City was isolated as prison or an isolation area for a disease (a bit close to home now?).
But to look at Miningman's comments:
I don't like the Monarchy, I don't like stuffy Brits ( way way worse when I was growing up, dangerous with their caste system still functioning in their tiny pointy heads) , I'm glad the Union Jack isn't flying anymore all around every school and government buildings, as a kid I thought where's our flag? The Red Ensign, where? Cripes it even has the Union Jack in it, not good enough for ya?, the freakin Queen portrait everywhere you go ( mostly gone now), and I'm glad as can be we have Americans as our only real neighbour, luv 'em.
Of course, the Brits aren't all the same any more than Americans or Canadians or even Australians.
Most of the characteristics Miningman complains of are those of the English.
The Welsh, Scots and (Northern) Irish all have their own, not always endearing, character and foibles.
For what it is worth, My paternal grandfather was from Aberdeen on the east coast of Scotland.
So that part of my family sounded more or less like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmELS03_4So
This group had three hits mostly unlike much of their other work which was a mix of Gospel and rabidly anti-English Scots Nationalism. (I think you'll have to buy the albums to hear that, it doesn't seem to have made it to youtube.)
I've been told that when speaking to someone from Glasgow my own speech reverts to strong East Coast Scots which isn't a big help since it is nothing like the language spoken in Glasgow.
Related to this subject, I was for several years the Royal Australian Navy representative on the Air Standardistion Committee's Working Party 30 on Engineering Standards and Data. this organisation included Australia, Canada, New Zealand, United Kingdom and United States. It was amazing to see how sitting at a table with the national flag in front of you brought out all of the behaviours associated with national sterotypes.
For example, "CAF" was usually rendered as "Canadian Air Force" rather than "Canadian Armed Forces" and the Canadian always said "don't worry about it" after an Australian or New Zealander corrected the error. And even the RAF people admitted that their lead representative was a bit pompous, bureaucratic, and not particularly competent.
At least Canada has a flag now. We still have the one from 1901. As recently as 1954, the Red Ensign was used as much as the Blue Ensign, but the Blue is the national flag now and the Red Ensign is flown only on merchant ships, if there are any Australian flagged ships now. The Navy kept flying the RN Ensign until 1967 (when I joined, so I've never served under the British White Ensign). I've never understood how Ottawa got all those ceremonial guards with red jackets while in Canberra we have no ceremonial guards at all, unless the President of the USA is visiting and they just wear green. I guess something happened between 1867 and 1901 that suggested that we didn't need ceremonial guards or maybe we just couldn't afford them.
But back to the real thread subject. Not even the English write their language better than the rest of us. The education system in the UK is, at times much like the musical "Another Brick in the Wall".
https://www.bing.com/search?q=youtube+another+brick+in+the+wall&cvid=33b32696c1084d52ac6c1128bfbd4e21&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=ACTS
Gee Toronto ain't so bad. I moved here 25 years ago from the U.S.A. and all I can say is that there is nowhere else on Earth that I can call my home. People in the R.O.C. (The rest of Canada) often have some damned stupid ideas about T.O. having never been here. Same as people in the States when they talk about New York having never been there.
My now ex-wife and I were in Melbourne, Florida on a vacation. People would ask, "Whur yew folks from?" We would answer, "New York." "Ooh, not the scuzzy part, are yuh?" We finally gave up and said that we were from Massachusetts and no one ever said a word about that.
My point is, Toronto to the R.O.C. is the same as New York is to the rest of the U.S.A.. I always wondered exactly where the "scuzzy" part was, the Hudson River valley? the Finger Lakes, the Southern tier, the Adirondacks, the fine beaches of Long Island or maybe midtown Manhattan?
Flintlock76Guess what the "Star-Spangled Banner" itself was made of. English wool! All 30 by 42 feet of it.
What was the rope Lenin said the capitalists were going to sell him made of? Likely some English content there, too... "nooses of the finest hemp", perhaps?
Someone bring up the failed attack on Baltimore that gave us "The Star-Spangled Banner?"
Ever hear the song the melody comes from, "To Anacreon In Heaven?"
Well, here it is, and a lovely arrangement too! Click on "show more" when the video comes up, the lyrics will show and you can sing along! I did!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAIdVKv84g
And here's another wild, ironic bit of trivia. Guess what the "Star-Spangled Banner" itself was made of. English wool! All 30 by 42 feet of it.
The worst side of Toronto aspires to be American by imitating the worst facet of the U.S, in being self-centred* and always trying to take centre* place on the national or world stage.
*At least they spell things right, and pronounce "Z" properly.......
Like the U.S, there is far more to Toronto than the bad, egotistical side that I find so obvious. It is a beautiful, historic city with a great rail network. And it has many great people.
I suppose reading hockey histories about how Harold Ballard tried to prevent the NHL's expansion to other Canadian cities must have left one heckuva bad taste in my mouth!
