1000 carloads is a very low end estimate, there is almost certainly more than that. Either way, 1000 carloads isn't nothing, and it shouldn't be walked away from. The Ivaco mill is a rather large operation, and so is Rideau Bulk. They should be able to make a profit on this, especially since they don't have to maintain much track, and the track that they do own, is rather cheap to maintain as it is flat, with few crossing and no bridges.
ttrraaffiicc SD70Dude The portion of the Cayuga Sub in question has multiple large bridges which have likely suffered from deferred maintenance for years. Less than 5 years ago, CN invested almost a million dollars to rehab the Cayuga sub. It is in decent shape.
SD70Dude The portion of the Cayuga Sub in question has multiple large bridges which have likely suffered from deferred maintenance for years.
Less than 5 years ago, CN invested almost a million dollars to rehab the Cayuga sub. It is in decent shape.
A couple million is about the amount you would spend to replace the worst, and only the worst ties on a line of that length, and maybe buy some ballast and fund a few urgent repairs.
If the bridges require significant work at least one zero, maybe two, needs to be added to the maintenance budget.
The deferred maintenance probably would have started when CN still owned the Cayuga Sub, and would have continued under Trillium.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
ttrraaffiicc Cayuga subdivision, BC Rail, CN in Ottawa, and Huron Central.
Cayuga subdivision, BC Rail, CN in Ottawa, and Huron Central.
I was going to comment on this earlier, but forgot.
These lines have something in common: They all once hosted large amounts of through traffic, which has since disappeared for a variety of reasons. And the remaining local traffic has declined to the point where they are no longer profitable.
The Cayuga Sub and Ottawa Valley lines can be discussed together, since they have both suffered greatly from the decline of manufacturing in North America over the past 50 years. The Cayuga Sub also formerly hosted Wabash (later N&W, then NS) through freights between Detroit and Buffalo. When Wabash became part of N&W along with the Nickel Plate, most of this through traffic moved south of the border, which also avoided the costly and time-consuming Detroit River ferries.
What is now the Huron Central Railway was once part of a CP-Soo through route from Montreal to the Twin Cities, and ultimately to the CP transcontinental mainline in western Saskatchewan. The key industries along this route were mining, forestry, and the massive steel mill at Sault Ste Marie, all of which have declined in recent years. And the through traffic disappeared many years ago.
The section of the former BC Rail in question, between Exeter and Squamish, is Canada's Tennessee Pass. It is a tough piece of railroad, traversing rugged territory that is prone to rockslides while also having 2%+ grades in both directions, including the torturous Kelly Lake Hill north of Lillooet, which I believe is the longest sustained grade over 2% in North America, at over 30 miles if I recall correctly. It is no wonder that CN diverted most through traffic between Prince George and Vancouver away from this route.
The real crime here is the manner in which BC Rail was sold to CN (officially it's a very long term lease) by the Province.
1. Cannot freight service to Ottawa be maintained by CN and/or CP using VIA-owned trackage? Like P&W, NS, and CSX on Amtrak?
2. Ottawa without rail freight service? Well, Annapolis, Capitol of Maryland, home of the USA Naval Academy, parallel, without freight or passenger service.
That is P&W, NS, and CSX on Amtrak's NEC.
Also maintained or restored freight service to Ottawa.
Freight service to Annapolis, MD, was via the Baltimore and Annapolis, earlierl the Baltimore Washington and Annapolis. 1948 photo in Annapolis:
daveklepper 1. Cannot freight service to Ottawa be maintained by CN and/or CP using VIA-owned trackage? Like P&W, NS, and CSX on Amtrak?
CN gets to the Ottawa area from Montreal with running rights on the VIA-owned Alexandria Sub (which VIA bought after CN tried to abandon it some years ago). The lines up for abandonment only see freight, and not much if the carloading numbers are to be believed.
SD70Dudeand not much if the carloading numbers are to be believed.
It is actually fairly substantial, and a shortline could easily do well in Ottawa. What surprises me is that the Hawkesbury spur is being abandoned, as the Ivaco mill is not only quite large, but also could easily be serviced from Coteau. In addition, Nylene Canada in Arnprior owns and maintains the track from Ottawa to their plant because they would not be able to bring caprolactam to their plant any other way. If there is no freight railroad in Ottawa, they could be forced to shut down.
The question I have, is if CN wants to end operations in the city, why haven't they filed a formal notice of discontinuance and stopped running 589? If they don't want the business in Ottawa and the lines are reclassified to discontinue, why keep running there for nearly 2 years? Why have they not picked up their ball and gone home?
Here's a pretty good Canadian rail map:
https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/
From 'flying over' the route on Google Earth it appears that Nylene is the only rail customer left west of Maxville (save for occasional equipment moves to Ottawa Transit and the National Research Council), unless there is transloading going on at Walkley Yard. That's a long, long way to go for just one customer, even if VIA and the customer own and maintain the track such a run would require a dedicated crew.
The fact that CN is still operating here means that Nylene will be getting charged an arm and a leg for this service, and as long as they continue to be fine with paying the rate this operation should continue.
I suspect CN may put some of these lines on the list simply to hedge their bets around future declines in traffic, to squeeze customers for higher rates, or to try and 'encourage' local municipalities to buying them.
You'll notice that the Foothills and Mountain Park Subdivisions are also on the list, this is the Alberta Coal Branch. Despite the planned shutdown of one of the two coal mines this year those lines will still host a healthy amount of unit train traffic for decades to come. I'm sure CN has no real intention of abandoning them, and yet they are on the list.
Ottawa is a large city with minimal industry but a substantial consumer market just the same. A population of a million plus does consume alot.. not sure why CN or CP couldn't tap into the substantial inbound freight volumes. Trucking to Ottawa is expensive due to the lack of outbound volumes.. rates have to include a bounce to a better freight area.. and that ain't Montreal. I move loads out of the GTA to Ottawa occasionally.. and I always quote it round trip. Sometimes.. rarely enough.. I do get something out of there and it works out well, but most of the time I'm glad just to get an empty truck back out.
Sometimes operational cuts are self perpetuating... i.e if Ottawa had a robust rail presence with robust backoffice sales support there likely would be alot of freight at least moving into the City. Build it and they will come? Maybe keep it.. build it up and hire good freight sales people to sell sell sell..
Just to be clear.....all tracks are NOT being removed through Ottawa. VIA owns most of the 230km route now from near Coteau on CN's Montreal<>Toronto mainline......through Ottawa.....onto Smith's Falls then down the former CP line to return to the CN mainline again at Brockville. VIA has extensively rebuilt this route and is only going to see a continuing increase in service.
The Ottawa Station was relocated back in 1966 to a then suburban location about 2 miles from downtown and now is one of VIA's easiest to reach from all parts of the city. It's located on the new LRT line and before that was on the Bus Rapid Transit system. It also has it's own freeway interchange and lots of parking.
When the city doesn't want you around, it's pretty hard to expand your business.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
SD70DudeThe fact that CN is still operating here means that Nylene will be getting charged an arm and a leg for this service, and as long as they continue to be fine with paying the rate this operation should continue.
That's the way it's been since at least the 1980s. Nylene has been the only customer on the Renfrew sub for decades, but they can't ship caprolactam to their plant by truck. Nylene owns the line and is chartered under the name 'Arnprior Nepean Railway'. CN is contracted to operate on their behalf.
It is a shame Ottawa can't be like New York City, Long Island, or Northern New Jersey where industry is being encouraged to get direct rail service and intermodal capacity expanded. It is seen as relieving traffic congestion, helping the enviroment, and helping shippers save money over trucking, it also helps tax payers by saving on road damage. Hopefully a shortline can take over. I'm sure there are many business oportunities that exist that CN has no clue about or just is not interested in.