Johnny-- The Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire would sell you a pie at a bake sale, nothing more.
Not only is New Brunswick the only province with official Bilingualism there are a lot of folks there that have dual Canadian- American citizenship.
Dude-- What the heck are you talking about? Toronto is ground zero for anti-American sentiment and always has been. The only Americans they adore are fleeting baseball and basketball players and that only when they are here and Anti Trump celebrities who find a willing audience to lap up their fire and brimstone such as the latest hate speech by Robert De Niro.
Inevitably at some get together be it a Mining Convention or a private gathering I am forced to say " well, I luv Americans and I'm glad as can be they are our neighbour"... in Toronto I am immediately set upon and ostracized.
Tell that to some flake from Mississauga and see how they react. You can simply walk away as they choke on their freakin crumpet or whatever mangia cake they think is fabulous.
Overmod SD70Dude Even after you guys burned Toronto (before it was called that, and well before it aspired to be American). You must really, really, really not like Toronto to write such a thing. That's been a more notoriously 'anti-Yankee' city than most anything in the world; in fact they still have special honors for Loyalist families who keep the old distinction alive.
SD70Dude Even after you guys burned Toronto (before it was called that, and well before it aspired to be American).
You must really, really, really not like Toronto to write such a thing. That's been a more notoriously 'anti-Yankee' city than most anything in the world; in fact they still have special honors for Loyalist families who keep the old distinction alive.
Am I that obvious?
As a whole, modern Toronto considers itself to be the centre of Canada (it's more like a black hole), and we should all bow down to it and their sports teams. If Canada has an ego, it is definitely found in Toronto.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of nice people there (I have relatives from the area), but it is truly different from the rest of the country.
New Brunswick is the only truly bilingual province, and has fallen on tough economic times in recent decades. But they don't complain, and it is indeed a very nice and hospitable place, just like the rest of Atlantic Canada.
I wonder what the feeling towards us is in New Brunswick. I understand that Loyalists from Boston and its environs were moved to that area and settled there after the cannon captured at Fort Ticonderoga were placed on a hill overlooking Boston--putting the British army there in a rather dangerous situation.
When my wife and I spent three nights in New Brunswick 11 years ago, we were not set upon by the natives.
SD70DudeEven after you guys burned Toronto (before it was called that, and well before it aspired to be American).
And, indeed, why should they not? A very great many of the eggs broken to make the omelet of the United States belonged to people who supported the King and were dispossessed and summarily run out of town as a result. As with the Confederates mentioned in passing, old 'causes' can be carried many generations...
BaltACD SD70Dude BaltACD SD70Dude And why am I not surprised that butchering the Queen's English is far from a new thing. The Brits butchered more than just the Queen's English from time to time. You will surely recall a certain nearby city with a House that is now White. You're welcome. And I recall that same force thinking they would just sail up the Chesapeake Bay to capture Baltimore and ended up creating the National Anthem of the USA with their failue.
SD70Dude BaltACD SD70Dude And why am I not surprised that butchering the Queen's English is far from a new thing. The Brits butchered more than just the Queen's English from time to time. You will surely recall a certain nearby city with a House that is now White. You're welcome.
BaltACD SD70Dude And why am I not surprised that butchering the Queen's English is far from a new thing. The Brits butchered more than just the Queen's English from time to time.
SD70Dude And why am I not surprised that butchering the Queen's English is far from a new thing.
The Brits butchered more than just the Queen's English from time to time.
You will surely recall a certain nearby city with a House that is now White.
You're welcome.
And I recall that same force thinking they would just sail up the Chesapeake Bay to capture Baltimore and ended up creating the National Anthem of the USA with their failue.
Again, you're welcome!
Overmod SD70Dude You will surely recall a certain nearby city with a House that is now White. A matter that, as I recall, was marked with a relative lack of butchery.
SD70Dude You will surely recall a certain nearby city with a House that is now White.
A matter that, as I recall, was marked with a relative lack of butchery.
We've always been too polite. Even after you guys burned Toronto (before it was called that, and well before it aspired to be American).
The British commander, George Cockburn, wanted to destroy the main D.C. newspaper, which had published a series of rude articles about him. In addition to demolishing its building, he had the troops remove and destroy every single letter "C" from the printing press, so that the American writers could not spell his name.
I have the impression that Congreve rockets were the model for the skyrockets that we shot off many years ago.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Banastre Tarleton! "Bloody Ban." "The Butcher of The Waxhaws." "Tarleton's Quarter." Hoo boy.
The most hated man in the American South, at least until a gent named Sherman came for a visit 80 years later.
Then Tarleton was forgotten until the Mel Gibson film "The Patriot" reminded everybody.
By the way, there was nothing in that movie that didn't happen somewhere, sometime, during the American Revolution. Trust me.
Old "Bloody Ban's" little bit of vandalism on the grand staircase in Carter's Grove Plantation near Williamsburg is still there to be seen and felt, or at least it was until the place went back into private ownership.
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