James Sanchez
The end of CN through-freight operations on the Capreol-Ottawa-Montreal route:
https://churcher.crcml.org/Circle_Articles/Article_Farand09.html
Brent, ON is here. Pretty remote place for an AFHT:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Brent,+ON,+Canada/@46.0333321,-78.4920878,2200m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x4cd6394280185239:0xef6fe9c562c42f79!8m2!3d46.0333329!4d-78.4833321
SD70Dude Some things to keep in mind. Modern Ottawa is a government town. Not much heavy industry. Historically it was the centre of the Ottawa valley's massive lumber, pulp and paper industry, but that has been decimated in recent years. The city is no longer on a main rail line, CN and CP both have abandoned their direct routes between Montreal and Sudbury. This track was already a shortline for some time before CN bought it back. Ottawa is about 125 miles from Montreal, and the consumer goods market there will be served by both railways from their Montreal-area intermodal terminals. And finally, placing a rail line on the "intent to discontinue" list is a first step in a three year long regulatory process. Once put on the list CN has to wait a year before doing anything, then they have to offer it for sale for a year, and finally it must be offered at the scrap value price to local governments. I'm not happy about this either, but none of this has happened overnight, or in a vacuum.
Some things to keep in mind.
Modern Ottawa is a government town. Not much heavy industry. Historically it was the centre of the Ottawa valley's massive lumber, pulp and paper industry, but that has been decimated in recent years.
The city is no longer on a main rail line, CN and CP both have abandoned their direct routes between Montreal and Sudbury. This track was already a shortline for some time before CN bought it back.
Ottawa is about 125 miles from Montreal, and the consumer goods market there will be served by both railways from their Montreal-area intermodal terminals.
And finally, placing a rail line on the "intent to discontinue" list is a first step in a three year long regulatory process. Once put on the list CN has to wait a year before doing anything, then they have to offer it for sale for a year, and finally it must be offered at the scrap value price to local governments.
I'm not happy about this either, but none of this has happened overnight, or in a vacuum.
samfp1943 It might be a good thing if the CN or CP addded a rate for Poliicians, in and out of Ottawa...."Boxed,Swinging or on the Hoof"
It might be a good thing if the CN or CP addded a rate for Poliicians, in and out of Ottawa...."Boxed,Swinging or on the Hoof"
We don't ship 'critters' anymore, for good reason.
samfp1943 Suggest they might want to decentralize the Government... Start by movng some government agencies to British Columbia or Alberta.
Suggest they might want to decentralize the Government... Start by movng some government agencies to British Columbia or Alberta.
Some of that stuff is already out west. One of the Canada Revenue Agency's (CRA, just like your IRS) big processing centre is in Winnipeg. So is the Mint (their Ottawa facility now only produces special coins).
Just wanted to put an update. I found this article from about a year ago:https://infodaffaires.com/manutention-ferroviaire-le-cn-pourrait-larguer-des-soulangeois/ It is in French, so you will have to translate it. It describes the situation and illustrates the seriousness of it. It does confirm my estimate that CN was getting at least 1000 carloads per year from the operation. In fact, it confirms that CN is getting 1000 carloads from just two industries alone. Just wanted to mention that there are other industries along the line that I forgot to list earlier, and those are MacEwen Agricentre in Maxville, Ontario, IKO Roofing in Hawkesbury, Ontario as well as two agricultural product loading sites in Saint-Polycarpe, Quebec. It is rather sad that things have ended up the way they have. There is a business case for rail in Ottawa, in fact many industries have recently invested to preserve their rail service. SynAgri in Twin Elm entirely rebuilt their siding in 2016, and Nylene has been doing quite a bit of maintenance work on the Arnprior Nepean Railway very recently as they are are not able to recieve raw materials by any other mode of transport. In my opinion, the situation with Ivaco in L'Orignal is hardest to believe. It is difficult to imagine that a steel manufacturer will be completely reliant on road transport. The number of extra trucks on the road as a result of this discontinuance is going to be rather high. Not a good thing for Ottawa and surrounding area, as well as the companies that use the rail service.
ttrraaffiicc Just wanted to put an update. I found this article from about a year ago:https://infodaffaires.com/manutention-ferroviaire-le-cn-pourrait-larguer-des-soulangeois/ It is in French, so you will have to translate it. It describes the situation and illustrates the seriousness of it. It does confirm my estimate that CN was getting at least 1000 carloads per year from the operation. In fact, it confirms that CN is getting 1000 carloads from just two industries alone. Just wanted to mention that there are other industries along the line that I forgot to list earlier, and those are MacEwen Agricentre in Maxville, Ontario, IKO Roofing in Hawkesbury, Ontario as well as two agricultural product loading sites in Saint-Polycarpe, Quebec. It is rather sad that things have ended up the way they have. There is a business case for rail in Ottawa, in fact many industries have recently invested to preserve their rail service. SynAgri in Twin Elm entirely rebuilt their siding in 2016, and Nylene has been doing quite a bit of maintenance work on the Arnprior Nepean Railway very recently as they are are not able to recieve raw materials by any other mode of transport. In my opinion, the situation with Ivaco in L'Orignal is hardest to believe. It is difficult to imagine that a steel manufacturer will be completely reliant on road transport. The number of extra trucks on the road as a result of this discontinuance is going to be rather high. Not a good thing for Ottawa and surrounding area, as well as the companies that use the rail service.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding ttrraaffiicc Just wanted to put an update. I found this article from about a year ago:https://infodaffaires.com/manutention-ferroviaire-le-cn-pourrait-larguer-des-soulangeois/ It is in French, so you will have to translate it. It describes the situation and illustrates the seriousness of it. It does confirm my estimate that CN was getting at least 1000 carloads per year from the operation. In fact, it confirms that CN is getting 1000 carloads from just two industries alone. Just wanted to mention that there are other industries along the line that I forgot to list earlier, and those are MacEwen Agricentre in Maxville, Ontario, IKO Roofing in Hawkesbury, Ontario as well as two agricultural product loading sites in Saint-Polycarpe, Quebec. It is rather sad that things have ended up the way they have. There is a business case for rail in Ottawa, in fact many industries have recently invested to preserve their rail service. SynAgri in Twin Elm entirely rebuilt their siding in 2016, and Nylene has been doing quite a bit of maintenance work on the Arnprior Nepean Railway very recently as they are are not able to recieve raw materials by any other mode of transport. In my opinion, the situation with Ivaco in L'Orignal is hardest to believe. It is difficult to imagine that a steel manufacturer will be completely reliant on road transport. The number of extra trucks on the road as a result of this discontinuance is going to be rather high. Not a good thing for Ottawa and surrounding area, as well as the companies that use the rail service. Seems like this would be a great time to replace those 1000 carloads with 4000 electric, driverless truckloads to show those railroads the future.
Seems like this would be a great time to replace those 1000 carloads with 4000 electric, driverless truckloads to show those railroads the future.
Of course those 1000 carloads are spread through the 365 day year so we are talking less than 3 carloads per day so there would only be the need for an additional 12 truckloads. Don't know of any railroad with 100 or so miles of track invested in less than 3 cars a day would continue in business.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murphy SidingSeems like this would be a great time to replace those 1000 carloads with 4000 electric, driverless truckloads to show those railroads the future.
Drones. Even better.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BaltACD Murphy Siding ttrraaffiicc Just wanted to put an update. I found this article from about a year ago:https://infodaffaires.com/manutention-ferroviaire-le-cn-pourrait-larguer-des-soulangeois/ It is in French, so you will have to translate it. It describes the situation and illustrates the seriousness of it. It does confirm my estimate that CN was getting at least 1000 carloads per year from the operation. In fact, it confirms that CN is getting 1000 carloads from just two industries alone. Just wanted to mention that there are other industries along the line that I forgot to list earlier, and those are MacEwen Agricentre in Maxville, Ontario, IKO Roofing in Hawkesbury, Ontario as well as two agricultural product loading sites in Saint-Polycarpe, Quebec. It is rather sad that things have ended up the way they have. There is a business case for rail in Ottawa, in fact many industries have recently invested to preserve their rail service. SynAgri in Twin Elm entirely rebuilt their siding in 2016, and Nylene has been doing quite a bit of maintenance work on the Arnprior Nepean Railway very recently as they are are not able to recieve raw materials by any other mode of transport. In my opinion, the situation with Ivaco in L'Orignal is hardest to believe. It is difficult to imagine that a steel manufacturer will be completely reliant on road transport. The number of extra trucks on the road as a result of this discontinuance is going to be rather high. Not a good thing for Ottawa and surrounding area, as well as the companies that use the rail service. Seems like this would be a great time to replace those 1000 carloads with 4000 electric, driverless truckloads to show those railroads the future. Of course those 1000 carloads are spread through the 365 day year so we are talking less than 3 carloads per day so there would only be the need for an additional 12 truckloads. Don't know of any railroad with 100 or so miles of track invested in less than 3 cars a day would continue in business.
zugmann Murphy Siding Seems like this would be a great time to replace those 1000 carloads with 4000 electric, driverless truckloads to show those railroads the future. Drones. Even better.
Murphy Siding Seems like this would be a great time to replace those 1000 carloads with 4000 electric, driverless truckloads to show those railroads the future.
Sounds like you'd need a fleet of drones the size of an Mi-10 or S-64 to handle that kind of job.
BaltACDOf course those 1000 carloads are spread through the 365 day year so we are talking less than 3 carloads per day so there would only be the need for an additional 12 truckloads. Don't know of any railroad with 100 or so miles of track invested in less than 3 cars a day would continue in business.
ttrraaffiicc BaltACD Of course those 1000 carloads are spread through the 365 day year so we are talking less than 3 carloads per day so there would only be the need for an additional 12 truckloads. Don't know of any railroad with 100 or so miles of track invested in less than 3 cars a day would continue in business. Those 1000 cars are from just two customers. There are nine customers for the Ottawa operation. The more likely total is probably in the range of 2000-5000 cars per year. CN maintains very little track in the area and mostly acts as an operator. The reason this discontinuance is so concerning is: A) There is evidently enough business to maintain this operation. The CN local in Ottawa operates 7 days per week. B) Many industries that use this service are reliant on rail service. The most famous example is Nylene in Arnprior. Since the 1980s, the industry has purchased and maintained this line because if service was discontinued, they would have no other option and would be forced to move or close. C) It leaves an entire large city without any rail service. While Ottawa doesn't have a lot of industry, it still does have some. A lot of freight is also transloaded here as well, so there is a lot that will be lost if freight completely discontinued. D) If service were to cease entirely (not be transferred to a shortline or contracted out) this will represent significant amount of business in an underdeveloped market that CN just walked away from. Freight that is still there, needing to be moved, but with no other option but to go by road. It's 2020, and this shouldn't be happening anymore. There is still room for optimism though. The lines were classed for discontinuance in fall of 2018. According to the process, they could have been much further down the road to cessation of service by now, but they aren't. According to CN's published three year plan, the only thing they have done is place the line on the discontinuance list. They haven't yet pursued any further action. Some rail lines have sat on the list for 20 years with no action. So what would be CN's motivation for doing this? Ottawa is expanding LRT, and if CN would like to earn some easy cash, a good way to do this would be to place the corridors that they own within the city for discontinuance in order to put the squeeze on the city and their customers. CN's likely trying to install a shortline in the area given that by all accounts, things are still business as usual. It is more of a wait and see right now.
BaltACD Of course those 1000 carloads are spread through the 365 day year so we are talking less than 3 carloads per day so there would only be the need for an additional 12 truckloads. Don't know of any railroad with 100 or so miles of track invested in less than 3 cars a day would continue in business.
Those 1000 cars are from just two customers. There are nine customers for the Ottawa operation. The more likely total is probably in the range of 2000-5000 cars per year. CN maintains very little track in the area and mostly acts as an operator. The reason this discontinuance is so concerning is: A) There is evidently enough business to maintain this operation. The CN local in Ottawa operates 7 days per week. B) Many industries that use this service are reliant on rail service. The most famous example is Nylene in Arnprior. Since the 1980s, the industry has purchased and maintained this line because if service was discontinued, they would have no other option and would be forced to move or close. C) It leaves an entire large city without any rail service. While Ottawa doesn't have a lot of industry, it still does have some. A lot of freight is also transloaded here as well, so there is a lot that will be lost if freight completely discontinued. D) If service were to cease entirely (not be transferred to a shortline or contracted out) this will represent significant amount of business in an underdeveloped market that CN just walked away from. Freight that is still there, needing to be moved, but with no other option but to go by road. It's 2020, and this shouldn't be happening anymore. There is still room for optimism though. The lines were classed for discontinuance in fall of 2018. According to the process, they could have been much further down the road to cessation of service by now, but they aren't. According to CN's published three year plan, the only thing they have done is place the line on the discontinuance list. They haven't yet pursued any further action. Some rail lines have sat on the list for 20 years with no action. So what would be CN's motivation for doing this? Ottawa is expanding LRT, and if CN would like to earn some easy cash, a good way to do this would be to place the corridors that they own within the city for discontinuance in order to put the squeeze on the city and their customers. CN's likely trying to install a shortline in the area given that by all accounts, things are still business as usual. It is more of a wait and see right now.
ttrraaffiiccWith the way CN is acting, it very much looks like trying to install a shortline in the area given that by all accounts, things are still business as usual. It is more of a wait and see right now.
I am looking forward to some sort of shortline in Ottawa. They could probably do some good work. The question is what model would it follow? Perhaps a municipal shortline like the Guelph Junction Railway, Orangeville Brampton Railway or Barrie Collingwood Railway? The other question is who? Quebec Gatineau Railway, Cando, maybe even Ontario Southland? Either way, it would warrant a trip to Ottawa to get some nice pictures and a bit of railfanning.
BaltACD Is Ottawa still the Capital of Canada? Does VIA serve Ottawa? Since the only industry in Washington DC is government, I guess CSX should close up shop since it is the only carrier serving the District! Not having the capital of a country not served by rail is a rather drastic statement.
Is Ottawa still the Capital of Canada? Does VIA serve Ottawa?
Since the only industry in Washington DC is government, I guess CSX should close up shop since it is the only carrier serving the District!
Not having the capital of a country not served by rail is a rather drastic statement.
If Long Bridge wasn't the only crossing of the Chesapeake/Potomac, they probably would. There are no rail-served businesses in the District of Columbia, unless someone is doing a great job of hiding. There's only a handful inside the Beltway in the first place, and half of those are on NS tracks.
NittanyLion BaltACD Is Ottawa still the Capital of Canada? Does VIA serve Ottawa? Since the only industry in Washington DC is government, I guess CSX should close up shop since it is the only carrier serving the District! Not having the capital of a country not served by rail is a rather drastic statement. If Long Bridge wasn't the only crossing of the Chesapeake/Potomac, they probably would. There are no rail-served businesses in the District of Columbia, unless someone is doing a great job of hiding. There's only a handful inside the Beltway in the first place, and half of those are on NS tracks.
Joseph Smith & Sons scrap yard is serviced from Benning Yard in DC. The industrial area that was the B&O's Eckington Yard and all the customers it served in the are have been replaced by FedEx and the DC Metro facilities. Likewise the cusomers on the Georgetown Branch were 'run off' and the branch abandoned in the early 80's.
Remember - CSX has been discouraging loose car railroading since its formation in 1980. The area where CSX placed their Dispatch Center in Halethorpe, MD was the site of the B&O's Fair of the Iron Horse in 1927 - afterwards it was developed into a industrial park - when I first went to Baltimore to work in 1970, the park had about 35 businesses that had rail service including A&P Supermarkets, Carlings Brewery and a number of others - total volume was approximately 100 cars a day in and outbound and the area was served by crews headquartered at Halethorpe around the clock. When the Dispatch Center was opened in 2008 there were about two customers left and they were serviced once a week by a yard crew out of Curtis Bay Yard about 10 miles away.
The scrap yard is across the line in Maryland. There's an asphalt plant not far from there either. I assume that CSX would find a way to serve them without Benning if they wanted to get rid of it, as a pure conjectural.
I have been thinking about the topic of this thread lately. It has now been two years since this operation was reclassified as discontinue. It has me wondering why there has been such little activity regarding its divestment and cessation of services. Things have continued as if nothing has changed and that surprises me a bit. If things had taken a normal timeline, then all freight service in Ottawa would have ended by now, but it hasn't. So what is CN up to, and what do they have planned? It's a good question and I'm not sure many people know the answer to it. As CN recently announced the sale of 850 miles of track in Wisconsin, Michigan and Ontario, could this be part of that? Details of this move have been scarce, especially surrounding what moves they plan to make in Ontario. So anything is possible.
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